Veritas,
And how else can I relate with a brother in Christ like I'm assuming and praying you are, without Scriptures? All traditions within different denominations are different... I believe "traditions" are fine when they line up with what Scriptures say, and when they are done by the individual in a way that is glorifying to God.
this is true, all traditions are different and that is the problem. That is why they cannot align with each other. We are only speaking of the Holy Tradition. Relative to Holy Tradition, traditions are all outside of scripture. These are customs, nuances, normative traditions that one finds in all different churches. That is immaterial to anything. However, Protestants have made Holy Tradition into their own traditions.
Lets go back to the examples I posted in my last post. Baptism, it was set as a practice by the Apostles as they established each Church. Same for the Eurcharist. Paul explained that it was the Body and Blood of Christ that they were partaking. It is an actual participation in that sacrifice. It is exactly as Paul is stating it. It is so explained by all the very earliest Church Fathers from many different areas of that time. However, most protestants make this into a true memory concept, like a birthday party. We simply remember an historical event, like the Fourth of July. Now, if one would actually reinact this, for example, the battle of Bunker Hill, which is actually done in Boston, then it is more like the Orthodox concept of participation, not a memory.
Now, Baptism. Romans 6 is the Baptism Chapter. It is describing regenerative baptism. Not only the meaning, the form and the intent but the practice is all recorded many times over from the very earliest.
And I could go on and on.
This brings up another thing. What exactly do you mean by "The Tradition"? If you are talking about simply having a relationship with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ then yeah... I agree with it, I'm right there with ya brother. I just have a hard time understanding "tradition" in much of a favorable light considering Jesus was tearing them down all the time (for good reason).
Tradition is all of the Gospel once given. It is the Oral and practical establishment of the All Truth that was imparted to the Apostels to establish His Church here on earth.
Yes, Jesus was constantly berating all the traditions of men. Paul also warns against the traditions of men. History has proven him correct 100%.
You mentioned the Lords Supper and Baptism and I believe enough is said about both in the Bible. I think both are very important, edifying, and a means of grace from God, but I don't believe either are essential to salvation.
That is precisely why Tradition is what it is and why protestants have made it a tradition. The Bible is quite emphatic on both that they are salvfic. We are concretely changed by baptism, in fact, regenerated. How more salvfic is that.
The Eucharist, Jesus, plainly stated that IF you do NOT eat of my flesh and blood, you have no life in you. How emphatic is that? How salvfic is that?
Jesus did not say, repent and if you would like, I prefer that you be baptised. If you do, it is just a reminder that I died, was buried, and resurrected for your sakes. NO, we are partakers of the Divine Nature, II Pet 1:4. We are living IN Christ. This is not an external existance, but ontological. It is organic in nature. Christ assumed our nature so that we could partake in the Divine Nature.
It is ALL salvfic. We are being changed, transformed, renewed, regenerated, cleansed, sanctified, made holy, becoming the Mind of Christ. We are in the process of being healed.
Of course, baptism of the Holy Spirit is essential
Again, Tradition backs up Scripture here. One cannot even receive the Holy Spirit UNLESS one is baptised. We recieve the Holy Spirit, the indwelling Holy Spirit as a result of being baptised INTO Christ. But that is again 'Tradition made into tradition.
but I don't believe that always coincides with a water baptism; just look at the thief beside Jesus on the cross who was saved without the lords supper or water baptism.
We follow the rule, not the exception. One can also argue that the NT had not yet taken effect. Christ had not yet arisen and the Holy Spirit had not come since Christ had not Ascended as yet.
We leave the exceptions to Him. He is the Judge. We are instructed to follow His teachings.
I agree with you that the Holy Spirit lives within us, and that we are in the Body of Christ among other believers. But I do not think the Body of Christ is soley represented by any one denomination, Protestant, Roman Catholic, or Orthodox.
It is represented by the Church He founded in this world, which is embodied in Orthodoxy, or the Orthodox Church.
I know you will disagree, but you cannot disprove it historically, nor scripturally. But the Orthodox Church is not a denomination, it is not even an organization. The Orthodox Church is a membership of autocephalous Churchs, who could be called denominations, or definitely are organizations, who are United as ONE IN Christ. One Lord, One Baptism. We are unifed in faith and practice, IN Christ. That is the unity spoken of in John 17 of Christ with the Trinity, with the Disciples, with His Church and He prays that all the world would come to know Him and thereby be united IN HIM.
I agree, as you said, that believers together are the the Body of Christ and that he is the head, but remember that together, we are also Christs bride. Remember what kind of bride we are, and why Christ had to do what He did for His bride.
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. Ephesians 5:25-27
Yes, we are the Body of Christ, but we are also Christ's bride, and as such we are not perfect and need to be cleansed by Him. It is still only through Him that the Church is what it is.
That is true, we constantly sin and are in need of constant forgiveness. We also sin against others and they sin against us. We need to forgive them and seek their forgiveness as well. We are continually being sanctified. We will never be perfect in this life. But that does not mean we can just forfeit the goal and admit defeat and slump away. I can do all things through Him who strengthens me.
I don't understand your objection to me saying that the Holy Spirit maintains Truth in an individual, because of the fact that the Holy Spirit resides within us and because that ultimately IS personal. It is between you and Jesus and no one else on judgement day. Same for me, same for everyone.
We have All Truth given to us 2000 years ago. The Holy Spirit leads us to that Truth. We accept that Truth, His Truth, and yes, then that Truth is maintained in that individual.
But the Holy Spirit does not give you Truth in the sense of new revelations as He did the Apostles. This is what Sola Scriptura has done for 500 years. Introduced a lot of personal, man-made interpretations, or new truths, that were never given from the beginning. That is the test of false doctrine all through the ages. It is why in every single instance, individual truth, or even group truth has always ended up being false, or not from the beginning.
Now, what I seem to hear you actually saying here, is the Holy Spirit leads each and every person differently into personal truth. If that were so, then that also contradicts scripture. There is ONLY ONE way to Christ. That way is guarded, protected by the Holy Spirit as ONE FAITH, not hundreds of ways through a myriad of many truths and faiths.
And I think all believers can say that they believe in the Gospel as given in the beginning. Its written down in the Bible.
But protestants have not come close to showing that. All they have done is taken the written portion, isolated it from the whole, the context in which it was given, and then imposed their interpretations upon it. That is not the Gospel from the beginning. None a single thing in Protestantism can be linked to the beginning. For some they have accepted some early Church teachings, Incarnation, or the Trinity, though in practice and theology, this is not true for many either.
The Bible specifically is not what is being preserved and guarded. It is the Gospel once given, within His Body where the Holy Spirit works within the members of that Body to preserve both.
Its written down in the Bible. Maybe I'm just an optimist but I do see a unified belief throughout believers in different denominations. I do see One Faith, One, Lord, One Baptism.
These are words written down in the Bible. But the Bible is not a treatise, a manual, nor a theology book, nor a systmatic practice of faith.
You may see something unified, but all I see is a hodge podge, a very confused mass who are scruying around trying to find Truth, when we have had it for 2000 years. We are not supposed to spend our lives trying to find it, but accept it and live it. Christianity is a way of life. It is a life to be lived IN Christ. If you do not know precisely where that road is, nor how to get on it, you may miss it during your life.
But I would hope (and I have seen in the cases of Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli ) that each one is pointing back to Christ.
But which Christ. That of Calvin or Luther or even Joseph Smith, or Eddy?
So that we can look at each one of those thinkers or individuals, hear what they say, and follow the finger that points back to the Gospel and understand the Gospel for ourselves through the Holy Spirit
That is just it, it is their interpretation of that ONLY written portion. Then it is your either all acceptance their formulations, or you will only accept some, then rely on your own intellect to ascertain the rest. It becomes YOUR Gospel, according to Veritas or Veritasism. This is exactly what Paul was exhorting the Corinthians, it is not Apollo, or any other, but Christ.
It cannot be of the Holy Spirit. Is the Holy Spirit confused? Why is not the Bible authoritative and if the Holy Spirit, it should be uniform every single time.