lovely
Member
Hi Cyber...you are asking a very good question, fit for a thread of it's own, I think. I will try to answer, and maybe others can too since I started a thread...I didn't want to hijack javier, though it is related.
I think it is safe to assume that if they are truly in Christ they will presevere. This is why I find it difficult to call someone an unbeliever, when they say they are. I think it is good to encourage them to examine themselves, or challenge beliefs that have that do not align with the Word, but since God gives the increase we can't even really measure growth in others accurately...which is probably good. This question is the reason that sound teaching is so important, because how will they know if no on teaches them, or challenges them? How will the church even know, if it is blown about by every wind of doctrine? Maybe we verge on having a carnal church here. The Spirit may even be showing these babes to stop loving the world, but if the church is doing, and saying, the opposite, they are confused. Guess who authored that? I think this can especially happen if they are young in age, and not inclined, or ready, to study the Word. Good teaching is so important. If they do not hear it in their home, then the church is all they have left. If God has given them ears to hear, as mutz mentioned in another related thread, then they will...maybe in spite of the church. We must extend grace to our brothers, and trust in faith that God is doing a work, but only He knows how to separate the sheep and goats.
One thing I will say, and I may have mentioned it in my last post, but a babe's response to teaching is very telling. Even young trees bud in the love of God. If they desire to love God, and His law, and respond to teaching in a way that stirs them, or even causes struggle in them, this may indicate that they are believers. I think Jonah proved to us that you can't run from God, and He needs no outward indicators period since He sees the heart. To get fruit one needs to be pruned, though.
My son only recently has been sharing things with me that God has shown him. He told me he was saved at three. I admit, I doubted, but I decided to trust God and suffer not the little children...so, I have exhorted him to walk in the Spirit of God as he has grown, and have spoken to him as a brother. He is now 10, and I have only this past year seen evidence of him grasping things, and applying them. Small fruit? Has he been in Christ all along? I think so, and I think he was probably growing in ways that I didn't see.
I have a friend, an older women that I have known since I was very young. She came to Christ when I was about 13. She is in her mid-fifties now, and she recently called me and said that she is beginning to understand that God wants her to obey Him, and love Him with everything in her, for the sake of His kingdom and His glory. She admitted that she has realized that it is not all about her, and what she is going through, but that those things were meant to teach her. She has been saved over 20 years, and is still learning things that I would think are basic, but are they? I wonder what wonderful truths she knows that I haven't unconvered yet in the Word?
I think we are all babes to a degree, but that is my opinion. Certainly I am not a new believer, but there are still so many areas that I lack maturity, and are a huge question mark for me. I am still trying to study to show myself approved unto God. Maybe I am weak in faith, or maybe I am a slow learner, whatever the reason God will keep me, if I have a genuine saving grace through faith in Him. There are also areas that God is growing me in, and furthering His kingdom through, that I will not realize until I look back on them...if ever.
I think that believers mature to a point of being in Christ in the eyes of men, and maybe even in their own eyes, but even this is deceitful. I believe that overcomers will see God, but I also think they have always been in Christ from the point they believed in genuine faith, but only God can know who is who truly.
I think that this pattern of worldliness in the lives of believers is because of a lack of Truth in the church, and a lack of love in the brethren. I also think that that the world, or the culture, is also making it more difficult. I am reminded of an old Voice of the Martyrs when one of the ministers mentioned that it was easy to serve God, even when your life was at stake, in a place that was void of so much temptation...but he was amazed that places like the United States even had believers, since there was such a buffet of temptation here. I think there is some truth in that, and that this is sometimes where the heat of the battle is for the church.
It is so good for young people to hear Truth, and to know that God expects their obedience...and it's about Him, not them. I think they should be encouraged to think like Christians, and not like the world. And if they are worldly, perhaps they lack discipleship, and need to come up against the Rock of offense hard. If they are studying the Word, are under good teaching, and discipleship, and remain in love with the world, then they are being luke warm, and possibly do not know God. God looks on the heart and knows though, and we can not assume for sure one way or another...though we should challenge with the Word of Truth. We should not accept that worldly believers are the only kind we can produce, and we should examine ourselves as a church to see why we have such an epidemic, and why we excuse it...and even preach against obedience at times.
So, I believe that we are saved through grace, by faith, and unto good works, and it is all for His Kingdom...even babes who die just after belief like the thief on the cross, though their works may be few. The Lord bless you.
I think it is safe to assume that if they are truly in Christ they will presevere. This is why I find it difficult to call someone an unbeliever, when they say they are. I think it is good to encourage them to examine themselves, or challenge beliefs that have that do not align with the Word, but since God gives the increase we can't even really measure growth in others accurately...which is probably good. This question is the reason that sound teaching is so important, because how will they know if no on teaches them, or challenges them? How will the church even know, if it is blown about by every wind of doctrine? Maybe we verge on having a carnal church here. The Spirit may even be showing these babes to stop loving the world, but if the church is doing, and saying, the opposite, they are confused. Guess who authored that? I think this can especially happen if they are young in age, and not inclined, or ready, to study the Word. Good teaching is so important. If they do not hear it in their home, then the church is all they have left. If God has given them ears to hear, as mutz mentioned in another related thread, then they will...maybe in spite of the church. We must extend grace to our brothers, and trust in faith that God is doing a work, but only He knows how to separate the sheep and goats.
One thing I will say, and I may have mentioned it in my last post, but a babe's response to teaching is very telling. Even young trees bud in the love of God. If they desire to love God, and His law, and respond to teaching in a way that stirs them, or even causes struggle in them, this may indicate that they are believers. I think Jonah proved to us that you can't run from God, and He needs no outward indicators period since He sees the heart. To get fruit one needs to be pruned, though.
My son only recently has been sharing things with me that God has shown him. He told me he was saved at three. I admit, I doubted, but I decided to trust God and suffer not the little children...so, I have exhorted him to walk in the Spirit of God as he has grown, and have spoken to him as a brother. He is now 10, and I have only this past year seen evidence of him grasping things, and applying them. Small fruit? Has he been in Christ all along? I think so, and I think he was probably growing in ways that I didn't see.
I have a friend, an older women that I have known since I was very young. She came to Christ when I was about 13. She is in her mid-fifties now, and she recently called me and said that she is beginning to understand that God wants her to obey Him, and love Him with everything in her, for the sake of His kingdom and His glory. She admitted that she has realized that it is not all about her, and what she is going through, but that those things were meant to teach her. She has been saved over 20 years, and is still learning things that I would think are basic, but are they? I wonder what wonderful truths she knows that I haven't unconvered yet in the Word?
I think we are all babes to a degree, but that is my opinion. Certainly I am not a new believer, but there are still so many areas that I lack maturity, and are a huge question mark for me. I am still trying to study to show myself approved unto God. Maybe I am weak in faith, or maybe I am a slow learner, whatever the reason God will keep me, if I have a genuine saving grace through faith in Him. There are also areas that God is growing me in, and furthering His kingdom through, that I will not realize until I look back on them...if ever.
I think that believers mature to a point of being in Christ in the eyes of men, and maybe even in their own eyes, but even this is deceitful. I believe that overcomers will see God, but I also think they have always been in Christ from the point they believed in genuine faith, but only God can know who is who truly.
I think that this pattern of worldliness in the lives of believers is because of a lack of Truth in the church, and a lack of love in the brethren. I also think that that the world, or the culture, is also making it more difficult. I am reminded of an old Voice of the Martyrs when one of the ministers mentioned that it was easy to serve God, even when your life was at stake, in a place that was void of so much temptation...but he was amazed that places like the United States even had believers, since there was such a buffet of temptation here. I think there is some truth in that, and that this is sometimes where the heat of the battle is for the church.
It is so good for young people to hear Truth, and to know that God expects their obedience...and it's about Him, not them. I think they should be encouraged to think like Christians, and not like the world. And if they are worldly, perhaps they lack discipleship, and need to come up against the Rock of offense hard. If they are studying the Word, are under good teaching, and discipleship, and remain in love with the world, then they are being luke warm, and possibly do not know God. God looks on the heart and knows though, and we can not assume for sure one way or another...though we should challenge with the Word of Truth. We should not accept that worldly believers are the only kind we can produce, and we should examine ourselves as a church to see why we have such an epidemic, and why we excuse it...and even preach against obedience at times.
So, I believe that we are saved through grace, by faith, and unto good works, and it is all for His Kingdom...even babes who die just after belief like the thief on the cross, though their works may be few. The Lord bless you.
