swordofpeace
Member
I want to talk about our view of God, in practice. Again this is where theology hits the real life this is where the rubber hits the road, and it is just breaking through to me on a deeper level. I am talking about grace versus works, and earning God's love -or the false idea that that is what we can do.
I have noticed in my self I try to do good works and live a certain way to appease God. I am not sure that the message that we need to appease God is not taught through the pulpits and in religious circles. Who is spreading this teaching? The idea that we have to appease and propitiate our god, to make sacrifices for him- either in terms of good behavior or doing some good deed. We would want to do these things when we realize his love, because love conquers all, but we must out with the notion that God will love us more if we do them. That is false and unbiblical, I am sure. I think it probably came from pagan notions and ideas of God.
But what about the OT you say- the old testament. Well first I will talk about the New "testament", in that Christ was the sacrifice for all of our sins, so that takes that need away. He was the sacrifice for the whole world, not just a select few. But ok about the OT. They say God is love but he is also holy and just, and he needs his justice satisfied, and that is why Christ came. The cross is where love met justice. And then the view divides. The mainstream orthodoxy says that only those who follow Christ in this life and in a certain way will receive the atonement he won for them. It says that Christ died for the world, to take away the sins of the world. Does the world only include a select few? I know this can be interpreted in various ways.
But what about the God of the OT? Does he need to be appeased? Well god is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, he doesn't change. God does express his displeasure with his covenant nation of Israel. What we must understand is that the nation was a covenant nation. We must recognize this fact, they were to be a nation of priests to and for the world. And according to the bible they didn't live up to this standard. He does express displeasure- sometimes in very graphic ways- even vulgar ways- with his people, referring to their behavior often as fornication and adultery, and worse.
But my question is this: Did God stop loving him? Of course he chastises people. That is part of his nature, according to the bible, and as I wrote in yesterday's post about justice. Repeatedly we see a pattern in the bible, of God humbling people- often with judgement or chastisement or suffering- and then he offers them grace. Could they have received the grace, the mercy, the forgiveness and restoration, if they had not been humbled? We must interpret the old testament as a whole and not select out certain proof text passages. It says that Israel would be a blessing to the nations. The nations and world will learn righteousness. God had Assyria and Babylon take the nations of Israel and Judah away into exile but he brought them back. Restored them. He was teaching us his pattern, his way, his character. I dont' think he every stopped loving them. Moreover, they were a covenant nation, with high standards and expectations. He may have known that they can't meet the expectations. He may have had that planned all along. God's ways are higher than our ways and we can't understand them with the human mind until we are given to understand. Furthermore we must remember that the semitic languages are full of hyperbole and exaggeration. Particularly when we see words like "hate" and "utterly destroy" in the bible, we should be aware that this may be semitic exaggeration, and be willing to do language research on that subject.
If God didn't love us just so, even as sinners, why would he have sent his son? I express the statement again- I think the notion of appeasement as pagan. Israel was a covenant relation- designed I think to fail. The law was meant to show that nobody could keep it- to make sin visible and manifest. God's ways are higher than ours. So what they say about Israel- her failure to keep her sacrifices, must be seen in this light.
I think we have this appeasement virus in our hearts when we think of earning God's love. Or else we feel we are already loved by him, but then when we receive it, we want to make him love us even more, by doing more works. Either way, I imagine we may be limited in our true fruits of the spirit by our fear of him or misunderstanding- doing works in order to earn his favor and grace. I understand, that is how it works on the human plane. The only exception may be with children and their parents. But that's just it- we must see God as the ultimate Good Parent.
Now some of you may talk about hell now- but I would just say that may not be part of the bible. I mean the concept we have now about hell may actually not be scriptural. I want every post I write to stand alone and so I always have to keep referring to it without going into any depth. I don't want everything I write to be about the universal salvation theology which seems to have great scriptural support. I want to write also about other topics.
I want to talk about the story of the prodigal son. I think this deserves a look. But first I want to ask you about your own life? Do you ever do things that could be said to be done in order to win favor from God? Until very recently, I think I didn't do that much of that. The reason was that I didn't do that much of that when I was thinking about that subject. But when I let my mind think of other things, on a day to day functionality level, I had all of these unanalyzed behaviors and attitudes that were just that. And it is really not so much about the behavior but about the attitude.
Now God does chastise and 'judge' us Does that mean he doesn't love us? By no means. In fact where does it say- he disciplines us because he loves us! Parents speak as such. If they didn't love their kid, they'd let him do what he does without discipline. And sometimes that doesn't even work for real rebels. So the parent let's him go off and be prodigal.
I want to talk about that parable but in terms of the 'good' son. Was he being a 'good little boy' in order to win favor with his father? Then when the 'bad' son came back and was welcomed back, the 'good' son, who has spent years appeasing his father, became full of resentment and bitterness. Please, you don't want this to happen to you, do you?
People in the hell camp often sound like the 'good' son in some ways. They speak in the same language. For example, we all agree that if universalism is false, it shouldn't be taught or spread. But we are not sure, or we disagree which is fair. Many church leaders have held this view, and let us be brothers here. So then they say that it is dangerous. Dangerous huh? They say if people don't have the fear of hell, they will do this or that behavior, or they won't evangelize.
Do you see it? It is not so stark to be seen, but it is there.
They are saying that it doesn't matter if their conversion or their good behavior comes from fear and not love, as long as it comes. All will get in in the end. And another note- they make the doctrine about heaven one about 'getting in'. It has more to do with clubbing and such and such than it does about bringing the Kingdom of Heaven here down to earth, doing God's will here on earth. Granted, the bible does have that parable about people who were invited to the wedding feast, and they rejected the invitation, and so others were summoned. Or the virgins. True, the bible speaks of an exclusivity, an exclusive banquet. But people turn that around and make the gospel one story about 'getting in'. That means that everyone who comes to christianity with that attitude or understanding of the Gospel, it makes their motives essentially selfish, if they were to go about it that way. We know that people can't bear fruit without the spirit, and we know that people like Gandhi bore fruit, right? We know that Jesus talks about people going out to evangelize and making others even more the candidate for Gehenna. When salvation becomes a selfish ticket to heaven to escape a sinking ship, rather than help others around us, I think religion and attitude gets corrupted.
The "good" son and the one that became prodigal. Lets look a little more. What did the prodigal one feel when he came back, and received grace? how much must he have felt of the father's unconditional love and grace. I do have sympathy and understanding for the good son. In his confusion and fear he made himself in to a prisoner. And I can see him being full of envy- not necessarily for the days of prostitutes that the prodigal son had, but for the experience of the feeling of grace- and freedom.
Now how can the 'faithful' son come to feel that grace? he could talk to his father, watch him in his dealings, study his ways, test his grace and faith. This might be why the pattern of the bible is for nations and people to be made hard hearted, suffer judgement, and then come to their knees (every knee shall bow). Maybe it is necessary. Maybe it is necessary in all aspects of our lives. Maybe it is part of the process of sanctification and perfection, and we are all good in some areas of life and weak in others.
The Gospel of Appeasement. It produces religious hypocrites! Want to find the people with the most faith and understanding of Grace? I tell you where- go to an AA meeeting. I'm sure you'll find it there. Look at the bassist for Korn, who became christian. People who have done everything, drugs, etc.
Again, what about people who on this side of the grave didn't find Christ or whatnot. We are getting into theological waters that go beyond the scope of this blog. But I have no doubt that nothing can separate us from the love of God, neither life nor death, height or depth, distance or space, time or anything.
Start trusting God. Stop doing things to please him. Stop fighting our urges. Give into them. I am not saying sin. But I am saying stop being "virtuous" half-heartedly. Stop being lukewarm.
God must work this in people in their time and he is still working it in me. God's love I believe will someday melt every heart. Mine still needs loads of melting, I am sure. But it has melted a little recently. A long way to go but there it goes.
So should we give into lust if that's what we want to do, rather than not do it just to appease God? In other words- should we be an outwardly sinning prodigal son or should we be a 'good' son with resentment? What did Jesus say- he said if you look at a woman with lust you have committed adultery in your heart. I have no advice on this subject to give. I would just say that nothing can separate God's love from you and you don't have to earn it. My advice would just be to examine yourself, your doctrine and scripture.
One more thing I want to say, an interesting thought hit me. Many might misunderstand me or else understand what I am saying and criticize me nontheless- because I am using a foreign word. I don't believe in Karma, because I believe in grace. Grace cancels out Karma. Another word for Karma could just be justice- payback. But then I remembered the verses in the bible that talked about forgiving the debtor. But he didn't forgive his debtor, so the man who forgave the first debtor became angry at him, and threw him into prison until he paid every last penny. And we know there is justice- judgement on the earth. So maybe karma is actually biblical- but superceded by Grace under certain conditions- a melted heart for example. Isn't that the end he seeks anyways? So when the end is reached- the process is finished. So what's the point anymore. Give him grace. His knees have already bowed, his tongue has already confessed and praised. But if he persists in hard heartedness, he will pay back every penny. Karma? Again what if they die without being first broken? That is the only thing that separates the universalist from the hell camp people. Again, just to be clear, I mean God brings judgement through occurrences in the world, in our actual life, by bringing things about. I don't know how exactly. Maybe he plants desires in people's hearts which brings about problems and so on. Maybe he just lets sin run it's course. But I am not sure Karma is a false doctrine from India. Paying every last penny sounds a lot like Karma to me. But then there of course is grace.
Of course if you believe in Eternal Punishment, Hell, etc rather than Aionios Kolasis, gehenna, etc. you are going to see things differently and think I am twisting scripture. No, I am not twisting scripture, I am just understanding various terms and concepts in a different way, but still I am trying to see patterns in scripture and not use simple proof texts but look at the complete picture and pattern.
I could talk so much more about this subject. Just go to sleep tonight asking 'how have I tried to appease God' this last day? This last month? This last year? This last lifetime? And then ask the question- would I really want to serve him based on love? This will reveal one's true character. I know that people are sitting in the pews just getting sermons drummed into their minds week after week, without knowing the grace. Which son are you? There must be a third son- a faithful son having done his works in love- in the likeness of whom? In the likeness of... the father! That's what we should strive for, with a right understanding. But in the mean time, we must trust God to work out everything in his time, in our lives and in the world. Every day, if we get closer to his rest, what more do we need?
I have noticed in my self I try to do good works and live a certain way to appease God. I am not sure that the message that we need to appease God is not taught through the pulpits and in religious circles. Who is spreading this teaching? The idea that we have to appease and propitiate our god, to make sacrifices for him- either in terms of good behavior or doing some good deed. We would want to do these things when we realize his love, because love conquers all, but we must out with the notion that God will love us more if we do them. That is false and unbiblical, I am sure. I think it probably came from pagan notions and ideas of God.
But what about the OT you say- the old testament. Well first I will talk about the New "testament", in that Christ was the sacrifice for all of our sins, so that takes that need away. He was the sacrifice for the whole world, not just a select few. But ok about the OT. They say God is love but he is also holy and just, and he needs his justice satisfied, and that is why Christ came. The cross is where love met justice. And then the view divides. The mainstream orthodoxy says that only those who follow Christ in this life and in a certain way will receive the atonement he won for them. It says that Christ died for the world, to take away the sins of the world. Does the world only include a select few? I know this can be interpreted in various ways.
But what about the God of the OT? Does he need to be appeased? Well god is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, he doesn't change. God does express his displeasure with his covenant nation of Israel. What we must understand is that the nation was a covenant nation. We must recognize this fact, they were to be a nation of priests to and for the world. And according to the bible they didn't live up to this standard. He does express displeasure- sometimes in very graphic ways- even vulgar ways- with his people, referring to their behavior often as fornication and adultery, and worse.
But my question is this: Did God stop loving him? Of course he chastises people. That is part of his nature, according to the bible, and as I wrote in yesterday's post about justice. Repeatedly we see a pattern in the bible, of God humbling people- often with judgement or chastisement or suffering- and then he offers them grace. Could they have received the grace, the mercy, the forgiveness and restoration, if they had not been humbled? We must interpret the old testament as a whole and not select out certain proof text passages. It says that Israel would be a blessing to the nations. The nations and world will learn righteousness. God had Assyria and Babylon take the nations of Israel and Judah away into exile but he brought them back. Restored them. He was teaching us his pattern, his way, his character. I dont' think he every stopped loving them. Moreover, they were a covenant nation, with high standards and expectations. He may have known that they can't meet the expectations. He may have had that planned all along. God's ways are higher than our ways and we can't understand them with the human mind until we are given to understand. Furthermore we must remember that the semitic languages are full of hyperbole and exaggeration. Particularly when we see words like "hate" and "utterly destroy" in the bible, we should be aware that this may be semitic exaggeration, and be willing to do language research on that subject.
If God didn't love us just so, even as sinners, why would he have sent his son? I express the statement again- I think the notion of appeasement as pagan. Israel was a covenant relation- designed I think to fail. The law was meant to show that nobody could keep it- to make sin visible and manifest. God's ways are higher than ours. So what they say about Israel- her failure to keep her sacrifices, must be seen in this light.
I think we have this appeasement virus in our hearts when we think of earning God's love. Or else we feel we are already loved by him, but then when we receive it, we want to make him love us even more, by doing more works. Either way, I imagine we may be limited in our true fruits of the spirit by our fear of him or misunderstanding- doing works in order to earn his favor and grace. I understand, that is how it works on the human plane. The only exception may be with children and their parents. But that's just it- we must see God as the ultimate Good Parent.
Now some of you may talk about hell now- but I would just say that may not be part of the bible. I mean the concept we have now about hell may actually not be scriptural. I want every post I write to stand alone and so I always have to keep referring to it without going into any depth. I don't want everything I write to be about the universal salvation theology which seems to have great scriptural support. I want to write also about other topics.
I want to talk about the story of the prodigal son. I think this deserves a look. But first I want to ask you about your own life? Do you ever do things that could be said to be done in order to win favor from God? Until very recently, I think I didn't do that much of that. The reason was that I didn't do that much of that when I was thinking about that subject. But when I let my mind think of other things, on a day to day functionality level, I had all of these unanalyzed behaviors and attitudes that were just that. And it is really not so much about the behavior but about the attitude.
Now God does chastise and 'judge' us Does that mean he doesn't love us? By no means. In fact where does it say- he disciplines us because he loves us! Parents speak as such. If they didn't love their kid, they'd let him do what he does without discipline. And sometimes that doesn't even work for real rebels. So the parent let's him go off and be prodigal.
I want to talk about that parable but in terms of the 'good' son. Was he being a 'good little boy' in order to win favor with his father? Then when the 'bad' son came back and was welcomed back, the 'good' son, who has spent years appeasing his father, became full of resentment and bitterness. Please, you don't want this to happen to you, do you?
People in the hell camp often sound like the 'good' son in some ways. They speak in the same language. For example, we all agree that if universalism is false, it shouldn't be taught or spread. But we are not sure, or we disagree which is fair. Many church leaders have held this view, and let us be brothers here. So then they say that it is dangerous. Dangerous huh? They say if people don't have the fear of hell, they will do this or that behavior, or they won't evangelize.
Do you see it? It is not so stark to be seen, but it is there.
They are saying that it doesn't matter if their conversion or their good behavior comes from fear and not love, as long as it comes. All will get in in the end. And another note- they make the doctrine about heaven one about 'getting in'. It has more to do with clubbing and such and such than it does about bringing the Kingdom of Heaven here down to earth, doing God's will here on earth. Granted, the bible does have that parable about people who were invited to the wedding feast, and they rejected the invitation, and so others were summoned. Or the virgins. True, the bible speaks of an exclusivity, an exclusive banquet. But people turn that around and make the gospel one story about 'getting in'. That means that everyone who comes to christianity with that attitude or understanding of the Gospel, it makes their motives essentially selfish, if they were to go about it that way. We know that people can't bear fruit without the spirit, and we know that people like Gandhi bore fruit, right? We know that Jesus talks about people going out to evangelize and making others even more the candidate for Gehenna. When salvation becomes a selfish ticket to heaven to escape a sinking ship, rather than help others around us, I think religion and attitude gets corrupted.
The "good" son and the one that became prodigal. Lets look a little more. What did the prodigal one feel when he came back, and received grace? how much must he have felt of the father's unconditional love and grace. I do have sympathy and understanding for the good son. In his confusion and fear he made himself in to a prisoner. And I can see him being full of envy- not necessarily for the days of prostitutes that the prodigal son had, but for the experience of the feeling of grace- and freedom.
Now how can the 'faithful' son come to feel that grace? he could talk to his father, watch him in his dealings, study his ways, test his grace and faith. This might be why the pattern of the bible is for nations and people to be made hard hearted, suffer judgement, and then come to their knees (every knee shall bow). Maybe it is necessary. Maybe it is necessary in all aspects of our lives. Maybe it is part of the process of sanctification and perfection, and we are all good in some areas of life and weak in others.
The Gospel of Appeasement. It produces religious hypocrites! Want to find the people with the most faith and understanding of Grace? I tell you where- go to an AA meeeting. I'm sure you'll find it there. Look at the bassist for Korn, who became christian. People who have done everything, drugs, etc.
Again, what about people who on this side of the grave didn't find Christ or whatnot. We are getting into theological waters that go beyond the scope of this blog. But I have no doubt that nothing can separate us from the love of God, neither life nor death, height or depth, distance or space, time or anything.
Start trusting God. Stop doing things to please him. Stop fighting our urges. Give into them. I am not saying sin. But I am saying stop being "virtuous" half-heartedly. Stop being lukewarm.
God must work this in people in their time and he is still working it in me. God's love I believe will someday melt every heart. Mine still needs loads of melting, I am sure. But it has melted a little recently. A long way to go but there it goes.
So should we give into lust if that's what we want to do, rather than not do it just to appease God? In other words- should we be an outwardly sinning prodigal son or should we be a 'good' son with resentment? What did Jesus say- he said if you look at a woman with lust you have committed adultery in your heart. I have no advice on this subject to give. I would just say that nothing can separate God's love from you and you don't have to earn it. My advice would just be to examine yourself, your doctrine and scripture.
One more thing I want to say, an interesting thought hit me. Many might misunderstand me or else understand what I am saying and criticize me nontheless- because I am using a foreign word. I don't believe in Karma, because I believe in grace. Grace cancels out Karma. Another word for Karma could just be justice- payback. But then I remembered the verses in the bible that talked about forgiving the debtor. But he didn't forgive his debtor, so the man who forgave the first debtor became angry at him, and threw him into prison until he paid every last penny. And we know there is justice- judgement on the earth. So maybe karma is actually biblical- but superceded by Grace under certain conditions- a melted heart for example. Isn't that the end he seeks anyways? So when the end is reached- the process is finished. So what's the point anymore. Give him grace. His knees have already bowed, his tongue has already confessed and praised. But if he persists in hard heartedness, he will pay back every penny. Karma? Again what if they die without being first broken? That is the only thing that separates the universalist from the hell camp people. Again, just to be clear, I mean God brings judgement through occurrences in the world, in our actual life, by bringing things about. I don't know how exactly. Maybe he plants desires in people's hearts which brings about problems and so on. Maybe he just lets sin run it's course. But I am not sure Karma is a false doctrine from India. Paying every last penny sounds a lot like Karma to me. But then there of course is grace.
Of course if you believe in Eternal Punishment, Hell, etc rather than Aionios Kolasis, gehenna, etc. you are going to see things differently and think I am twisting scripture. No, I am not twisting scripture, I am just understanding various terms and concepts in a different way, but still I am trying to see patterns in scripture and not use simple proof texts but look at the complete picture and pattern.
I could talk so much more about this subject. Just go to sleep tonight asking 'how have I tried to appease God' this last day? This last month? This last year? This last lifetime? And then ask the question- would I really want to serve him based on love? This will reveal one's true character. I know that people are sitting in the pews just getting sermons drummed into their minds week after week, without knowing the grace. Which son are you? There must be a third son- a faithful son having done his works in love- in the likeness of whom? In the likeness of... the father! That's what we should strive for, with a right understanding. But in the mean time, we must trust God to work out everything in his time, in our lives and in the world. Every day, if we get closer to his rest, what more do we need?
