Armegeddon...When and What is It?

[whirlwind]

I'm going to make an observation and would appreciate some constructive thoughts from other children of God. This concerns Armageddon and is to try to understand exactly what it is and the timing of that battle:


Revelation 16:14-16 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

• Armageddon means "the hill or city of Megiddo" and Megiddo means, "place of crowds."

Hebrews 12:1-2 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, Looking unto Jesus the Author and Finisher of our faith, Who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

• Race is always translated "fight, conflict, etc." except save here. The word means THE PLACE OF ASSEMBLY, and then the games witnessed, and then any contest, a lawsuit, etc. - Companion Bible (KJV), E.W. Bullinger

Mark 13:9-11 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for My sake, for a testimony against them. And the gospel must first be published among all nations. But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

• Armageddon is the gathering place of the crowds. There (world-wide...not in one spot) we are delivered for a testimony. We are gathered/assembled with crowds for a witness/testimony.
  
  The battle of Armageddon is the "race set before us" when we will allow the Holy Spirit to speak through us. Is that happening now? I don't know...perhaps. Perhaps what we do on forums such as this is indeed allowing Him to speak through us. Is this our Armageddon, where we wage our individual battle?

Psalm 144:1 Blessed be the LORD my strength which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight:

• I believe that if we are looking for a last great battle to be waged in Jerusalem...then we are fooling ourselves. We are now in this battle of Armageddon. We are the crowds of witnesses gathered right now allowing Him to speak through us and His testimony is being witnessed to the world.

 

[Steve76]

As far as I know and being only six months into the faith, there is a place called Megeddo in Israel;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megiddo,_Israel

And as all the large armies of the world join in a war over Israel at this place, Christ is to return, causing the warring armies to destroy themselves.
Although, this is all coming from a believer still on milk!



http://getwiththeword.blogspot.com/

 

[whirlwind]

As far as I know and being only six months into the faith, there is a place called Megeddo in Israel;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megiddo,_Israel

And as all the large armies of the world join in a war over Israel at this place, Christ is to return, causing the warring armies to destroy themselves.
Although, this is all coming from a believer still on milk!



http://getwiththeword.blogspot.com/

There is a literal site but most, if not all, of Revelation is spiritual in nature. I see this battle as ongoing and ending at the second Advent but it is a battle for our souls...not our flesh. Spiritually, we believers, are His holy city Jerusalem and we are who the world, led by Satan, fights against.

I have more reading and thinking to do on this but it is ringing true to me.

As far as you being "a believer still on milk,"....that's the strongest milk I've ever seen. He must have you on an elevated course to graduate at the top of your class.

 

[Steve76]

There is a literal site but most, if not all, of Revelation is spiritual in nature. I see this battle as ongoing and ending at the second Advent but it is a battle for our souls...not our flesh. Spiritually, we believers, are His holy city Jerusalem and we are who the world, led by Satan, fights against.

I have more reading and thinking to do on this but it is ringing true to me.

As far as you being "a believer still on milk,"....that's the strongest milk I've ever seen. He must have you on an elevated course to graduate at the top of your class.

Hehe! It sure is full cream anyway! My conversion is one to shout about for sure!!!!!

I do believe it will be an actual war/battle at the site, and without going into too much detail here Daniel's prophecy seems to link in with current events building up to Armageddon so, yes, I totally agree with you as there is much more to it than just a physical war. It is a spiritual war, one that is unseen for now but one that is working through believers (and non) and the tribulation, I think, could well be the pivotal time where it all starts to become apparent..

I've enrolled and want my station!



http://getwiththeword.blogspot.com/

 

[veteran]

whirlwind, I get where you're coming from, but the Armageddon event links with literal Old Testament prophecy, like Ezekiel 38 & 39, and prophecy like this...

Zeph 3:8-9
8 Therefore wait ye upon Me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for My determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them Mine indignation, even all My fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of My jealousy.
9 For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve Him with one consent.
(KJV)

Remember Peter showed this world age will be destroyed by fire (2 Peter 3:10). He linked that event with the time of Christ's coming as a thief in the night on the day of The Lord. And God gave us to watch specific nations in Ezek.38 that would form up to go against Jerusalem. So there's going to be a real battle at the very end, and it's when Christ comes to defeat them. That's specifically what Ezek.39 is revealing, because if God gave us to win it, His enemies would not know His Hand in it. For this last battle, they will know Who The GOD is. That's one of The LORD's most powerful Messages in the Ezek.38-39 chapters, and then Ezek.40 forward are Milennium chapters.

Although the word "Armageddon" comes from the Hebrew, the Greek transliteration of it means to 'surround' and 'to pour out' (Strong's 2022 and 4023). It links with the idea of Zephaniah 3:8, and Luke 21:20.

Here's another revealing of how those armies that come up against Jerusalem at the very end will be destroyed by God's consuming fire...

Zech 14:12
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
(KJV)

Thus the battles of Armageddon and Hamongog are linked with the time of Christ's coming, which also includes the destruction of this world age by God's consuming fire. And that's how we all will be ushered into Christ's Milennium reign, a Heavenly age manifested upon this earth. That's the 'twinkling of an eye' resurrection event on the "last trump" Paul mentioned in 1 Cor.15, which he was pulling from Isaiah 25.

The delivering up of Christ's elect to councils and synagogues will happen prior to all that. It will be their Witness and Testimony for Christ right in the midst of Christ's enemies to the whole world, that will anger Satan, which is what will cause him to gather up the armies of Ezek.38 in final to go up against Israel to try and destroy it.
.

 

[whirlwind]

whirlwind, I get where you're coming from, but the Armageddon event links with literal Old Testament prophecy, like Ezekiel 38 & 39, and prophecy like this...

Zeph 3:8-9
8 Therefore wait ye upon Me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for My determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them Mine indignation, even all My fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of My jealousy.
9 For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve Him with one consent.
(KJV)

Remember Peter showed this world age will be destroyed by fire (2 Peter 3:10). He linked that event with the time of Christ's coming as a thief in the night on the day of The Lord. And God gave us to watch specific nations in Ezek.38 that would form up to go against Jerusalem. So there's going to be a real battle at the very end, and it's when Christ comes to defeat them. That's specifically what Ezek.39 is revealing, because if God gave us to win it, His enemies would not know His Hand in it. For this last battle, they will know Who The GOD is. That's one of The LORD's most powerful Messages in the Ezek.38-39 chapters, and then Ezek.40 forward are Milennium chapters.

Veteran, thank you so much for your input...

The battle of Ezekiel 38, the Gog/Magog battle, is a literal battle...but it isn't Armageddon. There, literal world forces will come against Israel. Not the nation of Israel but the "mountains of Israel." Remember, the tribes of Israel are split into two factions presently. All are Israel but only the tribes of Judah and Benjamin, the house of Judah, are Jews. The other ten tribes are the "house of Israel." The house of Israel are the lost tribes, the lost sheep Christ was sent to [Matthew 15:24]. He found us and we proudly carry His name....Christian.

Russia and their allies will come against the "mountains of Israel" and biblical mountains are symbolic of nations. Here it is Christian nations they come against...America and our allies. As you stated, God will fight that battle. However...that isn't Armageddon.

Although the word "Armageddon" comes from the Hebrew, the Greek transliteration of it means to 'surround' and 'to pour out' (Strong's 2022 and 4023). It links with the idea of Zephaniah 3:8, and Luke 21:20.

There is of course the literal Jerusalem but spiritually, we, believers are His holy city Jerusalem. Christians are surrounded by Satan's forces, his deception. that, I believe, is what Jesus is conveying in the Olivet prophecies. Consider the following with Jerusalem being us...His children, His holy city...

• Luke 21:19-20 In your patience possess ye your souls. And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation therof is nigh

.

• Psalms 35:4 Let them be confounded and put to shame that seek after my soul: Let them be turned back and brought to confusion that devise my hurt. (7) For without cause have they hid for me their net in a pit, which without cause they have digged for my soul. (17)LORD, how long wilt Thou look on? Rescue my soul from their destructions, My darling from the lions

.

Armageddon is a spiritual gathering...a struggle for our souls.

Here's another revealing of how those armies that come up against Jerusalem at the very end will be destroyed by God's consuming fire...


[quote:dyqvijnu]Zech 14:12
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
(KJV)

Thus the battles of Armageddon and Hamongog are linked with the time of Christ's coming, which also includes the destruction of this world age by God's consuming fire. And that's how we all will be ushered into Christ's Milennium reign, a Heavenly age manifested upon this earth. That's the 'twinkling of an eye' resurrection event on the "last trump" Paul mentioned in 1 Cor.15, which he was pulling from Isaiah 25.

The delivering up of Christ's elect to councils and synagogues will happen prior to all that. It will be their Witness and Testimony for Christ right in the midst of Christ's enemies to the whole world, that will anger Satan, which is what will cause him to gather up the armies of Ezek.38 in final to go up against Israel to try and destroy it.
.

[/quote:dyqvijnu]

I agree with much of what you say but still see Armageddon as a continuous spiritual battle that culminates on the last day.

Again, thank you for your comments...they are appreciated as well as any future replies.

 

[ThreshingSword]

Remember, the tribes of Israel are split into two factions presently. All are Israel but only the tribes of Judah and Benjamin, the house of Judah, are Jews. The other ten tribes are the "house of Israel." The house of Israel are the lost tribes, the lost sheep Christ was sent to [Matthew 15:24]. He found us and we proudly carry His name....Christian.

Wow, it's so great to read someone who gets this "house of Israel" and "Judah" concept! There is not one single church I have been to that teaches this correctly as you do. I wonder if this blindness among Christians today relating to this Israel/Judah concept correlates with Romans 11:25, which says "blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in"? I see the Gentiles as the Nephilim, but that is a topic for another thread.

Whirlwind, are you saying that you believe the battle of Armageddon is only spiritual and not literal? I can't say I agree with that, if that is in fact your view.

 

[whirlwind]

Remember, the tribes of Israel are split into two factions presently. All are Israel but only the tribes of Judah and Benjamin, the house of Judah, are Jews. The other ten tribes are the "house of Israel." The house of Israel are the lost tribes, the lost sheep Christ was sent to [Matthew 15:24]. He found us and we proudly carry His name....Christian.

Wow, it's so great to read someone who gets this "house of Israel" and "Judah" concept! There is not one single church I have been to that teaches this correctly as you do. I wonder if this blindness among Christians today relating to this Israel/Judah concept correlates with Romans 11:25, which says "blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in"? I see the Gentiles as the Nephilim, but that is a topic for another thread.

I believe it is part of the blindness. Most that don't understand that verse believe it pertains to the Jews that don't yet accept Christ but...it doesn't. All of Israel, Christians and Jews, have blindness to contend with but He is slowly giving us eyes and ears to understand.

Whirlwind, are you saying that you believe the battle of Armageddon is only spiritual and not literal? I can't say I agree with that, if that is in fact your view.

Yes, that's what I'm saying. I'm still trying to gather it all in but at present...that's what I'm beginning to see.

And...welcome to the forum.

 

[ThreshingSword]

Thank you, Whirlwind. Nice to meet you.

 

[(THE)]

Remember, the tribes of Israel are split into two factions presently. All are Israel but only the tribes of Judah and Benjamin, the house of Judah, are Jews. The other ten tribes are the "house of Israel." The house of Israel are the lost tribes, the lost sheep Christ was sent to [Matthew 15:24]. He found us and we proudly carry His name....Christian.

Wow, it's so great to read someone who gets this "house of Israel" and "Judah" concept! There is not one single church I have been to that teaches this correctly as you do. I wonder if this blindness among Christians today relating to this Israel/Judah concept correlates with Romans 11:25, which says "blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in"? I see the Gentiles as the Nephilim, but that is a topic for another thread.

Whirlwind, are you saying that you believe the battle of Armageddon is only spiritual and not literal? I can't say I agree with that, if that is in fact your view.

Wow, it's so great to read someone who gets this "house of Israel" and "Judah" concept! There is not one single church I have been to that teaches this correctly as you do.

There arent many who understand the split of Israel,,,,do to not reading the old test and listening to biblicaly ignorant preachers....

I see the Gentiles as the Nephilim, but that is a topic for another thread.

Gentiles is the Hebrew word "gowy", or "goy", or the plural goyim (Strong's No. 1471) and basically means foreigners, foreign nations, heathens, or people.


Giants is 5303 nphiyl nef-eel' or nphil {nef-eel'}; from 5307; properly, a feller, i.e. a bully or tyrant:--giant.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5307 naphal naw-fal' a primitive root; to fall, in a great variety of applications (intransitive or causative, literal or figurative):--be accepted, cast (down, self, (lots), out), cease, die, divide (by lot), (let) fail, (cause to, let, make, ready to) fall (away, down, -en, -ing), fell(-ing), fugitive, have (inheritance), inferior, be judged (by mistake

 

[ThreshingSword]

Gentiles is the Hebrew word "gowy", or "goy", or the plural goyim (Strong's No. 1471) and basically means foreigners, foreign nations, heathens, or people.


Giants is 5303 nphiyl nef-eel' or nphil {nef-eel'}; from 5307; properly, a feller, i.e. a bully or tyrant:--giant.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5307 naphal naw-fal' a primitive root; to fall, in a great variety of applications (intransitive or causative, literal or figurative):--be accepted, f, (lots), out), cease, die, divide (by lot), (let) fail, (cause to, let, make, ready to) fall (away, down, -en, -ing), fell(-ing), fugitive, have (inheritance), inferior, be judged (by mistake

Remember the Canaanite woman who came to Jesus and asked Him to heal her daughter from demon possession? The disciples wanted Jesus to tell her to go away. Jesus told her that He was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. This woman was a Gentile. The woman came and knelt before Jesus and begged for His help. Jesus replied, It isn't right to take the children's bread and toss it to the dogs. And then she came back with the witty remark, Yes, but even dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master's table. This story is an illustration of the prophecy found in Genesis 3:15.

Notice where she came from. The land of Canaan, the same land that Joshua and the Israelites were told by God to exterminate every man, woman, and child. But did they obey God fully? No. They left a large majority of them alive. And these are the Gentiles of today, the Nephilim. Part human, part fallen angel DNA in their mix.

Oops, I meant to add that I hear ya about listening to Biblically ignorant preachers. It amazes me how many pastors don't know this scriptural truth about the two houses, Northern and Southern. Like I said earlier, though, the blinders are coming off just like the Bible said. I too didn't know about it until a few years ago, and I have spent the past 20-some-odd years in church, first Catholic and then Assembly of God, Baptist, nondenominational...

 

[(THE)]

Gentiles is the Hebrew word "gowy", or "goy", or the plural goyim (Strong's No. 1471) and basically means foreigners, foreign nations, heathens, or people.


Giants is 5303 nphiyl nef-eel' or nphil {nef-eel'}; from 5307; properly, a feller, i.e. a bully or tyrant:--giant.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5307 naphal naw-fal' a primitive root; to fall, in a great variety of applications (intransitive or causative, literal or figurative):--be accepted, f, (lots), out), cease, die, divide (by lot), (let) fail, (cause to, let, make, ready to) fall (away, down, -en, -ing), fell(-ing), fugitive, have (inheritance), inferior, be judged (by mistake

Remember the Canaanite woman who came to Jesus and asked Him to heal her daughter from demon possession? The disciples wanted Jesus to tell her to go away. Jesus told her that He was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. This woman was a Gentile. The woman came and knelt before Jesus and begged for His help. Jesus replied, It isn't right to take the children's bread and toss it to the dogs. And then she came back with the witty remark, Yes, but even dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master's table. This story is an illustration of the prophecy found in Genesis 3:15.

Notice where she came from. The land of Canaan, the same land that Joshua and the Israelites were told by God to exterminate every man, woman, and child. But did they obey God fully? No. They left a large majority of them alive. And these are the Gentiles of today, the Nephilim. Part human, part fallen angel DNA in their mix.

Oops, I meant to add that I hear ya about listening to Biblically ignorant preachers. It amazes me how many pastors don't know this scriptural truth about the two houses, Northern and Southern. Like I said earlier, though, the blinders are coming off just like the Bible said. I too didn't know about it until a few years ago, and I have spent the past 20-some-odd years in church, first Catholic and then Assembly of God, Baptist, nondenominational...

I agree,,,,its very fustrating to here people say Jew Jew Jew,,,but no understanding that only the tribe of Benjamin and Judah (some levitical priests) are Jews.....THe other ten tribes were scattered and became the lost sheep (but not lost to God)

As far as the "Giants" go,,,,,a giant comes from a supernatural being (angel) mating with a human woman......The gentiles (goy) were created long before fallen angels attempted to destroy the Adamic bloodline by mating with the Adamic females....

I havent been in church as long as you,,but I also got my start in the Catholic church,,,nice people,,but not my cup of wine.....

 

[veteran]

I can only agree that Armageddon points to the battle Christ fights at His coming. When I say that's a literal battle, it doesn't mean with conventional weapons like today, or of the past. Our Lord Jesus isn't going to defeat the enemy using nukes, tanks, and machine guns.

I think the verse flow is important...

Rev 16:13-17
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
(KJV)

It's about the pouring out of God's cup of wrath upon Christ's enemies when He comes. That's also what the battle of Hamongog is also about. And there actually is an OT connection with Megiddo and the house of Israel, since that area of Megiddo originally was assigned to the children of Joseph for a posession (1 Chr.7). Per Scripture the two 'houses' of Israel won't be joined back together until Christ comes. For that reason, I believe Armageddon points to a Hamongog type event in the Holy Land when Christ returns.

Can't agree with the Nephilim idea either, since that points to the fallen ones of Genesis 6 that took wives of the daughters of men.

 

[whirlwind]

I can only agree that Armageddon points to the battle Christ fights at His coming. When I say that's a literal battle, it doesn't mean with conventional weapons like today, or of the past. Our Lord Jesus isn't going to defeat the enemy using nukes, tanks, and machine guns.

I think the verse flow is important...

Rev 16:13-17
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
(KJV)

Consider that the spirits of devils have gone forth for quite some time...gathering as they go.

• 2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

The mystery, I believe, is how they work....

• Isaiah 32:6 For the vile person will speak villany, and his heart will work iniquity, to practise hypocrisy, and to utter error against the LORD, to make empty the soul of the hungry, and he will cause the drink of the thirsty to fail.
  
  [list:1atguijk]Amos 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:

59:6 Their webs shall not become garments, neither shall they cover themselves with their works: their works are works of iniquity, and the act of violence is in their hands.[/list:u:1atguijk]

They appear so holy, so religious, so godly....but they are not! Their mystery is that deception and their holy works are their cover. They cause the famine for we don't hear the Words of the Lord but the words of man.

That iniquity has gone on since the garden, they are gathering souls as we speak. After verse [Rev.16:14] Jesus tells us that He comes as a thief. We won't know when He will arrive. If literal forces were gathering against a literal Jerusalem...we would know when. I believe it is a spiritual gathering, a spiritual battle we all fight. We all face our own Armageddon and choose sides. Then...the final cup is poured.

It's about the pouring out of God's cup of wrath upon Christ's enemies when He comes. That's also what the battle of Hamongog is also about. And there actually is an OT connection with Megiddo and the house of Israel, since that area of Megiddo originally was assigned to the children of Joseph for a posession (1 Chr.7). Per Scripture the two 'houses' of Israel won't be joined back together until Christ comes. For that reason, I believe Armageddon points to a Hamongog type event in the Holy Land when Christ returns.

Yes...those that choose to follow Satan or are misled into following him will experience the wrath. For they are His enemies.

Thank you for pointing out the connection of Megiddo and the house of Israel. That is very profound and I had overlooked it. The house of Israel are the ten lost tribes, many times named under the banner of the larger of the tribes, Ephraim, of which his brother Manasseh is included.

• 1 Chronicles 7:29 And by the borders of the children of Manasseh, Beth-shean and her towns, Taanach and her towns, Megiddo and her towns, Dor and her towns. In these dwelt the children of Joseph the son of Israel.

Megiddo is indeed the possession of the sons of Joseph. The house of Israel was scattered by our Father and never returned to Judea. Some teach, and I believe, they migrated throughout Europe...eventually settling in England and then America. The house of Israel are today's Christian nations with America being represented by Manasseh. We, as Christians, have inherited Megiddo for that is the battle we fight. We carry His truth forward against Satan's lies....Armageddon!

 

[veteran]

whirlwind,

Please look again at the timing for those verses. Note what events are associated with that specific working...

Rev 16:12-14
12 And thesixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
(KJV)

Those "spirits of devils" have a particular time of working per that. It's tied to the 6th vial. Remember in Rev.9 about the sounding of the 6th trumpet, and the four angels bound at the river Euphrates are loosed for a certain hour, day, month, year. That's why these come out of the mouth of the dragon, the beast, and false prophet. That's tribulation timing. We aren't there yet.

Recall also Rev.12:7-9 about the war in Heaven between Michael and Satan, and Satan is cast down to this earth with his angels. That also is set for a specific timing, and is about the 6th trumpet, 6th vial, 6th seal. That's when the locust army of Rev.9 are specifically loosed on earth to take control, i.e., tribulation timing.

The "mystery of iniquity" term Paul used in 2 Thess.2 is a New Testament rendering for the "workers of iniquity" of the Old Testament Books. It's about the emnity between Satan's servants and God's people which has been at work since Gen.3:15. And when Rev.9 speaks of a 'king' being over the locust army with 6th trumpet timing, it's about that time of the two beasts of Rev.13, the dragon and the false prophet.

Our Lord Jesus also gave a major timing help with the 3 woes that align with the last 3 trumpets (starting at last part of Rev.8 through Rev.11). The 3 woes He gave won't allow the events of the last three trumpets to get out of order. The devil and his angels are going to be manifested upon this earth for the coming tribulation. But it will be like you said, the majority will definitely think they'll be somebody else, anyone but the devil himself and his angels.

I understand about the lost ten tribes. I've done several in-depth Bible studies on the subject, including research into archeaological documentation. I've even been to the location in Spain called Zaragossa (fortress of Zarah) which was an area of the Milesians that migrated to ancient Ireland. That understanding is not meant for the majority yet, and definitely not for those still on the "milk" of God's Word.

 

[whirlwind]

whirlwind,

Please look again at the timing for those verses. Note what events are associated with that specific working...

Rev 16:12-14
12 And thesixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
(KJV)

Those "spirits of devils" have a particular time of working per that. It's tied to the 6th vial. Remember in Rev.9 about the sounding of the 6th trumpet, and the four angels bound at the river Euphrates are loosed for a certain hour, day, month, year. That's why these come out of the mouth of the dragon, the beast, and false prophet. That's tribulation timing. We aren't there yet.

Recall also Rev.12:7-9 about the war in Heaven between Michael and Satan, and Satan is cast down to this earth with his angels. That also is set for a specific timing, and is about the 6th trumpet, 6th vial, 6th seal. That's when the locust army of Rev.9 are specifically loosed on earth to take control, i.e., tribulation timing.

You're bringing up an excellent point Veteran, about the timing of the locust army, etc. I too saw it as the sixth trump...but it isn't.

• Revelation 9:1-5 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth; and to him was given they key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth; and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power

.

They are released at the fifth trumpet. The locust, I believe, are the fallen angels while the scorpions are Kenites, the tares, who have been with us from the beginning. That was the first woe and then...the sixth angel sounded. The Euphrates is dried. So, do the fifth and sixth trumps sound at the same time? They appear to.

I guess the question, pertaining to this thread and the point you have raised, is....is the locust army the same as the three frogs? We are shown when the locust army is released, fifth/sixth trump, but are we shown the timing of the three frogs/spirits? The three frogs/spirits "come out of the mouth of the dragon, beast and false prophet" so the "spirits of devils" that go forth gathering folks to the battle of that great day...are words, deception, false doctrine, twisted scripture. Those speaking lies are the beast, who has been here for a long time, the dragon, who has been here for a long time and the false prophet. All have been deceiving souls and that essentially is..."gathering them to the battle of that great day." Although that was written after the sixth angel poured his vial it doesn't mean the frogs/spirits weren't gathering long ago.

It is my understanding that the vials are all poured at once. If that is correct then there would be no time to gather folks against Jesus after the sixth vial is poured. Therefore, I believe it is an ongoing process.

The "mystery of iniquity" term Paul used in 2 Thess.2 is a New Testament rendering for the "workers of iniquity" of the Old Testament Books. It's about the emnity between Satan's servants and God's people which has been at work since Gen.3:15. And when Rev.9 speaks of a 'king' being over the locust army with 6th trumpet timing, it's about that time of the two beasts of Rev.13, the dragon and the false prophet.

Iniquity has been at work for quite some time. :verysad However, as far as the timing of the beasts. The first beast, which I see as a worldly system, was "set up" long ago and is fully operational now. I do agree that the second beast is the "king over the locust army."

Our Lord Jesus also gave a major timing help with the 3 woes that align with the last 3 trumpets (starting at last part of Rev.8 through Rev.11). The 3 woes He gave won't allow the events of the last three trumpets to get out of order. The devil and his angels are going to be manifested upon this earth for the coming tribulation. But it will be like you said, the majority will definitely think they'll be somebody else, anyone but the devil himself and his angels.

I understand about the lost ten tribes. I've done several in-depth Bible studies on the subject, including research into archeaological documentation. I've even been to the location in Spain called Zaragossa (fortress of Zarah) which was an area of the Milesians that migrated to ancient Ireland. That understanding is not meant for the majority yet, and definitely not for those still on the "milk" of God's Word.

That is fascinating. Are your studies accessible on-line? I'm afraid I must disagree with your saying the understanding about the tribes isn't for those on milk for I believe it brings so much more understanding to His Word to KNOW about them/us.

It is such a pleasure to discuss this topic with you. Thank you!

 

[veteran]

whirlwind,

I understand what you mean about the locust army on the 5th trumpet, and I used to think that meant its release upon the earth the way you said.

Good, you understand there's two different beasts of Rev.13, the first is a system over the earth, and the second is an entity, about a religious beast. Consider those two workings with the locust army events of Rev.9 also.

The 5th trumpet working does show a release out of the pit with "smoke" (deception) and gives detail of how they work. But on the 2nd woe and 6th trumpet, the four angels at Euphrates are loosed, allowing the locust army of Rev.9:16 to cross it. Euphrates represents a border between Israel and Babylon. I see the 5th trumpet working in prep for that 6th trumpet release, which represents their full release upon the earth, like the Rev.12:7-9 event. (I assume you've studied the Book of Joel along with that, and understand about the four stages of the locust. The parallels to the locust army working of Rev.9 is given there.)

Down at the spiritual level, I believe the 5th trumpet working means the "workers of iniquity" preparing the way with four stage controls over the whole earth, but the 6th trumpet brings the devil and his angels to earth de facto to sit in rule over it. The devil's angels coming with him certainly would represent those "spirits of devils" working miracles on the earth per Rev.16. What the "workers of iniquity" are doing today to take control is not that miracle working, but when the religous beast appears on the 6th trumpet, that's when the miracle working will begin, the high point time of deception over the majority of the world, the religious beast working of Rev.13:11 forward, the actual 'stinging' time of "five months". That's how I interpret that trumpet division about the locust army.

Thus I believe the deeper descriptions of how the locust army works on the 6th trumpet at their full release (with the event of Rev.12:7-9) is when the five months period is, linking to tribulation timing. Remember how a real scorpion stings its prey. Our Lord used that as a symbol for how they work deception upon those not sealed by God for that five months peirod. Would the height of that working be with the "workers of iniquity" working on the 5th trumpet, or on the 6th trumpet when Satan and his angels are released upon the earth? I believe it's the latter. The last part of Rev.12 also refers to the events of a flood like in Noah's day. The actual time Noah's ark was upon the flood waters was a period of 150 days, which equals five months per the old Hebrew reckoning.

I strongly agree that the Bible teaching on the ten lost tribes is a major Faith builder, for it shows God's Promises are true, and that we can actually see them present on earth, giving a deeper reality of evidence for God's Plan of Salvation. But the majority of Christians reject it, either because of the smear campaigns against it, or because of the organizations of men trying to keep them on the "milk" of God's Word. So I was talking about a time when that will be fully known and understand by all believers, which won't be until Christ's return and our gathering to Him out of all nations where they have been scattered, both 'sticks' being put back together under Christ Jesus per Ezek.37, and believing Gentiles with them.

 

[veteran]

I guess the question, pertaining to this thread and the point you have raised, is....is the locust army the same as the three frogs? We are shown when the locust army is released, fifth/sixth trump, but are we shown the timing of the three frogs/spirits? The three frogs/spirits "come out of the mouth of the dragon, beast and false prophet" so the "spirits of devils" that go forth gathering folks to the battle of that great day...are words, deception, false doctrine, twisted scripture. Those speaking lies are the beast, who has been here for a long time, the dragon, who has been here for a long time and the false prophet. All have been deceiving souls and that essentially is..."gathering them to the battle of that great day." Although that was written after the sixth angel poured his vial it doesn't mean the frogs/spirits weren't gathering long ago.

Look at the Rev.16:14 verse again, about their working "miracles". When are they to do that and what timing does that represent? And just which "kings of the earth" would that timing mean? The ten kings of Rev.13:1 and 17:12? Those are still yet coming as they represent the final controlling seats of the beast system over the whole earth. Per Rev.13:11 forward, the religous beast is to work great wonders and miracles in the sight of men, meaning on earth. That points to tribulation timing, which is not yet today. But we can see the religous beast as a structure forming up today (inter-faith movement). It will require the false messiah's presence to jel that together, which will be the strongest time of deception upon the world.

It is my understanding that the vials are all poured at once. If that is correct then there would be no time to gather folks against Jesus after the sixth vial is poured. Therefore, I believe it is an ongoing process.[/b]

Did you notice plagues being mentioned at the end of Rev.9 on the 6th trumpet timing? The vials are linked symbolically with the plagues upon Egypt in Moses' day. Some of them are of the same type. Using that as a Biblical "ensample", what does it reveal about the timing of the vials? Where were God's people during those plagues upon Egypt?

Note how the events of the 6th seal (Rev.6:12-13 only), the 6th trumpet, and 6th vial are related. Then note the same thing for the 7th trumpet, 7th vial, and 7th seal (Rev.6:14-17). (I know the 7th seal isn't mentioned until Rev.8:1, but the events of Rev.6:14-17 are events linked with the time of Christ's coming on the 7th trumpet, when the high ones on earth will want to hide from the presence of The Lamb).

I realize it's common to keep the flow of events in the order they are given in Revelation, including the seven vials. I'm well aware some teach those saints of Rev.15:1-4 have been raptured to Heaven prior to the pouring out of the seven vials. Seems those have a hard time remembering how God has preserved His elect through all sorts of tribulations, especially with the time of Moses and the plagues upon Egypt.

But look at Rev.15 closely. We're first given a view of Christ's elect in Heaven with harps, which had gotten the victory over the beast, his image, his name, and the number of his name, and they sang the "song of Moses" from Deut.31:30 through Deut.32. That group is also mentioned in Rev.14 about the 144,000 that are sealed by God. What timing is that? When are the rewards handed out to God's servants; when is death swallowed up in victory per what Paul taught in 1 Cor.15? On the "last trump", the 7th, which is when Christ's coming happens per Rev.11:15. So as long as the beast system, false prophet, etc., are still existing on earth when the vials are poured out, it means the 7th trumpet has not yet sounded, nor the gathering of Christ's elect that go through the tribulation by the beasts. It means Rev.15:1-4 is a future look forward, even after the seven vials.

Like the plagues that were poured out upon Egypt, God's people were under His covering of protection through all that. Per the New Covenant, Christ Jesus now is our Passover Lamb (1 Cor.5:7) for the time of those 7 vials being poured out upon the wicked. And the seventh vial is poured out into the air, which is symbolic of the end of this world, the event of 2 Peter 3:10. That's also linked with the 7th trumpet and 7th seal events.

It means the order of many Revelation events given John through vision does not always flow chronologically the way they were written down. Only the last three trumpet events can we be certain of their order, since they were given along with three woe periods. Christ cemented that order for us, and understanding those three woe periods first will help understand the order of the seals and vials.

 

[whirlwind]

whirlwind,

I understand what you mean about the locust army on the 5th trumpet, and I used to think that meant its release upon the earth the way you said.

Good, you understand there's two different beasts of Rev.13, the first is a system over the earth, and the second is an entity, about a religious beast. Consider those two workings with the locust army events of Rev.9 also.

The 5th trumpet working does show a release out of the pit with "smoke" (deception) and gives detail of how they work. But on the 2nd woe and 6th trumpet, the four angels at Euphrates are loosed, allowing the locust army of Rev.9:16 to cross it. Euphrates represents a border between Israel and Babylon. I see the 5th trumpet working in prep for that 6th trumpet release, which represents their full release upon the earth, like the Rev.12:7-9 event. (I assume you've studied the Book of Joel along with that, and understand about the four stages of the locust. The parallels to the locust army working of Rev.9 is given there.)

So you are saying at the fifth trumpet the locust army is released yet it isn't their time? That is a new thought. Let me write this as I'm trying to figure it out....

It does say (during the fifth trump)

• 9:7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men. (9) And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.

And then it says (during the sixth trump)

• 9:16-17 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them. And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.

What is the difference in the army of the horsemen, the horses, and those that ride the horses. And there appears to be a difference in the horses from the 5th and 6th trump.

Those of the 6th trump, sitting on the horses had breastplates of fire, jacinth, brimstone. They are the horsemen (not the army of) but those that ride the horses.

The horses of the 6th trump issued from their mouth....fire, smoke, brimstone.

So, the horses and their riders, both at the 6th trump, show a difference in what they do.

The horses from the 5th trump also had breastplates but they are of iron...not fire, jacinth and brimstone.

John "heard" the number of the army but "saw" the horses and those that sat on them. I wonder what that means? Could "the sound of their wings" be the "number of the army" John heard?" Do wings represent their army?

The locust of the 5th trump were like war horses with faces of men with gold-like crowns where
the heads of the horses of the 6th trump were as the heads of lions.

Veteran...these appear to be two different events we're talking about. I don't think the horses of the 6th trump are the locust army of the 5th trump.

Down at the spiritual level, I believe the 5th trumpet working means the "workers of iniquity" preparing the way with four stage controls over the whole earth, but the 6th trumpet brings the devil and his angels to earth de facto to sit in rule over it. The devil's angels coming with him certainly would represent those "spirits of devils" working miracles on the earth per Rev.16. What the "workers of iniquity" are doing today to take control is not that miracle working, but when the religous beast appears on the 6th trumpet, that's when the miracle working will begin, the high point time of deception over the majority of the world, the religious beast working of Rev.13:11 forward, the actual 'stinging' time of "five months". That's how I interpret that trumpet division about the locust army.

Now thats a thought. Perhaps the difference in the horses from the 5th to the 6th are the different stages of the locust. Maybe that is why the differ in appearance.

Thus I believe the deeper descriptions of how the locust army works on the 6th trumpet at their full release (with the event of Rev.12:7-9) is when the five months period is, linking to tribulation timing. Remember how a real scorpion stings its prey. Our Lord used that as a symbol for how they work deception upon those not sealed by God for that five months peirod. Would the height of that working be with the "workers of iniquity" working on the 5th trumpet, or on the 6th trumpet when Satan and his angels are released upon the earth? I believe it's the latter. The last part of Rev.12 also refers to the events of a flood like in Noah's day. The actual time Noah's ark was upon the flood waters was a period of 150 days, which equals five months per the old Hebrew reckoning.

Yes, I agree it is a five month period.

I strongly agree that the Bible teaching on the ten lost tribes is a major Faith builder, for it shows God's Promises are true, and that we can actually see them present on earth, giving a deeper reality of evidence for God's Plan of Salvation. But the majority of Christians reject it, either because of the smear campaigns against it, or because of the organizations of men trying to keep them on the "milk" of God's Word. So I was talking about a time when that will be fully known and understand by all believers, which won't be until Christ's return and our gathering to Him out of all nations where they have been scattered, both 'sticks' being put back together under Christ Jesus per Ezek.37, and believing Gentiles with them.

It is a smear campaign...a rather silly one in my book but...very effective.

You've given me a great deal to think about tonight. I need a clearer head and presently I'm babysitting with grandchildren :crazy so I don't foresee a clear head until I'm at work tomorrow.

 

[veteran]

So you are saying at the fifth trumpet the locust army is released yet it isn't their time? That is a new thought. Let me write this as I'm trying to figure it out....

It does say (during the fifth trump)

• 9:7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men. (9) And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.

And then it says (during the sixth trump)

• 9:16-17 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them. And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.

What is the difference in the army of the horsemen, the horses, and those that ride the horses. And there appears to be a difference in the horses from the 5th and 6th trump.

Those of the 6th trump, sitting on the horses had breastplates of fire, jacinth, brimstone. They are the horsemen (not the army of) but those that ride the horses.

The horses of the 6th trump issued from their mouth....fire, smoke, brimstone.

So, the horses and their riders, both at the 6th trump, show a difference in what they do.

The horses from the 5th trump also had breastplates but they are of iron...not fire, jacinth and brimstone.

John "heard" the number of the army but "saw" the horses and those that sat on them. I wonder what that means? Could "the sound of their wings" be the "number of the army" John heard?" Do wings represent their army?

The locust of the 5th trump were like war horses with faces of men with gold-like crowns where
the heads of the horses of the 6th trump were as the heads of lions.

Veteran...these appear to be two different events we're talking about. I don't think the horses of the 6th trump are the locust army of the 5th trump.

You're right, they're not both exactly the same. So how does that show a difference with the beast working before Satan and his angels are cast to the earth, vs. after they are cast down to the earth? Some believe the ones arrayed for battle on the 6th trumpet represent Satan's angels when they come to earth with him (per Rev.12:7-9). How does that reveal a difference between the working of the first beast and the second beast of Rev.13? Note on the 6th trumpet their power is in their mouth, and in their tails, which were tails like SERPENTS.

Now thats a thought. Perhaps the difference in the horses from the 5th to the 6th are the different stages of the locust. Maybe that is why the differ in appearance.

Yes, just like you mentioned a difference between the first beast of Rev.13:1 as a world system over the earth, and the second beast as a religious beast working, one that requires Satan to come heal the first beast. The whole is about the locust analogy God gave in the Book of Joel. The purpose of both the 5th and 6th trumpets is to work deception upon the earth, the difference being the 6th trumpet and 2nd woe represents when Satan and his angels are loosed upon the earth. Do you remember the time when Michael will stand up in Daniel 12, and Paul's teaching about what withholdeth untll his time? That's about the day, hour, month, year the four angels at Euphrates are prepared for. It's an expression for a 'specific' time of that symbolic border of Euphrates being opened up.

Yes, I agree it is a five month period.

Me too. Especially since I've realized the 150 days timeframe which Noah's ark was upon the waters of the flood; and the flood of Rev.12:15-16 representing the "mighty waters of overflowing" of Isaiah 28:2. All a symbolic reference for Satan's flood of lies and the power in the locust army's mouths on the 6th trumpet 2nd woe period. That 2nd woe period continues into Rev.11, when God's "two witnesses" are sent to Jerusalem, where they will be killed by the beast that ascends up out of the bottomless pit. Rev.10 is a parenthetical chapter, but it still enforces the idea that all these events aren't over until the seventh trumpet.


It is a smear campaign...a rather silly one in my book but...very effective.

You've given me a great deal to think about tonight. I need a clearer head and presently I'm babysitting with grandchildren :crazy so I don't foresee a clear head until I'm at work tomorrow. [/quote]

I pray this has been a help to you, but I think you've already got it; just maybe you haven't realized those on the 6th trumpet represent the locust army too, but their working along side Satan and his angels when he's cast to the earth per Rev.12:7-9 to start the religous beast, and actual wonders and miracle working on the earth.