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[_ Old Earth _] Another leg up against creationist fighting.

  • Thread starter Thread starter peace4all
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peace4all

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On this particular forum, I have not actually seen this technique used really (this specific example, but others like it) however it is pretty pertinit to show that science can figure out everything (besides the exact precise origin of the universe which religion cant explain anybetter (god always was, is the same as "matter always was"))

Scientists Finally Figure Out How Bees Fly

Sara Goudarzi
Special to LiveScience
LiveScience.com Tue Jan 10, 9:00 AM ET

Proponents of intelligent design, which holds that a supreme being rather than evolution is responsible for life's complexities, have long criticized science for not being able to explain some natural phenomena, such as how bees fly.

Now scientists have put this perplexing mystery to rest.

Using a combination of high-speed digital photography and a robotic model of a bee wing, the researchers figured out the flight mechanisms of honeybees.

"For many years, people tried to understand animal flight using the aerodynamics of airplanes and helicopters," said Douglas Altshuler, a researcher at California Institute of Technology. "In the last 10 years, flight biologists have gained a remarkable amount of understanding by shifting to experiments with robots that are capable of flapping wings with the same freedom as the animals."

Exotic flight

The scientists analyzed pictures from hours of filming bees and mimicked the movements using robots with sensors for measuring forces.

Turns out bee flight mechanisms are more exotic than thought.

"The honeybees have a rapid wing beat," Altshuler told LiveScience. "In contrast to the fruit fly that has one eightieth the body size and flaps its wings 200 times each second, the much larger honeybee flaps its wings 230 times every second."

This was a surprise because as insects get smaller, their aerodynamic performance decreases and to compensate, they tend to flap their wings faster.

"And this was just for hovering," Altshuler said of the bees. "They also have to transfer pollen and nectar and carry large loads, sometimes as much as their body mass, for the rest of the colony."

Try this!

In order to understand how bees carry such heavy cargo, the researchers forced the bees to fly in a small chamber filled with a mixture of oxygen and helium that is less dense than regular air. This required the bees to work harder to stay aloft and gave the scientists a chance to observe their compensation mechanisms for the additional toil.

The bees made up for the extra work by stretching out their wing stroke amplitude but did not adjust wingbeat frequency.

"They work like racing cars," Altshuler said. "Racing cars can reach higher revolutions per minute but enable the driver to go faster in higher gear. But like honeybees, they are inefficient."

The work, supervised by Caltech's Michael Dickinson, was reported last month in the Proceedings of the
National Academy of Sciences.

The scientists said the findings could lead to a model for designing aircraft that could hover in place and carry loads for many purposes such as diaster surveillance after earthquakes and tsunamis. They are also pleased that a simple thing like bee flight can no longer be used as an example of science failing to explain a common phenomenon.

Proponents of intelligent design, or ID, have tried in recent years to promote the idea of a supreme being by discounting science because it can't explain everything in nature.

"People in the ID community have said that we don't even know how bees fly," Altshuler said. "We were finally able to put this one to rest. We do have the tools to understand bee flight and we can use science to understand the world around us."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/space/20060110/ ... howbeesfly
 
peace4all said:
On this particular forum, I have not actually seen this technique used really (this specific example, but others like it) however it is pretty pertinit to show that science can figure out everything (besides the exact precise origin of the universe which religion cant explain anybetter (god always was, is the same as "matter always was"))

Scientists Finally Figure Out How Bees Fly

Sara Goudarzi
Special to LiveScience
LiveScience.com Tue Jan 10, 9:00 AM ET

Proponents of intelligent design, which holds that a supreme being rather than evolution is responsible for life's complexities, have long criticized science for not being able to explain some natural phenomena, such as how bees fly.

Now scientists have put this perplexing mystery to rest.

Using a combination of high-speed digital photography and a robotic model of a bee wing, the researchers figured out the flight mechanisms of honeybees.

"For many years, people tried to understand animal flight using the aerodynamics of airplanes and helicopters," said Douglas Altshuler, a researcher at California Institute of Technology. "In the last 10 years, flight biologists have gained a remarkable amount of understanding by shifting to experiments with robots that are capable of flapping wings with the same freedom as the animals."

Exotic flight

The scientists analyzed pictures from hours of filming bees and mimicked the movements using robots with sensors for measuring forces.

Turns out bee flight mechanisms are more exotic than thought.

"The honeybees have a rapid wing beat," Altshuler told LiveScience. "In contrast to the fruit fly that has one eightieth the body size and flaps its wings 200 times each second, the much larger honeybee flaps its wings 230 times every second."

This was a surprise because as insects get smaller, their aerodynamic performance decreases and to compensate, they tend to flap their wings faster.

"And this was just for hovering," Altshuler said of the bees. "They also have to transfer pollen and nectar and carry large loads, sometimes as much as their body mass, for the rest of the colony."

Try this!

In order to understand how bees carry such heavy cargo, the researchers forced the bees to fly in a small chamber filled with a mixture of oxygen and helium that is less dense than regular air. This required the bees to work harder to stay aloft and gave the scientists a chance to observe their compensation mechanisms for the additional toil.

The bees made up for the extra work by stretching out their wing stroke amplitude but did not adjust wingbeat frequency.

"They work like racing cars," Altshuler said. "Racing cars can reach higher revolutions per minute but enable the driver to go faster in higher gear. But like honeybees, they are inefficient."

The work, supervised by Caltech's Michael Dickinson, was reported last month in the Proceedings of the
National Academy of Sciences.

The scientists said the findings could lead to a model for designing aircraft that could hover in place and carry loads for many purposes such as diaster surveillance after earthquakes and tsunamis. They are also pleased that a simple thing like bee flight can no longer be used as an example of science failing to explain a common phenomenon.

Proponents of intelligent design, or ID, have tried in recent years to promote the idea of a supreme being by discounting science because it can't explain everything in nature.

"People in the ID community have said that we don't even know how bees fly," Altshuler said. "We were finally able to put this one to rest. We do have the tools to understand bee flight and we can use science to understand the world around us."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/space/20060110/ ... howbeesfly

So you are saying that humans are omniscient. Is that correct? :o If so, then that is delusions of granduer at its peak, my friend. "He who exalts himself will be humbled." That is a fact that you haven't appeared to grasp yet. Once again, when scientists agree with God they will always be right. But when they are delusional enough to think they know better than God, they will always be wrong and look foolish in the process. :-) When you understand that, you will know that all descendants are capable of breeding with their ancestors. Until then, you will make up reality.
 
Please re-read what I wrote. I stated that breakthroughs liek this prove that science can eventually discover everything, EXCEPT the origin of what created everything. We can get to a certain point, but no further. Religion doesnt try to get to that point, but puts an implicit deny statement anywhere that science can and will go.
 
When science shows how something works, I think that is great!


Now, can science tell us how instints work?



How does that little bird fly from Alaska to Hawaii having never been there and land in the same place as its parents?



(Can't remember the name of that little bird, but will try to get it over the next few days)
 
Khristeeanos said:
When science shows how something works, I think that is great!


Now, can science tell us how instints work?



How does that little bird fly from Alaska to Hawaii having never been there and land in the same place as its parents?



(Can't remember the name of that little bird, but will try to get it over the next few days)
science just hasn't figured it out yet. Science is working hard but there is just soo much to learn, and soo few that are willing to give up the easy way out, and try to solve it.

can god explain how a bird, created apparently 6'000 years ago, has, not evolved or anything, but has managed to magically have it built into their soul or something, to take nuts, into the streets of england, and set them down where cars will drive, so they are opened and they can eat the inside, AND, instead of getting hit by the car,s they wait for the cross walks to light?
 
Oh, I very much think that science can determine the working mechanisms behind just about everything. Science, as a system, is awesome. But it's performed by falliable humans, and there lies the sticking point.

Whether or not science can provide the answers is a very separate issue from whether the answers that science has currently given us are correct. Scientists have been mistaken about all manner of things in the past, and it's entirely possible that they're mistaken about all manner of things in the present.

While discovering how honeybees can fly is neat and all, it doesn't exactly prove evolution.
 
peace4all said:
Khristeeanos said:
When science shows how something works, I think that is great!


Now, can science tell us how instints work?



How does that little bird fly from Alaska to Hawaii having never been there and land in the same place as its parents?



(Can't remember the name of that little bird, but will try to get it over the next few days)
can god explain how a bird, created apparently 6'000 years ago, has, not evolved or anything, but has managed to magically have it built into their soul or something, to take nuts, into the streets of england, and set them down where cars will drive, so they are opened and they can eat the inside, AND, instead of getting hit by the car,s they wait for the cross walks to light?

I believe that things have changed a lot in the past 4,500 years since the Flood.

Noah took only a few dogs onto the arc and today we have hundreds of kinds of dogs, but they are still just dogs. Wolfs, Foxs, Poodles, etc have changed (evolved if you wish), but there are limits to how far they will change.


Oh, and I remembered the name of that bird.

It is called the Pacific Golden Plover

kolea1.jpg


link

The breeding habitat of Pacific Golden Plover is arctic tundra from northernmost Asia into western Alaska. They nest on the ground in a dry open area.

They are migratory and winter in south Asia and Australasia. A few winter in California and Hawaii, USA. This wader is a very rare vagrant to western Europe.

A bird hatches in Alaska and the parents fly to Hawaii and the kids eat enough to be able to make the trip as well.

Then they just take flight and somehow they find their way to the exact same spot their parents just landed.


Amazing! :P
 
Khristeeanos said:
but there are limits to how far they will change.
No there aren't.

lol

:roll:


Has science ever shown us where a dog comes from a non-dog?
 
ok, something weird just happened.

I posted the above post, but it gives credit to someone else. :o


What is going on here? :x lol
 
Science has never shown us a lot of thing.
When has science shown us that it's possible to leave the galaxy? never. Does that mean it's impossible? no. It's only logical that it is.
Same with evolution, a population of dogs hasn't been observed becoming a "non-dog" (whatever that means), but that doesn't mean it's impossible. Since we know the ways that organisms evolve, we can say that it is possible for dogs to become "non-dogs", because it's only logical. Saying that they can't is the illogical position, because there is no reason to think that.
 
So don't fight against God. Once again, if you agree with him, you'll always be right. When you disagree with him you'll always be wrong. What causes arguments, wars and hatred in the world come from people who hate and defy God and disobey Christ's teachings not to kill. As Paul puts it; "Their end will be what their actions deserve." :-)
 
answers

Khristeeanos said:
When science shows how something works, I think that is great!


Now, can science tell us how instints work?
Maybe not yet. Not knowing is not evidence of God.



How does that little bird fly from Alaska to Hawaii having never been there and land in the same place as its parents?
Read the answer above.



(Can't remember the name of that little bird, but will try to get it over the next few days)
 
reality

Heidi said:
So don't fight against God. Once again, if you agree with him, you'll always be right. When you disagree with him you'll always be wrong. What causes arguments, wars and hatred in the world come from people who hate and defy God and disobey Christ's teachings not to kill. As Paul puts it; "Their end will be what their actions deserve." :-)
The reality is you won't be right when you agree with the God of the bible. The bible has been shown many times to contain factual errors , contradictions, and unverified claims. One notable example is when the bible claims to those that gather and ask in his name for something to be granted and then it is not. It's a promise that is not kept. As to Christs teachings of not killing it is nothing new. Why do we need a supernatural being to tell us the obvious? Secondly that request was voiced much earlier by Buddha and others.
 
If by finally, you mean have known for about a decade then yeah.
 
heidi said:
Once again, if you agree with him, you'll always be right. When you disagree with him you'll always be wrong.

I would agree.

However, just as scientists are fallible, so are those who study the Word of God. History if full of people who read the Bible, made what they thought was the most straightforward interpretation, and were wrong. Not because they were stupid, but just because they had trouble 'thinking outside the box' in many cases. One example is Luther. A very learned person, but his opinion was that a moving, spinning earth was counter to Holy Scripture.

It seems to me that those today who insist that evolution could not have possibly happened the way science describes are making the same mistake as Luther. Yes, I agree there are many things we don't know about the history of life on earth, some of which we may never know. However, I don't see that we should throw out the reasonable explanations that science provides for the evidence we have simply because the explanation is not complete. This would be like releasing a convicted criminal because we didn't know all the details of his life (where he was born, whether he liked his sister or not) or even his crimes (did he use a screwdriver or a crow bar to pry open the door, did he have dinnere before robbing the bank, etc.).

Khristeeanos said:
Noah took only a few dogs onto the arc and today we have hundreds of kinds of dogs, but they are still just dogs. Wolfs, Foxs, Poodles, etc have changed (evolved if you wish), but there are limits to how far they will change.


True, we have not directly observed all the changes that we find reflected in the fossil record happening 'live', but again, this does not mean they did not occur. We might assume there are limits on how far species can change, but this would be an assumption unless we can actually show that said 'limits' cannot be broken.
 
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