Baptism and Fellowship Help

[Veritas]

I was going to put this into the Christian Advice section, but I didn't because this could turn into a debate. That said, I would rather have advice instead of a debate.

Here's the story. I grew up in a Lutheran Church (Missouri Synod). I attend a Presbyterian Church. I do a Bible study with a Baptist group. I've done a little worship with the Baptist group and I've gone back to worship at the Lutheran Church a few times too.

I think I'm in this mess because I went through a period in my life where I really struggled, looking back I don't even know if I was a believer, thank God He's saved me but now I have some choices to make about my church family.

I wish I didn't have to choose between these, but I feel I do. I believe all have the Truth but I also believe that just going to one is the only right thing to do if I want to give my full time to a church "family".

Out of all these, I get the feeling the Baptist's are the most outwardly passionate about their faith and I can relate with them quite well. The only thing I don't want to do is be rebaptized. I've been baptized as a baby and I feel once is enough. I feel maybe I should stay with the Lutheran Church to honor my father and mother. Missouri Synod Lutherans seem to be a bit more austere in their reverance towards God (whereas I'm a pretty passionate person) but that particular Synod of Lutherans are just as solid in their beliefs as the Baptists. And I actually agree more with the way Lutherans view Baptism and The Lords Supper than the other two. I started going to the Presbyterian Church because I just found the worship services very edifying. However, after doing research on the Church I've found that the people on top are quite wishy-washy in their belief. But, I'm reluctant to leave the Presbyterian Church because I've made many friends there and they've been great support for me through trials and they, (unlike the people on the top of the church organization) are pretty solid in their beliefs.

So, I know that Fnerb is a Wisconsin Synod Lutheran (Which is very close to the Missouri Synod I grew up in) and Solo for one, I know is a Baptist, and aLoneVoice is a Anabaptist that, I think, believes in rebaptism. I'd love to hear from all three of you at least. Anyone here who is Presbyterian/Reformed?

 

[Guest]

I am not sure I following understand what you are asking... however I will provide you with my background and faith journey in regards to baptism, as well as a quick understanding of 'anabaptist'.

The term 'anabaptist' comes from the Greek word 'ana' which means "re" - so yes, it means "re-baptism". In understanding that baptism is meant as an outward of the commitment to follow Christ - only believers can be baptised. Throughout Scripture there is the logical progression and Teaching, Belief, Baptism. Therefore, the anabaptists were the first to promote a 'believer's baptism'. Since most were already baptised as an infant, they were re-baptised.

I, too, was baptised as an infant. While in college I came to have a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ through the conviction of the Holy Spirit and through the teaching of the Scriptures. However, at that time I did not get baptized again - as I do not at that time fully understand and appreciate the teaching of baptism. I also struggled with what it would mean to my family to be baptised again.

I was in my mid-twenties, when I came to appreciate what Baptism means, what it would mean in my life, and to be obedient to the example that Christ set before us when He was baptized.

My council to you would be to be re-baptized - not for the sake of getting baptized again, or because you must legalistically get baptized again. But rather, search your heart and the Scriptures - ask for the council of the Holy Spirit. I trust that God will place it upon your heart to get baptized again when you are ready and for the right reasons.

 

[jgredline]

Craig

While your post was not directed at me, perhaps I can offer some very simple advice....It is the ''What would Jesus do?''.....

Now of the three denominations you mentioned, I will tell you this..

now keep in mind that my opinion on this is based on what I have read and know about the three you mentioned....

Baptist...Very conservative, bible teaching believing group...Reformed...While I attend a non denominational, we are very similar to Baptist...

Lutheren....Very conservative as well, bible teaching believing and lean towards armeninism... I know many lutherans and are a great group of folks...

Presbytreian ......This once great denomination has / is falling into apostasy....Many great theologians came from this group and would be rolling in their graves....this group has embraced homosexuality, and have ordained lesbian pastors to begin with....Now I also know many presbyterians and are great people...I say because when I have asked them, why don't they leave that liberal church, they say, because they are the light in an otherwise dark place....

So where would Jesus go...based on what I know about Jesus, he would go where the prostitutes, tax collectors, demon possessed are....

Now I know that all baptist churches and all lutheran churches have their problems to and I am not suggesting they are with out sin...What I am saying is this...Where can you be the brightest light at?

On a second note...I have enjoyed your website and have visited a few times...Bless you brother.
javier

 

[Solo]

I was baptized as an infant in St John's United Church of Christ, confirmed an Evangelical Lutheran Church, and on my way straight to hell.

At twenty-eight years old I visited a Southern Baptist Church in a town 30 miles from where I lived as I had heard that they were having a revival service. I had always wanted to attend a revival service but never had. I was attending John Brown University studying Greek, Introduction to Old Testament Survey, and Introduction to New Testament Survey, just to see whether the Bible was true or not. I had a couple of years to use up of my GI bill so I attended one year at this University. During this time I attended the Southern Baptist revival service in my long hair, full beard, cross earring, long-sleeved flannel shirt, jeans, and a lower lip packed with Skoal snuff. I left the revival exactly how I entered with the one exception that I had the Holy Spirit living inside me when I left. I was baptized the very next Sunday, fully immersed to profess the salvation and baptism that occurred the night of the revival. My wife was saved and baptized the same time. We dedicated our baby boy to the Lord the Sunday that we were baptized, and he is now with the Lord.

My mother was saved at the age of 12 years old in vacation Bible school at a Baptist church. She did not get baptized until she was in her 50s, and I was able to attend. As I was growing up, she was the one reading the Bible in the home. It was her prayers and her Bible reading that I believe led me to salvation when I became older. She died at the age of 62.

When should one get baptized? When one recognizes that he/she has not been baptized since they were saved.

 

[AVBunyan]

Let's stir it up a bit - isn't that what forums are for???? :-D

If you want to pick one confusing doctrine today it is water baptism and yet it should be one of the simplest of doctrines. And yet more time has been spent on this subject than there ever should have been (just look at all the posts!!!). There are 2 schools of thought:

1. It is essential to salvation – don’t want to argue this – it is not…period! Seen all the verses, have had then quoted to me out of context for so long I just want to scream!

2. It is not essential to ones salvation but we are to do it because of misapplication of baptism verses.

Now this is what I believe baptism was for in the Bible. I will only discuss the word baptism as it relates to water for just because you see the word baptize it doesn’t mean it is associated with water all the time

The first time water baptism shows up is with John the Baptist. Now why did John baptize? Let’s let him tell us.

John 1:31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.

Look at “therefore†– why is the “therefore†there? The issue was manifesting Christ to Israel. Christ was being manifesting to Israel for the first time. John the Baptist said (paraphrasing), “Here is your Messiah! Do you believe this†Ok, then get baptized.“ Why get baptized? To show that you believe Christ was Israel’s long awaited for Messiah. And along with that they were to show their repentance in regards to their rejection of God the Father in the Old Testament. Manifestation and repentance - It is that simple. And yet this simple doctrine meant for God’s dealing with Israel has turned into a monster.

Do you know why they continued to baptize during Acts? Because the Jews rejected Christ in the gospels and were getting a second chance in Acts. The Gentiles were in on it because they were getting in on Israel’s blessings at that time. Once Israel finally rejected the message in Acts 28 then there was no need to call everyone’s attention to Jesus being the Messiah for that plan was done away with and Paul was called out by God to reveal the body of Christ.

The issue of showing Christ being the Messiah is a non issue today for we have advanced revelation on the matter due to the New Testament being finally written down – plus God is not dealing with Israel right now (I know, a broken record) – So………..baptism is a non issue today. There is only one baptism and that is the one baptism of Ephesians 4 and that has nothing to do with water!

Again, if you start with Paul you will get it – you can’t start with John the Baptist and carry a practice meant for Israel all the way through the church age! You see how simple the scriptures are? You know, Christianity is full of a lot of “junk†today that has nothing to do with Bible Christianity. We are not Rome – we don’t need all of those outward ceremonies.

Conclusion – If you want to baptize then fine – I don’t panic over people making baptism a picture of salvation, etc. You make it essential to salvation and we will go to war over that. But to use it as a picture then I’m not going to make an issue out of it – that is between your church and God – I believe in local self-governing churches.

God bless

 

[Veritas]

Thank you all for the responses so far. Javier, I like what you've said, I hadn't thought about it that way, it's just the type of 'backward' thinking Jesus has ;). I'll have to consider this.

aLoneVoice and Solo, thank you for sharing your faith journey, and praise God that He found you too! Solo, I don't know why but it was very good to hear that story about your Mom, thank you for relating that. Did she attend a Baptist church all those years before she was baptized?

And AV, that was a great explaination, I could never quite sort out why John was baptizing in the first place. I'll have to look into the rest of what you said a bit more. I have a sense that baptism can be a means of grace from God, but I'd agree with you that it is not nessecary for salvation (ie thief on the cross didn't need it). As for ceremonies, I can relate with you there. I never understood the liturgy in Lutheran church while I was young, but I feel that was my fault and not the church's. I think a person can pretty much make a ceremony out of anything. When I go back to the church now I understand it and can make it personal to me, and find a relationship with God in it.

Anyways, all your comments are appreciated.

God Bless

 

[Solo]

aLoneVoice and Solo, thank you for sharing your faith journey, and praise God that He found you too! Solo, I don't know why but it was very good to hear that story about your Mom, thank you for relating that. Did she attend a Baptist church all those years before she was baptized?

You are most welcome, Veritas. My mother raised her five children in the Lutheran Church that was across the Street from where we lived. She quit going to church after I was a sophomore in high school for a reason not known to me. One Sunday in Church she started crying, and it continued at home. She never went back. I do not know why. After I became born again in the Baptist Church revival, I began praying for my mother, father, brothers and sisters. My one brother lived at home with mom and dad, and I began witnessing to him. He began attending an independent Baptist Church in town. He became a believer in Jesus Christ one evening while I was witnessing to him over the telephone. My mother began going to the independent Baptist church with my brother where she decided to be baptized. I do not know whether she was ever baptized as an infant or not. I flew back home to attend her baptism.

Is a person saved without being water baptized? Yes. Why does one get baptized? To signify their belief in the Lord Jesus Christ by professing through baptism before believers the obedience of following Jesus, their Lord and Saviour.

 

[Guest]

aLoneVoice and Solo, thank you for sharing your faith journey, and praise God that He found you too! Solo, I don't know why but it was very good to hear that story about your Mom, thank you for relating that. Did she attend a Baptist church all those years before she was baptized?

I was told of a story once of a distant relative who wanted to share his faith in Jesus Christ to the rest of his family - proclaiming that he had 'found Jesus' - he was met with a crass comment, from one of his brothers: "I didn't know Jesus was missing"

Although the brother meant it to be crude, how true. It is not Jesus that is Lost, but us. It is not us who find Him, but rather He who finds us!

I am thankful to God for the testimony in my life, and the faith journey that I am on - of I know that I have not always wanted to be on it, and at times it feels rough, tough, and that I will not be able to make it. It is at those times when I rely on my own understanding and power, that I do in fact - not make it.

I believe that I can speak for me, and Solo - when I say that we praise God for your faith journey. I echo the comments from Solo - water baptism doesn't save, and you do not need it to 'complete' your salvation. However, when you are ready and you are listening to the prompting of the Holy Spirit - I pray that you will take a step of obedience, and become baptized - as a public testimony of the work God is doing in and through you.

Because of Him,
scott

 

[Vic C.]

...I could never quite sort out why John was baptizing in the first place....

Veritas, maybe this will help.

http://www.haydid.org/ronimmer.htm

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

.....So where would Jesus go...based on what I know about Jesus, he would go where the prostitutes, tax collectors, demon possessed are....

Bless you jg!
I would love to have another Christian out here on this turf! :


Veritas,
Have you considered the possibility that God has you associating with different groups, to use you to bring unity among different parts of the body?

Many years ago, I got involved with a pro-life organization. They are made up of every sort of Christian on the face of the planet. It was such a blessing to stand shoulder to shoulder with members of the body who were in unity, rather than fighting over what kind of pie to sell at the bake sale or what color the carpet should be.

It might be that God is using you to bring the doctrines of each group to the light of the others so that each of them can be corrected where they need corrected, or so that they may see that perhaps they are not all that different after all.

 

[Veritas]

Whew Gabby, I don't know, that is a BIG job. But I guess if it's God's doing it's not too big for Him. Still, isn't it better to have a single, good, solid "church family" and reach out to other "church families" rather than be one person split between different "church families"?

"Unity" has definately been on my heart lately. I seem to be explaining the "unity" concept quite a bit while witnessing to my brother and some of my friends. They use denominational differences to undermine Christ. They are into all kinds of relativistic stuff. I pray for them alot.

I also relate very well with what Javier wrote. I think I should go into the bars around this town with the message of Christ. There is a vacuum of young believers here. I think the message is misunderstood for the most part, and I think Jesus words "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick....For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners." Matthew 9:12-13 would jolt quite a few people. Many young people have difficult questions, but they are the same questions I struggled through in the past. I have answers for them! Of course, it would be nice to point them to a church.

Why not make a mission trip of sorts to the bars? I haven't brought this up to the churches I'm involved with, but I think the time is getting close. I imagine something like that could rile up a few feathers at at least one of the churches if we actually got down-and-outers to attend.

Solo and aLoneVoice, if I were involved in Bible studies and small prayer groups at your church, and was hesitant to be baptized, would I become a burden of sorts after a while? I hope and pray I won't.

Anyways, thanks again for your answers and prayers everyone. And Vic, thanks for that link! I pray God will lead all of us to where we need to be and what we need to be doing.

 

[AVBunyan]

1. The only thing I don't want to do is be rebaptized. I've been baptized as a baby and I feel once is enough.
2. I feel maybe I should stay with the Lutheran Church to honor my father and mother.

1. Hey folks - I posted an old edited article on baptism not to stir it up (really) but because if saints/churches understood this doctrine then Veritas would not even be having this dilema.

2. For what it's worth - If you feel the Lutheran church is violating the major doctrines then that would be a reason to leave but...but...(not knowing your age here) if you are still under your parents' authority then your duty is to honor your parents (a direct command) and trust God for you staying at your Lutheran church.

Duties never conflict. 8-)

God bless

 

[Solo]

Solo and aLoneVoice, if I were involved in Bible studies and small prayer groups at your church, and was hesitant to be baptized, would I become a burden of sorts after a while? I hope and pray I won't.

No, you would not be a burden. You would be prayed for, loved, and taught about baptism at your request. As I indicated previously, my mother was not baptized until 40+ years after her salvation. Was she saved? Yes. Did she get baptized after understanding the meaning of baptism? Yes.

 

[Guest]

No, you would not be a burden. You would be prayed for, loved, and taught about baptism at your request. As I indicated previously, my mother was not baptized until 40+ years after her salvation. Was she saved? Yes. Did she get baptized after understanding the meaning of baptism? Yes.

And I would say that the same is true of my church as well.

One note of caution if you will, in regards to being a 'light' or 'witness' in a paticular church or not. I was raised in the Episcopal church (Catholite Lite, if you will). After coming to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ - I saw it that way, because I 'knew' who Jesus was, I would not have called it a saving knowledge' - I thought that my place would be to be a light in the Epsicopal Chruch - however, after seeking council from a college professor - he suggested that it would be better for me to become strong in the faith and understanding under sound teaching - and then perhaps someday go back. I believe it was Paul who waited 13 years (I might be a little off on the years) before he began his public ministry after his conversion.

I am not suggesting that the 13 years is a divine number - rather, he took time to be taught, study and learn.

 

[Veritas]

AVBunyan,

I see what you are getting at. I am "grown up" and live out on my own, I have for... almost 10 years now. I know that my parents worried and prayed for me when I was lost. But no, I am not under their authority now.

I'll admit I'm the conflicted one and not The Word. Can't pass the buck on that one.

Thanks for the responses, Solo and aLoneVoice. Good to know.

 

[jgredline]

One note of caution if you will, in regards to being a 'light' or 'witness' in a paticular church or not.

Alone. Yes, I agree with you and certainly not encourage a believer who is not well Grounded to try and do some of what I have suggested....I based my thoughts on a couple of things...

I have read many of his posts over the months and have read how he has defended the word of God and the deity of Jesus Christ on this board and I have visited his website a few times...These two things tell me allot about the person...He has a heart for people and a heart to search for the truth...I did not mention anything on baptism, because, frankly, I felt the Holy Spirit would simply let him know through his studies and the advice he would receive from others...mY theology on Baptism as is most of my theology is right in line with Solos, so there was no need for me to speak on that...since he would have that covered...

The one thing that I should have and others should have mentioned and frankly it is the best advice that I can give to you Craig is to ''Pray about it''...Fast for a few days....while you read and study the scriptures...The Holy Spirit will lead you to all truth and will lead you down the right path....May the lORD bless you and protect you....

Javier

 

[cyberjosh]

I was going to put this into the Christian Advice section, but I didn't because this could turn into a debate. That said, I would rather have advice instead of a debate.

Here's the story. I grew up in a Lutheran Church (Missouri Synod). I attend a Presbyterian Church. I do a Bible study with a Baptist group. I've done a little worship with the Baptist group and I've gone back to worship at the Lutheran Church a few times too.

I think I'm in this mess because I went through a period in my life where I really struggled, looking back I don't even know if I was a believer, thank God He's saved me but now I have some choices to make about my church family.

I wish I didn't have to choose between these, but I feel I do. I believe all have the Truth but I also believe that just going to one is the only right thing to do if I want to give my full time to a church "family".

Out of all these, I get the feeling the Baptist's are the most outwardly passionate about their faith and I can relate with them quite well. The only thing I don't want to do is be rebaptized. I've been baptized as a baby and I feel once is enough. I feel maybe I should stay with the Lutheran Church to honor my father and mother. Missouri Synod Lutherans seem to be a bit more austere in their reverance towards God (whereas I'm a pretty passionate person) but that particular Synod of Lutherans are just as solid in their beliefs as the Baptists. And I actually agree more with the way Lutherans view Baptism and The Lords Supper than the other two. I started going to the Presbyterian Church because I just found the worship services very edifying. However, after doing research on the Church I've found that the people on top are quite wishy-washy in their belief. But, I'm reluctant to leave the Presbyterian Church because I've made many friends there and they've been great support for me through trials and they, (unlike the people on the top of the church organization) are pretty solid in their beliefs.

So, I know that Fnerb is a Wisconsin Synod Lutheran (Which is very close to the Missouri Synod I grew up in) and Solo for one, I know is a Baptist, and aLoneVoice is a Anabaptist that, I think, believes in rebaptism. I'd love to hear from all three of you at least. Anyone here who is Presbyterian/Reformed?

So you are trying to find a "home Church", is that it? Well if so really the choice is up to you and God. You should pray over this if you feel a pressing need to settle down with one particular Church. I go on and off to 4 different Churches depending on where I am each weekend. I live near my Campus so I go to a church near by every Wednesday and have even preached there a few times. Sometimes on weekends I'll go up to my Grandparent's house in Birmingham and I'll go to Church with them (and I'm great friends with many people there & have known them for years), when I go home to my Mom and Dad's house my Dad likes going to this local Baptist Church in Arab and my Mom goes to the Rock in Huntsville, a non-denominational Spirit filled Church. Two of those Churches are Baptist Churches and the other two are either non-denominational or non-denominational-leaning-charismatic-yet-Biblical-based (in otherwords they are not afraid to dance like David before the Lord ). Either way the reason I continue to go to those Churches is because they all have God's special anointing and I learn something each time I go to them. You don't necessarily have to settle down with a certain Church if you don't want to, there is no moral obligation to do so, but at the very least have friends and fellow Christians who you can associate regularly for edification (and I have tons of people who I can do that with). But I would pray about it and see how it works out.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

...You should pray over this if you feel a pressing need to settle down with one particular Church. I go on and off to 4 different Churches depending on where I am each weekend...

Wow Cyber,
That seemed to spark something here.
I dropped out of church after my pastor was forced into retirement. I have been reluctant to join a new church after seeing what the mob did to the church I belonged to for over eighteen years.

It totally grieves me to see satans children standing in the pulpit and pretending to teach the gospel.

Perhaps attending several churches is the answer! Pray for me and see if this is what the Lord is leading me to do, okay? Thanks.