Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • Are you taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need

    https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/

  • The Gospel of Jesus Christ

    Heard of "The Gospel"? Want to know more?

    There is salvation in no other, for there is not another name under heaven having been given among men, by which it behooves us to be saved."

  • Looking to grow in the word of God more?

    See our Bible Studies and Devotionals sections in Christian Growth

  • Focus on the Family

    Strengthening families through biblical principles.

    Focus on the Family addresses the use of biblical principles in parenting and marriage to strengthen the family.

  • Have questions about the Christian faith?

    Come ask us what's on your mind in Questions and Answers

  • How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?

    Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject

    https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042

[_ Old Earth _] Baloney Detector.

John

Member
Blind Appeal to Authority
This is often the first resort used to discredit those who do not cower to the opinion of the majority. Yet every major breakthrough in science has happened because some researcher looked beyond the prevailing opinion. An authority stating that something is true does not make it true. When searching for the truth, rely on the quality and quantity of evidance rather than on empty claims. In science, experimental evidance must reign supreme-not opinions or appeals to authority.


Selective Use of Evidence

Evidence can be found to support any point of view-no matter how absurd it is. Truth is usually found by examining what most of the evidance supports. For example,lots of animals have similar appearances and features. Is it any surprise that some fossils can be found that combine intermediate features between the features of two different animals? Just because a bicycle and a motorcycle both have two wheels does not mean random changes in a bike can turn it into a motorcycle. What does the bulk of the fossil evidance reveal? An honest viewing of the fossil record reveals distinctly different types of animals without intermediate transitions.

Ad Hominem Arguments
Ad hominem is Latin for "to the man". Those who publicly defend the scientific evidance for creation are often greeted with personal insults and attacks which have nothing to do with the evidance. The weaker the evidance for evolution, the more vehement the attacks. The essence of the attacks are, " Creationists believe in God. Therefore they are biased and anything they say on the subject of origins cannot be trusted." Everyone is biased. believers in evolution whose jobs and funding depend upon agreement with naturalistic interpretations are also highly biased. It is the quality and testability of the scientific evidance which must determine a theory's validity.


Testable Conclusions

One must learn to distinguish between interpretations and facts. Carl Sagan stated, " The Cosmos is all there is, or ever was, or ever will be." this is opinion...not science. How could statements such as this ever be tested? On the other hand, Creationists make the following type of claims:
1. There has been a worldwide flood in the past.
2. Random information cannot produce ordered complexity by natural processes.
3. One type of life has never changed into a distinctly different type with new functioning features not originally programmed into the creature's DNA code.
4. Mutations destroy rather then create useful functioning features.

These statements are scientifically testable and there is enormous evidance to support each.

Straw Man Argument
A straw man argument is when a position is distorted and the distortion is then attacked. This is repeatedly done by evolutionists. The creation/evolution debate is about determining the truth of the past. Yet,believers in evolution constantly set up a straw man attack by trying to make this into an issue of religion vs, science

Begging the Question
Begging the question is asking a question to which you already assumed an answer. Evolutionists start with the assumption that creation is a myth, there has never been a worldwide flood, and all animal life has evolved from a common source. By defining science to exclude supernatural intervention, evolutionists have begged the question by eliminating the truth before starting the debate. No honest debate is even possible under such circumstances.
 
This is a good list. I especially like how you probably think this actually applies more to evolutionists than creationists.
 
Snidey said:
This is a good list. I especially like how you probably think this actually applies more to evolutionists than creationists.

Sure creationists can be guilty of some of the above, but the king of the above is still evolutionists.
 
johnmuise said:
Begging the Question
Begging the question is asking a question to which you already assumed an answer. Evolutionists start with the assumption that creation is a myth, there has never been a worldwide flood, and all animal life has evolved from a common source. By defining science to exclude supernatural intervention, evolutionists have begged the question by eliminating the truth before starting the debate. No honest debate is even possible under such circumstances.

I especially find this part hilarious. Creationists assume that a world-wide flood happened because it's in the Bible. People believed that for a long time and assumed it was true, but modern science doesn't work that way, all of the evidence does not lead to that assumption.
 
Actually I want to give a serious response a shot here.

Blind appeal to authority (lol religion): Realizing that millions of scientists in every field have reached the same conclusions is nto an appeal to authority. You're right about good new discoveries moving beyond (usually building off of, which you tactfully avoid) old conclusions. However, that is not what creation does as much as it dismisses old conclusions, draws new, terrible conclusions based on improper or misunderstood evidence, and then makes a website.

Selective use of evidence: Evolution has evidence in every field of science, and transitional fossils are one evidence for it. Naturally, you'd like to believe that everything about fossils: their striking resemblance to other forms, proper arrangement in appropriate strata, dating methods, etc. is some sort of trick played on us by God (mysterious ways!). It's a bit like seeing a picture of a jogger, then another of the jogger ten feet ahead of where he was, and declaring it to be two separate joggers.

Ad hominem: Used by just about everyone, but in this case creationists are insulted for the same reasons flat earth proponents are. They are unscientific fools. (Get it? I did one)

Testable conclusions: You may be right about Sagan's comment. Interesting that you chose one such statement, instead of using evolution, which is highly testable in various fields. It's also interesting that you, in listing 4 testable conclusions (all of which are false of course, the first is laughable and the last three made me slap my head into my hand as they have been so frequently addressed), managed to skip THE core conclusion of creationism, God, which of course is not testable

Straw man: This list is seriously hilarious btw. Naturally, only evolutionists use straw men, while creationists spend their days in labs doing real science, then fight crime by night.

Begging the question: Yes, it's evolutionists that enter science with preconceived notions, not the religious, right? I would venture to say that of the very small number of creationists who actively discuss the issue, 100%* or so were religious before they became interested in the topic. Your description isn't really of begging the question as much as being biased.

*source: it rests on my shoulders...
 
johnmuise said:

Testable Conclusions


1. There has been a worldwide flood in the past.

These statements are scientifically testable and there is enormous evidance to support each

Would you please share the enormous evidence that I've seemed to missed, even after searching for hours at a time?
 
Bryce said:
johnmuise said:

Testable Conclusions


1. There has been a worldwide flood in the past.

These statements are scientifically testable and there is enormous evidance to support each

Would you please share the enormous evidence that I've seemed to missed, even after searching for hours at a time?
Did you try Google? :lol:

Hydro plate theory by Dr. walt brown. is a good place to start. http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid= ... 1&hl=en-CA
 
I did, :roll:

When I was looking it up I was actually debating a friend on another forum, for the record he is a biologist =/

He literally destroyed my first argument that I had used from a link provided by google, after a few hours of studying [and googling ] I was able to present a feasible argument that he actually agreed with, and we came to a agree-ance to disagree.
But, I found no overwhelming evidence that a world-wide flood occurred, that being said I also didn't find any evidence that dis-proved the possibility of a worldwide flood occuring.

It's controversial and while both sides have some evidence neither have overwhelming, from what I read anyways.
If you have somthing I may have missed, I'd be glad to hear it


edit:
Thanks for the link, I'll read up on it
 
Bryce said:
I did, :roll:

When I was looking it up I was actually debating a friend on another forum, for the record he is a biologist =/

He literally destroyed my first argument that I had used from a link provided by google, after a few hours of studying [and googling ] I was able to present a feasible argument that he actually agreed with, and we came to a agree-ance to disagree.
But, I found no overwhelming evidence that a world-wide flood occurred, that being said I also didn't find any evidence that dis-proved the possibility of a worldwide flood occuring.

It's controversial and while both sides have some evidence neither have overwhelming, from what I read anyways.
If you have somthing I may have missed, I'd be glad to hear it

I doubt i will unearth anything you have yet to read, but i will write a up a detailed response anyway shortly. probably a new thread.
 
johnmuise said:
Bryce said:
johnmuise said:

Testable Conclusions


1. There has been a worldwide flood in the past.

These statements are scientifically testable and there is enormous evidance to support each

Would you please share the enormous evidence that I've seemed to missed, even after searching for hours at a time?
Did you try Google? :lol:

Hydro plate theory by Dr. walt brown. is a good place to start. http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid= ... 1&hl=en-CA

Why are you referencing something you argued in this very forum and lost to, or at least didn't finish arguing your case? :-?

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=31428&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=hydro+plate+theory


JohnMuse said:
It is the quality and testability of the scientific evidance which must determine a theory's validity.

johnmuise said:
Jayls5 said:
What qualitative/quantitative empirical scientific data would convince you that you are wrong about something you consider an absolute by the bible?

It doesn't even have to be significant like the existence of God himself, but I'd really like to see some things that would convince you your interpretation of a certain passage was wrong.
For me its impossible, there is simply too much evidance for creation

I love the transition. No amount/quality of evidence can be produced to sway you from the bible (even hypothetical!), yet 'quality' and 'testability' determines a theory's validity. Apparently validity has nothing to do with your likelihood of adopting it.
:crazyeyes:
 
Why are you referencing something you argued in this very forum and lost to, or at least didn't finish arguing your case? :-?

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=31428&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=hydro+plate+theory

I presented the case, my claims still stand.




I love the transition. No amount/quality of evidence can be produced to sway you from the bible (even hypothetical!), yet 'quality' and 'testability' determines a theory's validity. Apparently validity has nothing to do with your likelihood of adopting it.
:crazyeyes:

VYou can't prove the bible wrong, and the bible has been doing a great job of proving itself right.
 
johnmuise said:
I love the transition. No amount/quality of evidence can be produced to sway you from the bible (even hypothetical!), yet 'quality' and 'testability' determines a theory's validity. Apparently validity has nothing to do with your likelihood of adopting it.
:crazyeyes:

VYou can't prove the bible wrong, and the bible has been doing a great job of proving itself right.

You have stated that nothing I can say will ever convince you otherwise... so I'm not going to argue anymore, but I will tell you this:

Your wrong. :-D
 
*shakes hand*

And here are my concluding words.

"II Peter 3:3-6 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of.

"Romans 1:18-22...Professing to be wise, they became fools..."

:popcorn:
 
johnmuise said:
*shakes hand*

And here are my concluding words.

"II Peter 3:3-6 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of.

"Romans 1:18-22...Professing to be wise, they became fools..."

:popcorn:

I never said I was wise. I just said you were wrong. I think there's a significant difference.
 
Jayls5 said:
johnmuise said:
*shakes hand*

And here are my concluding words.

"II Peter 3:3-6 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of.

"Romans 1:18-22...Professing to be wise, they became fools..."

:popcorn:

I never said I was wise. I just said you were wrong. I think there's a significant difference.
You can be a fool by calling me wrong.
 
johnmuise said:
Jayls5 said:
johnmuise said:
*shakes hand*

And here are my concluding words.

"II Peter 3:3-6 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of.

"Romans 1:18-22...Professing to be wise, they became fools..."

:popcorn:

I never said I was wise. I just said you were wrong. I think there's a significant difference.
You can be a fool by calling me wrong.

Why would that be, because you're right?
 
I would say yes, but i am willing to accept that i might be wrong, but i will hold out till the end to find out.
 
johnmuise said:
I would say yes, but i am willing to accept that i might be wrong, but i will hold out till the end to find out.

Well, technically you wouldn't "find out" if you were wrong... given the fact that you wouldn't exist nor have the ability to "find out" if there was no life-after-death. You would just cease to be. I wouldn't be worried if that was the case though. The billions of years before I was alive wasn't bad at all, and I imagine it wouldn't be bad after I pass either. ;-)
 
johnmuise said:
Why are you referencing something you argued in this very forum and lost to, or at least didn't finish arguing your case? :-?

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=31428&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=hydro+plate+theory

I presented the case, my claims still stand.
There is evidence against it presented in the respective thread, for which you have provided no explanation to reconcile it with Brown's hypothesis.

By any normal standard of debates your claim does not stand at all right now. Unless you mean, it stands refuted, that is ;)
 
jwu said:
johnmuise said:
Why are you referencing something you argued in this very forum and lost to, or at least didn't finish arguing your case? :-?

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=31428&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=hydro+plate+theory

I presented the case, my claims still stand.
There is evidence against it presented in the respective thread, for which you have provided no explanation to reconcile it with Brown's hypothesis.

By any normal standard of debates your claim does not stand at all right now. Unless you mean, it stands refuted, that is ;)

nothing in that thread really refuted anything, you said the water can't be that deep because of what we've seen today, But even at 5 miles (as opposed to 10) the water would be fine. also due to the pressure on the water it would burst like the bible says, just like the oil deposits that are under pressure up to 200,000 PSI in some spots, that fact we still have underground oil pressure suggests a young earth.
 
Back
Top