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Atonement?

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Georges

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Can someone please explain how Jesus is the Atonement in the context of the Jewish Feast Days.....?

Feast Days in Order:

1. Passover: Easy one.....Jesus was crucified on this feast day.
2. Hag HaMotzah: Unleavened Bread. Easy one....Jesus was in the tomb on this feast day.
3. Bikkurim: Easy one.....First Fruits.....Jesus resurrected on this feast day.
4. Shavout: Easy one....Pentecost.....Descent of the Holy Spirit on this day.

5. Rosh Hashanah: Trumpets....future rapture of the bride
6. Yom Kippur: Atonement.....future second coming of the Messiah
7. Sukkot: Tabernacles....future Messianic Kingdom.


Here is the question I need answered from a Jewish perspective....or a Christian answering from a "Jewish Roots" perspective....

I can see how Christ was the Passover Lamb in association with the Feast Day....Just like the Passover lamb in the Exodus caused God's angel of death to Pass over the believing Israelites, I think the shedding of Christ's blood caused a stay in the wrath of God over Israel.

Having said that? In the future when the real Yom Kippur occurs...or the actual event that these practice Yom Kippur's are preparing the people for, how will an atonement be accomplished at that time.....

using the imagery of the two goats as the sacrifice during the Yom Kippur service...? At the 2nd coming of the Messiah at Yom Kippur, are the forces of the Antichrist represented by the Azazel goat of the Yom Kippur feast day? Is that the atonement?
 
Types And Antitypes Of The Feasts

Hi George:

This is a nice thread, but kind of a deep topic for the average member; or so it seems. You wrote:

George >> Can someone please explain how Jesus is the Atonement in the context of the Jewish Feast Days
.....?

No sir. And you cannot either. This topic has a twist that is not incorporated into your presentation. The final use of the term ‘atonement’ (kaphar #3722 = to cover) in my Bible is in Daniel 9:24. Perhaps you are confusing that with the Greek concept of ‘reconciliation’ (katallage #2643 = exchange) which is something else entirely. The Old Testament sacrifices at the Temple allowed sins to be ‘covered’ (atonement), but none of that was dealt with until Calvary. By contrast, our sins today are not merely ‘covered,’ but they are ‘forgiven’ (aphesis #859 = pardon, acquittal), because that sin was placed upon Christ (2 Corinthians 5:21). Does that mean Israel of the flesh had sins ‘forgiven’ through the animal sacrifices they preformed from 30 AD to 70AD? No. Our access to the forgiveness through Christ’s shed blood (Ephesians 1:7) is through our obedience to the ‘message of truth’ (Ephesians 1:13-14) as the “power of God†for salvation to everyone “who believes.†Romans 1:16-17. There is no connection between the ‘covering’ aspects of atonement of the OT sacrifices AND the redemption we have “IN†Christ Jesus (Romans 3:24) through the Gospel.

George >> Feast Days in Order: 1. Passover: Easy one.....Jesus was crucified on this feast day.

The Lord’s Passover Supper is eaten on Nisan 14 at twilight (Leviticus 23:5) and Christ ate this meal with the Twelve in Luke 22. Old Testament Israel had to actually “apply†the blood of the Passover lamb to the doorposts themselves, which is a 'work.' The key is that there is a ‘water’ fulfillment that is seen and connected to the Temple AND a 'blood' fulfillment according to the ‘revelation of the Mystery’ (Romans 16:25). The first set of ‘fulfillments’ is ‘always’ seen, but the second set of 'revelations' is ‘never’ visible, but ‘spiritual.’ The types do not fit precisely, but we can agree on this point.

George >> 2. Hag HaMotzah: Unleavened Bread. Easy one....Jesus was in the tomb on this feast day.

The ‘Feast of Unleavened Bread’ begins on the 15th Day of the Month and runs for seven days (Exodus 34:18, Leviticus 23:6). Christ was not in the tomb that long. This symbolizes the time Israel fled from Egypt in hast. Leaven is the Scriptural element symbolizing impurity and symbolizes the need to remain pure through times of trial and testing.

George >> 3. Bikkurim: Easy one.....First Fruits.....Jesus resurrected on this feast day.

We agree. That is done on the ‘day after the Sabbath the priest shall wave it’ (Leviticus 23:11). That coincides exactly with God raising Christ on the first day of the week.

George >> 4. Shavout: Easy one....Pentecost.....Descent of the Holy Spirit on this day.

Hindsight is 20/20, but how many standing in the OT or even the Four Gospels knew that the Holy Spirit would fall on that day? One is hard pressed to connect all of the elements of Leviticus 23:15-22 to the Holy Spirit falling on the Day of Pentecost. There is more here than meets the natural eye with many blood, burnt and grain offerings in the mix. The common denominator in all of the offerings to the Lord, and not cutting the corners of the fields, is that all are ‘gifts,’ which brings us to Acts 2:38 and the ‘gift’ of the Holy Spirit. These offerings (Ezekiel 45:17, Ezekiel 46:4, Ezekiel 46:12) are all present in Ezekiel’s restored Temple (Ezekiel 40 +), which tells you that many aspects of this feast are yet to be fulfilled.

George >> 5. Rosh Hashanah: Trumpets....future rapture of the bride

I wish your work contained Scriptural support, so we could connect your statements to something in Scripture. If you mean at Christ’s return in Matthew 24:30-31 and that ‘gathering,’ then perhaps we can agree. If you are trying to connect this to anything from the Pauline Epistles then we disagree. Paul never uses the term “bride†in any of those Epistles where he describes the ‘body’ (Ephesians 5:30) as “His body†Church (Colossians 1:24). Our mystery (1 Corinthians 15:51) Rapture is not seen by any of the OT Prophets or the Law.

George >> 6. Yom Kippur: Atonement.....future second coming of the Messiah

We disagree. Christ fulfilled this ‘for us’ (body) when He entered “through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation.†Hebrews 9:11. The key ‘for us’ is that we are “IN†Christ and actively participating in His death, burial and resurrection through our obedience to Paul’s Gospel. However, you are correct in that Israel of the flesh will anticipate Christ’s return to fulfill this feast ‘for them,’

“. . . so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.†Hebrews 9:28.

The difference is that those living at the ‘end of the age’ (Matthew 24:3 +) will be preaching the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ (Matthew 24:14), as ‘we’ will have been with Christ already for 1000 Years by that time. Therefore, the ‘mystery’ (blood part) aspects of the feast are fulfilled for those “IN†Christ Jesus even now, but those coming through the gospel of water must ‘endure to the end’ (Matthew 24:14) for their ‘salvation.’

George >> 7. Sukkot: Tabernacles....future Messianic Kingdom.

We agree. The types teach that the coming 1000 Years (2 Peter 3:8) “Day of the Lord†(2 Peter 3:10) is a temporary kingdom that most certainly has an end. That kingdom is the one restored by Elijah coming to restore all things (Matthew 17:10-11). This temporary kingdom is the one the antichrist comes to take over at the end of the age (Matthew 24:15), just prior to Christ’s coming about 3.5 years later (Matthew 24:30-31). After the final battle and all of Satan’s cronies (all for now anyway; see Revelation 21:8) are in the lake of fire (Revelation 19:20, Revelation 20:10-15), then Christ sets up His kingdom that endures “forevermore†(Isaiah 9:7) in the New Earth of Revelation 21:1. In that day all of the feasts will be fulfilled and God will lead us into things brand new.

George >> Here is the question I need answered from a Jewish perspective....or a Christian answering from a "Jewish Roots" perspective.... I can see how Christ was the Passover Lamb in association with the Feast Day....Just like the Passover lamb in the Exodus caused God's angel of death to Pass over the believing Israelites, I think the shedding of Christ's blood caused a stay in the wrath of God over Israel.

Your choice of terms to build the phrase “stay in the wrath of God over Israel†is not registering in my mental data base of Scriptural phrases. Without Scriptural references I am afraid to try and offer a reply.

George >> Having said that? In the future when the real Yom Kippur occurs...or the actual event that these practice Yom Kippur's are preparing the people for, how will an atonement be accomplished at that time..... using the imagery of the two goats as the sacrifice during the Yom Kippur service...? At the 2nd coming of the Messiah at Yom Kippur, are the forces of the Antichrist represented by the Azazel goat of the Yom Kippur feast day? Is that the atonement?

What many fail to realize is that Ezekiel sees David on the throne during this temporary 1000 Year kingdom period (Ezekiel 34:21-25). He uses a form of the term “desolate†a dozen times between that installation and the resurrection of Ezekiel 37:11-12, because the one who makes desolate (Matthew 24:15) comes to make him into a sacrifice. Christ is returning o separate the sheep and the goats (Matthew 25:31-33) and send the righteous into a righteous inheritance and the condemned into condemnation. Ezekiel then sees David installed for a second time (Ezekiel 37:24-28), but this time “forever†(Ezekiel 37:25). The duplicity of the sacrifices is pointing to the types existing between the earthly (David = Adam) and Heavenly (Christ) fulfillment of feasts. When you begin solving all the riddles between the true identities of the messenger and the Lord (Malachi 3:1) coming to His Temple, then ‘the truth’ is something truly amazing to behold.

Thank you for starting this thread and for the opportunity to write a little bit on the deeper things of the Holy Text,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral
 
Terral....Please don't take this personally but based on past experience on how our discussions go, I will not be responding to your posts...I actually was looking forward to discussion with other Hebrew Roots people, or those who know the feasts days in detail.... :-)
 
To show that on one level Christ's intention in going to the cross was to save those in the Church, some people quote verses that state Christ died for the Church (John 10:11, 15, 15:13, Eph. 5:25). But this does not exclude Christ from having other intentions on other levels. Scripture teaches that God desires all men to be saved (1 Tim. 2:4-6) and that Christ died for all men (2 Cor. 5:15, 2 Pet. 3:9, 1 John 2:2).

There are two levels of intention on which God is working. On one God intended Christ's death to be only for the elect (otherwise we would have to say that God intended all men to be saved, including Judas), but on another he intends it to be sufficient for everyone. These two come together when Paul says, "The living God . . . is the Savior of all men, but especially of those who believe" (1 Tim. 4:10). God is the Savior of all men in the sense he made salvation possible for all, but he is the Savior of those who believe in a special and superior manner since only they have salvation made efficacious for them.

As Ludwig Ott said, "Although [Christ] is 'the Redeemer of the World' (John 4:42), the 'Savior of all men' (1 Tim. 4:10), he is still 'especially' the 'Savior of the faithful' (1 Tim. 4:10), who compose the Church, which he 'has purchased with his own blood' (Acts 20:28)".
 
but on another he intends it to be sufficient for everyone. These two come together when Paul says, "The living God . . . is the Savior of all men, but especially of those who believe" (1 Tim. 4:10). God is the Savior of all men in the sense he made salvation possible for all, but he is the Savior of those who believe in a special and superior manner since only they have salvation made efficacious for them.
Very good. :-) Sufficient for all, but effective for those who believe.

2 Cor 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

God gives grace to those who have faith.
 
vic C. said:
but on another he intends it to be sufficient for everyone. These two come together when Paul says, "The living God . . . is the Savior of all men, but especially of those who believe" (1 Tim. 4:10). God is the Savior of all men in the sense he made salvation possible for all, but he is the Savior of those who believe in a special and superior manner since only they have salvation made efficacious for them.
Very good. :-) Sufficient for all, but effective for those who believe.

2 Cor 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

God gives grace to those who have faith.

He also gives the faith :-)
 
mutzrein said:
...He also gives the faith :-)
Agreed. He gives all the ability to have faith, but it's where we place our faith that matters. ;-)

Some place faith in man, some in science, etc. Some in God. :)

Josh 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
 
vic C. said:
mutzrein said:
...He also gives the faith :-)
Agreed. He gives all the ability to have faith, but it's where we place our faith that matters. ;-)

Some place faith in man, some in science, etc. Some in God. :)

Josh 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Ummm – I don’t believe that this is the faith that scripture speaks of. Faith in man & science is not true faith - and faith in God is not of man’s volition.
 
mutzrein said:
vic C. said:
mutzrein said:
...He also gives the faith :-)
Agreed. He gives all the ability to have faith, but it's where we place our faith that matters. ;-)

Some place faith in man, some in science, etc. Some in God. :)

Josh 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Ummm – I don’t believe that this is the faith that scripture speaks of. Faith in man & science is not true faith - and faith in God is not of man’s volition.

Mutz,

I will have to offer here that Vic has hit on a point that is MOST definitely of import. Let me explain:

We have been told that IF we have the faith of a mustard seed we could move mountains. This in NO way offers ONLY 'faith in God'. This is in reference to FAITH PERIOD. it's WHERE we PLACE it that is able to distinguish those that FOLLOW God or 'something else'. Many have TONS of 'faith in themselves'. They BECOME their OWN Gods. And in this I can offer that; perhaps God DOES 'strengthen our faith' SO LONG as it is directed in HIS direction instead of ANOTHER.

MEC
 
Mutz,

I will have to offer here that Vic has hit on a point that is MOST definitely of import
Huh! :o


<vic faints> :smt100

Question for anyone: what kind of faith is being referred to in 1 Cor 12?

Also MEC, read 2 Cor 10:15
 
Ok,

I thought I was offering 'agreement' with what you offered. But let me explain to what I refer and then SEE if you have a valid disagreement:

Is NOT 'faith in myself' FAITH? Is not 'faith in Satan' FAITH. is NOT faith SIMPLY what one PLACES their hope and BELIEF IN?

Now, I am WELL aware of what or WHO those that are 'righteous' are COMMANDED to HAVE FAITH IN. But, are you going to DENY that there is NO FAITH outside of a 'faith in God'? For if so, then I am confused as to the PURPOSE of 'self help' seminars. Sales seminars that teach those to 'brainwash' themselves into SUCCESS.

Those that LOVE 'mamon' ARE placing their FAITH in wealth. Those that LOVE drugs are PLACING their faith in drugs. And those that Love ANYTHING are placing their faith in that which they LOVE.

So, We can CLEARLY see the accomplishments of the world that ARE wrought by FAITH. No matter HOW displaced, it is STILL faith.

That is what I was refering to. I guess I misunderstood what you were offering. Mutz offered that 'faith' is GIVEN by God. I cannot COMPLETELY disagree with this for it is WRITTEN in The Word. But I believe what is MEANT in the offering is that our FAITH is made STRONGER by God.

But it can work BOTH ways. Like a 'two edged sword', our faith can be increased by OTHER means as well. For those that WORSHIP Satan are made stronger through their faith in HIM.

We have faith in that which we BELIEVE in. Once one 'comes' to God, then HE becomes that to which our faith is directed. But there is MUCH faith out in the world that has NOTHING to do with God. And that is what I meant by the 'faith of a mustard seed'. That you have never 'thought about it' in this manner doesn't negate the FACT that this does NOT mean, ONLY faith in God. For we can CLEARLY SEE that with ENOUGH faith in ANYTHING, man is able to accomplish what he is previous ONLY ABLE TO DREAM OF.

MEC
 
I thought I was offering 'agreement' with what you offered. But let me explain to what I refer and then SEE if you have a valid disagreement:
<sigh> who said I was disagreeing?

You said
perhaps God DOES 'strengthen our faith' SO LONG as it is directed in HIS direction instead of ANOTHER.
I posted the suggestion to read 2 Cor 10:15 because I though it was relevant to your comment.

:smt017

Add to that, I was a bit surprised you agreed with me. 8-)
 
You guys are unbelievable.

There are two types of people in the world. Those who are God’s children . . . and those who are not.

It is impossible for a person who is not a child of God to have the faith that scripture speaks of, since this is credited as righteousness.

Outside of Christ, ‘faith’ in another person, system, object or whatever, is only a proven premise based on logic, and concluded on the law of averages. This is NOT the faith that scripture speaks of. Oh, you can call it faith if you want to – because all you are doing is focussing on the word ‘faith’ – but this kind of ‘faith’ is absolutely inconsequential. PERIOD. It is not the gift of God but a device of the flesh. And God doesn’t take THIS ‘faith’ and make it stronger – otherwise righteousness would come through the flesh.

If we acknowledge that God is righteousness, then we must accept that faith is also a gift of God, revealed only by God, and not a development of any human intuitive intelligence. And it is only available to those to whom God chooses to reveal it.

Whatever you do guys, don’t try to mix the gift of God with something of the intellect. It only leads to SELF-righteousness. Unfortunately there are many people who think they can apprehend something of the Spirit by means of the flesh. We see it all the time – and you guys seem to almost want to dabble in it.
 
Let's go back to the OP primary question about "Atonement" and how the Lev 23 list of annual Sabbaths in some way address the Gospel element of Atonement.

As someone the list of days has already been posted - my suggestion is that we zero in on the "Day of Atonement" to gain understanding of "Christ's work in Atonement".

In Lev 16 - the chapter on the "Day of Atonement" we see that the entire Atonement process consists of two key segment.s

1. The slaying of the "Sin Offering" -- the Lord's Goat.

2. The work of the High Priest in "making atonement" in the Sanctuary.

The entire ceremony includes both.

On the cross we see Christ "The Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins" 1John 2:2 NIV.

And in Heb 8 and 9 we see Christ "as our High Priest" - the work that he took up in Heaven "for us".

BOTH aspects of the Atonement process "as God defines it in Lev 16" are taken up by Christ "in real life". His sustitutionary atoning sacrifice on the cross COMBINED with His Work as our High Priest going on "Now in heaven" and "For us".

HE alone is our "one mediator".

He alone is our "High Priest" according to Heb 7 and 8.

Getting this concept is "key" to understanding God's model of Atonement in Lev 16.

in Christ,

Bob
 
Let's go back to the OP primary question about "Atonement" and how the Lev 23 list of annual Sabbaths in some way address the Gospel element of Atonement.

As someone the list of days has already been posted - my suggestion is that we zero in on the "Day of Atonement" to gain understanding of "Christ's work in Atonement".

In Lev 16 - the chapter on the "Day of Atonement" we see that the entire Atonement process consists of two key segment.s

1. The slaying of the "Sin Offering" -- the Lord's Goat.

2. The work of the High Priest in "making atonement" in the Sanctuary.

The entire ceremony includes both.

On the cross we see Christ "The Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins" 1John 2:2 NIV.

And in Heb 8 and 9 we see Christ "as our High Priest" - the work that he took up in Heaven "for us".

BOTH aspects of the Atonement process "as God defines it in Lev 16" are taken up by Christ "in real life". His sustitutionary atoning sacrifice on the cross COMBINED with His Work as our High Priest going on "Now in heaven" and "For us".

HE alone is our "one mediator".

He alone is our "High Priest" according to Heb 7 and 8.

Getting this concept is "key" to understanding God's model of Atonement in Lev 16.

in Christ,

Bob

Your assumption contridicts 1. Cor. 2:6-10, and in particular vs. 8. Paul
unequivocally states that the actual reason why Jesus was to be crucified could not have been predetermined from any source. For if the true reason were to have been deduced Jesus would not have been crucified. The true reason why Jesus was crucified was not revealed to anyone prior to his crucifixion, but afterward. Secondly. Jesus states in the parable of the Tenants that murdering him by crucifixion was not going to result in a stay of God's resolve to retaliate in kind, eye for eye tooth for tooth. If his murder was in substitute of yours it certainlly wasn't in substitute of theirs according to him.
 
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