Bought at a price

[Heidi]

I know that most of us don't want to believe that we are slaves. Most of us would like to see ourselves as free. But paradoxically, being a slave to righteousness brings the only freedom attainable because God has freed us from the bondage of sin and instead has given us incredible love for being slaves to His righteousness. None of us can be slaves to righteousness without the power of the Holy Spirit because we are slaves to the sinful nature.

Here are some things common to slaves:

1) They were bought at a price
2) They did not choose to become slaves
3) They are compelled to obey their masters or face punishment and/or death
4) Being a slave or servant is considered the lowliest form of life by wordly people as true Christians are
5) Being a slave is considered the highest form of humanity by God

Paul says in Romans 7:25, "So then I myself in my mind am a slave to God's laws, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin."

Paul makes it clear that there is no free choice. He is a slave either to the sinful nature or to God. Romans 8:9 also verifies that.

But the sinful nature says the opposite. it says: "I make my own choices." "I want to do as I please." I don't want to be a servant. I want to be served." So man doesn't accept that he has no freedom gracefully because slavery is considered the antithesis of human happiness to worldly people. But it is considered the opposite by God.


According to Christ, being a slave (servant) is the highest form of humanity. There are many reasons for this, one of which is that all slaves are bought at a price and didn't choose to be slaves, so they cannot rebel."He who humbles himself will be exalted and he who exalts himself will be humbled." God allows slavery for many reasons, one of which is to show slaves how to treat our masters:

1) We obey him with a joyful heart regardless of how he treats us
2) We do not seek the good of ourselves but the good of our masters
3) We don't have the freedom to live as we please because we were bought at a price

God shows us the freedom in slavery and why the greatest among us will be servants. Once our hearts are changed by the Holy Spirit, we become slaves to God yet freed from the bondgae of sin. Only the holy Spirit can make us righteous and only the holy Spirit can give us the joyful heart of a servant. Otherwise, man rebels against servanthood.

So being a robot (slave, or servant) is total and complete surrender to God. There is no resistance and no rebellion, only complete obedience. That is what God wants and only He can give us the power to achieve that.

 

[Devekut]

Whereas I would argue that becoming a slave to Christ is an operation of our free will. Consciously co-operating and surrending to the Holy Spirit, our God-given capacity to choose and decide is united to the will of the Father.

If we are to speak of ourselves as "robots" it is nevertheless as robots conscious of every decision and action. I suppose in that sense, our voluntary slavery transforms in the excercise of free will into a intimiate sonship or kinhood.

 

[lovely]

The underlying cause of man's movement toward God is the drawing of the Holy Spirit, but once a man has been given life through the Spirit...literally a participation in the divine nature as one who has been conformed to the image of Christ...his will (now free to do what it was created to do) is to worship God, and to follow after Him in constant fashion (through any circumstance) and in unforced love.

Because we are born of God, given life, we have the ability to delight in the law of Christ, in love, freely as ones designed for the task...because we were. That's why it's so satisfying. So, we can know Him through a caused relationship (such as birth, or election) and have a proper fear for who He is, but also love Him as one we have chosen (as a bride or friend) and have an inclination in our hearts to please....much like a child with a good parent or a new bride with her husband. Both aspects of our relationship with God keep us on the path to being overcomers, and neither indicate that we are robots or that we have a 'free' will prior to gaining life. Just my thoughts, the Lord bless you both.

 

[Heidi]

Whereas I would argue that becoming a slave to Christ is an operation of our free will. Consciously co-operating and surrending to the Holy Spirit, our God-given capacity to choose and decide is united to the will of the Father.

If we are to speak of ourselves as "robots" it is nevertheless as robots conscious of every decision and action. I suppose in that sense, our voluntary slavery transforms in the excercise of free will into a intimiate sonship or kinhood.

Then we are not slaves if we are choosing to be a slave. The very definition of a slave is it is against our will. Paul no more chose Christ than Jacob chose God. So once again as jesus says, "You did not choose me. I chose you."

The sinful nature can't tolerate the thought that we have a master. Man rebeles against being a slave as much as he rebels against God. Only the holy Spirit can make us believe and love God.

 

[Heidi]

The underlying cause of man's movement toward God is the drawing of the Holy Spirit, but once a man has been given life through the Spirit...literally a participation in the divine nature as one who has been conformed to the image of Christ...his will (now free to do what it was created to do) is to worship God, and to follow after Him in constant fashion (through any circumstance) and in unforced love.

Because we are born of God, given life, we have the ability to delight in the law of Christ, in love, freely as ones designed for the task...because we were. That's why it's so satisfying. So, we can know Him through a caused relationship (such as birth, or election) and have a proper fear for who He is, but also love Him as one we have chosen (as a bride or friend) and have an inclination in our hearts to please....much like a child with a good parent or a new bride with her husband. Both aspects of our relationship with God keep us on the path to being overcomers, and neither indicate that we are robots or that we have a 'free' will prior to gaining life. Just my thoughts, the Lord bless you both.

And what do you think makes us participate? Our wonderful pure nature or the Holy Spirit? Who do you think changes our hearts? Us or the Holy Spirit? Do you know why gifts are called spiritual gifts and fruit is called fruit of the Spirit? Where does the bible say anywhere that these things come from ourselves? :o

 

[lovely]

Hi Heidi,

Thanks for the questions, but my post does not say that those things come from us...here are a few quotes that indicates I believe the opposite is actually true. I believe God draws, and maybe I was unclear...calls, elects, etc. It's only in new life that we are able to freely serve. I think on this particular point we agree. Maybe I am misunderstanding your post somehow...I don't know, forgive me if I am.

The underlying cause of man's movement toward God is the drawing of the Holy Spirit, but once a man has been given life through the Spirit

So, we can know Him through a caused relationship (such as birth, or election)

The Lord bless you.

 

[Heidi]

Hi Heidi,

Thanks for the questions, but my post does not say that those things come from us...here are a few quotes that indicates I believe the opposite is actually true. I believe God draws, and maybe I was unclear...calls, elects, etc. It's only in new life that we are able to freely serve. I think on this particular point we agree. Maybe I am misunderstanding your post somehow...I don't know, forgive me if I am.



The Lord bless you.

I agree. It's the Spirit that opens our hearts, eyes, and gives us the faith to believe. It's the Spirit that "moves" us to follow God's decrees and obey his laws as Ezekiel 36:27 & 1 Corinthians 2:14 tells us. So again, man thinking that he is making the decision to do these things on his own, is not only false, but prideful as well. :

 

[sisterchristian]

I know that most of us don't want to believe that we are slaves. Most of us would like to see ourselves as free. But paradoxically, being a slave to righteousness brings the only freedom attainable because God has freed us from the bondage of sin and instead has given us incredible love for being slaves to His righteousness. None of us can be slaves to righteousness without the power of the Holy Spirit because we are slaves to the sinful nature.

Here are some things common to slaves:

1) They were bought at a price
2) They did not choose to become slaves
3) They are compelled to obey their masters or face punishment and/or death
4) Being a slave or servant is considered the lowliest form of life by wordly people as true Christians are
5) Being a slave is considered the highest form of humanity by God

Paul says in Romans 7:25, "So then I myself in my mind am a slave to God's laws, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin."

Paul makes it clear that there is no free choice. He is a slave either to the sinful nature or to God. Romans 8:9 also verifies that.

But the sinful nature says the opposite. it says: "I make my own choices." "I want to do as I please." I don't want to be a servant. I want to be served." So man doesn't accept that he has no freedom gracefully because slavery is considered the antithesis of human happiness to worldly people. But it is considered the opposite by God.


According to Christ, being a slave (servant) is the highest form of humanity. There are many reasons for this, one of which is that all slaves are bought at a price and didn't choose to be slaves, so they cannot rebel."He who humbles himself will be exalted and he who exalts himself will be humbled." God allows slavery for many reasons, one of which is to show slaves how to treat our masters:

1) We obey him with a joyful heart regardless of how he treats us
2) We do not seek the good of ourselves but the good of our masters
3) We don't have the freedom to live as we please because we were bought at a price

God shows us the freedom in slavery and why the greatest among us will be servants. Once our hearts are changed by the Holy Spirit, we become slaves to God yet freed from the bondgae of sin. Only the holy Spirit can make us righteous and only the holy Spirit can give us the joyful heart of a servant. Otherwise, man rebels against servanthood.

So being a robot (slave, or servant) is total and complete surrender to God. There is no resistance and no rebellion, only complete obedience. That is what God wants and only He can give us the power to achieve that.

Can you believe that I told someone that we were bought at a price, and they took offense to that, saying thAt it made what god did for us sound cheap and they went on to say that they weren't a hooker! I was speechless! :o

 

[Heidi]

Can you believe that I told someone that we were bought at a price, and they took offense to that, saying thAt it made what god did for us sound cheap and they went on to say that they weren't a hooker! I was speechless! :o

Lost souls.

 

[sisterchristian]

Lost souls.

The sad thing is that they claim to be Christians!

 

[Heidi]

The sad thing is that they claim to be Christians!

Amen! Paul said; 'For there will come a time when men will not adhere to sound doctrine but instead, to suit their own desires, will gather around them a great number of teachers who say what itching ears want to hear." So true Christians who adhere to sound doctrine will be in the minority, both in the world and among other Christians. Therefore, I consider it a compliment to be in the minority. Blessed are ye for being persecuted for my sake."

 

[Bick]

Personally, I can see the Sovereign Will of God and a permissive will of God.

My thinking is based, primarily, on what Paul lays down in Romans 9-11:

First, we read that God says to Moses "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 9:15, NIV

"It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy." 9:16.

Then, we are told that God raised up Pharaoh (made things happen that made Pharaoh ruler of Egypt) so that God might display His power in Pharaoh, and that God's name might be proclaimed in all the earth. 9:17.

Paul then uses the analogy of the potter and the clay: God, the potter, is making from the same lump of clay, vessels for honor, and vessels for dishonour.

Is this right or fair? God not only has objects of his mercy (those who are the called) to whom he makes known the greatness of His glory;
but also is making objects of his wrath fitted for destruction.

Since God is the potter, he can do as He wills. And, yet, each of us must give account of our deeds during this life.

For those in the ecclesia/body of Christ, it will, IMO, be in the heavenlies after we are caught away to meet the Lord in the air and taken to the heavenlies (see Rom. 9:10-12; 2 Cor. 5:10).

For believing Israelites and proselytes, I would believe it is at the beginning of the Messianic Kingdom, after Christ's coming again to the earth.

The 'rest of the dead' are raised to be judged for their deeds at the Great White Throne (Rev.20:11-15).

Bick

 

[Vic C.]

Personally, I can see the Sovereign Will of God and a permissive will of God.

I see it this way too, Bick.

Paul then uses the analogy of the potter and the clay: God, the potter, is making from the same lump of clay, vessels for honor, and vessels for dishonour.

Is this right or fair? God not only has objects of his mercy (those who are the called) to whom he makes known the greatness of His glory;
but also is making objects of his wrath fitted for destruction.

Since God is the potter, he can do as He wills. And, yet, each of us must give account of our deeds during this life.

Bick, I'm glad you brought this up. If I may sidetrack the thread for a moment...

We can ignore the circlular reasoning behind God's will to create vessels of destruction vs. our accountablilty, if one chooses to do so. That goes back to your statement about God's sovereign and permissive will.

My question; where did Paul get this from?

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

 

[mondar]

Romans 7:25 and the use of douleuo

Rom 7:25 ευχαριστω τω Θεω διὰ Ιησου Χριστου του Κυρίου ημων. ρα ον αυτὸς εγὼ τω μὲν νο δουλεύω νόμω Θεου, τη δὲ σαρκὶ νόμω αμαρτίας.

ASV Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then I of myself with the mind, indeed, serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

KJV Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Thayer Definition:
1) to be a slave, serve, do service
1a) of a nation in subjection to other nations
2) metaphorically to obey, submit to
2a) in a good sense, to yield obedience
2b) in a bad sense, of those who become slaves

I have cut and pasted the greek NT, ASV, KJV and Thayers defination for douleuo into the quote above. I hope it somehow helps. What I want to talk about is the word "serve." I think there are some implications.

First, let me say that I have a fear that too many will read this post only far enough to see what is says about "free will" or no free will. If that is what you are going to do, read no further. To see volition or choice in this text is a farce. On the other hand, the text is talking about the lack of free will in salvation. In fact this text is not talking about people coming to faith at all. Rather it is talking about about people who have already been regenerated and saved.

Lets define the word. "Serve" is actually a very general english word used to translate several greek words. These greek words have very different connotations. The word diakainos refers to a household servant. This is a payed servant who chooses to serve a household. This term is not used in the context, but rather it is the term "douleuo." This term refers to involuntary servitude, or slavery. This is one who serves against his will.

"To serve as a bond slave" is the root meaning of the term douleuo. We should now ask what are we slaves to. What are we in bondage to? The word "serve" (douleuo) is used in verse 25 to refer to the slavery of the mind to the law of God. What Paul has done is to combine statement from Chapter 6 and Chapter 7. In 6:22 Paul has already said that we are "slaves" (doulothentes) of God. In 7:22 Pauls speaks of a mindset where he delights in the law of God. This is not the Mosaic Law, that is clear from the context (and I dont wish to get into this issue). This "Law of God" leads to being a slave of righteousness (see 6:18). It all sounds great so far. Here is the problem.

The 2nd part of 7:25 talks about the bondage of the flesh to sin. This goes back to a statement in 6:20 ("you were servants of sin, and free from righteousness"). So christians have a problem. In the Christian life there is a bondage of the mind to righteousness and God, but the flesh is still bound to sin, sin nature, and unrighteousness. After 7:22 tells us of the law of God, Romans 7:23 immediately warns us of the other bondage, the law of the flesh (in the members of Pauls body). The two slavery issues are both present in the Christian. Sometimes the war might be so bad that we might throw up our hands and complain "o wretched man that I am! (verse 24). When we were not saved there was no war between the mind and flesh. We were one in our rebellion against God. We loved our sin with both mind and flesh. After regeneration, the mind is a slave of God, but the flesh is a slave of sin. This makes for the struggle between mind and flesh, between righteousness and sin.

The answer to this struggle is found in 8:1. The only way for the mind not to condemn us is for the Christian to have a spiritual walk which does not walk after the flesh, but walks after the Spirit (which strengthens the mind). Of course this walk can be in bondage to the Mosaic Law or some form of legalism (Chapter 7:1-14). This will lead to bondage to sin int he Christian life because any form of law or legalism leads to fleshliness, and thus bondage to sin (7:14). But this is another story.

Brothers, there is a way which Christ has made us free from sin.
Rom 6:7 for he that hath died is justified from sin.
Rom 6:18 and being made free from sin, ye became servants of righteousness.

This is not sinless perfection, but a legal declaration of freedom from sin. Romans 7:25 is telling us that since we are legally free from sin, we should live that way.

 

[mondar]

I know coming up I am going to meander with miscellaneous random thoughts that might not say much. But I want to let my mind (excuse the pun) wonder over the text of Romans 8.

Romans 8:9 is quoted by Heidi's post. This text might bear further discussion. I briefly want to make on statement concerning that text.

We are not in the flesh, but the flesh is in us. I notice in 7:8 Paul says that he does not sin, but sin dwells in him and sin sins. Sin in that text is sin nature. It is the sin nature that comes alive because of keeping the Law.

Romans 8:5 speaks of being after the things of the flesh. Verse 6 speaks of being fleshly minded. Yet, verse 23 says that the law of the mind is at war with the flesh. I dont see how 8:5 can be referring to a mind of flesh.

If it speaks of saved people, it must refer not to a mind which generates fleshliness, but fleshliness which is controling a spiritual mind.

In Romans 8:3 it says how Jesus condemned sin in the flesh. I dont think he banishes sin in the flesh, but comdemns it by two means.
1--He creates the mind of righteousness
2--He breaks our bondage to sin and the flesh in chapter 6:16-23.

Also, I think the textual issue is important to note in 8:1...

Gotta go. Hope you followed some of these meanderings.