Christian Liberty

[handy]

Certain recent discussions here on the forum have kept me pondering something these past few days. Questions have been raised about Yoga, how much wealth a Christian can have, even whether an older woman can marry a younger man. There are also forums all across the world discussion such things as reading Harry Potter or celebrating Christmas or Halloween. These questions are interesting, and I think worthwhile to discuss, but to me there is an underlying theme uniting these questions as well as other current issues facing the church.

I find the underlying theme to be what Christian liberty truly is. I think Christian liberty is well established Biblically. But, 2100 years later, it still doesn't seem to be established in the Body of Christ. We still seem to be a people who feel we have the right to tell others what they can and cannot do.

When I read through the Scriptures, I find a lot of things that places limits on my own behaviors. I know what things the Spirit convicts me of. But, while the Spirit may convict me regarding certain things, I'll be the first to admit that He might not be convicting a brother or sister in the Lord regarding the same issue.

An example I was thinking of earlier would be guided meditations. I know that guided meditations are becomming more and more popular within some churches. The women's retreat I was at this summer held a guided meditation. I refrained from doing it, because I just cannot find this to be appropriate for me to do. To me, prayer is a deeply personal thing, and to open my spirit and mind to allow another human to take the reigns is just something I find New Age and Eastern, not Christian. I won't undergo hypnosis for the same reason. But, obviously the Pastor and the ladies at the retreat who took part in it, didn't feel that way about it at all. I don't think I have any kind of authority to tell those ladies that they cannot or should not join a guided meditation. I don't think they're Biblical, but who am I to tell them how they should pray.

So, what about Christian liberty. Do we as Christians have the right to tell the servant of another Master what books they can read, what movies they can watch, what exercise programs they can engage in, or what holiday's they can celebrate? Is there a line between saying "I cannot in good conscience do this" and "You cannot as a Christian do that"?

 

[Guest]

What do you mean: "another Master"?

Handy - one of the things I see is all too often people just assuming it is "okay" without giving it thought, prayer, or consideration.

 

[handy]

What do you mean: "another Master"?

Handy - one of the things I see is all too often people just assuming it is "okay" without giving it thought, prayer, or consideration.

I took the phrase "another Master" from Romans 14:1-4 which states

"Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgement on his opinions. One man has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only. Let not him who eats regard with contempt him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats, for God has accepted him.
Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and stand he will, for the Lord is able to make him stand."

I believe this text to be crucial to in the understanding of Christian liberty, and I believe it states in essense that we are servants of God who is our Judge. When I say to you, "You cannot", I need to keep in mind that you're not answerable to me, but rather to God. He is your master not I.

And, just so that I'm not coming off as too sanctimonious here, I freely admit to the same issue of telling others what they can and can't do. Witness my own disagreement with Free in the Weath thread when I stated that Christians shouldn't give money to someone if it's fairly obvious that the money will be used to buy drugs or alcohol. If an addict is laying in the street with lines up his arms and used needles nearby, and a Christian walks up and gives him money, I admit, I'd be judging the Christian for that action and most likely would say something to him or her about it. Do I have the right to do so?

aLV, you also stated that too often you see people assuming that 'its' OK without giving it thought, prayer or consideration. And, I agree that I've seen brothers and sisters who act in certain ways without having ever wondered if it is Godly. But, I think too often we will assume a lack of thought, prayer and consideration on the part of a person, simply if they are doing something we disagree with. Example: I love Christmas, Halloween, Easter, even 4th of July. I love all the holidays, and I'm one of those middle-aged 'sweater ladies' who walk around with jingle bells on my shirt each December. I can't tell you how often a brother or sister has rebuked me for not understanding how pagan I'm acting. Frankly, I know church history better than you might think, and have put a lot of thought, prayer and consideration to the issue of these Amercianized holiday traditions. Now, I know that you aLoneVoice, would never accuse me of simply assuming that celebrating traditional American holidays without thought or prayer, but you'd be surprised at how often it happens.

 

[Guest]

Then perhaps rather than telling the brother or sister "not" to do it, ask the brother or sister "how" they have thought, prayed, or considered the action.

Too often, people do not want to be the one left out. Hey, if that pastor is doing it - then it must be okay, or look at the whole group of Christian ladies, they are doing it, so it must be okay.

Perhaps all we need to do is enter into dialogue with one another about "it"?

 

[antitox]

Ultimately, I think that deep-down we know if what we are doing is right or not. Even some of the most well-meaning people have ignored that inner conviction at one time or another. As long as we learn from our mistakes, we are better off.

Liberty is something that I understand to be truly personal, almost in the same relation as worship is. Why? Because it is before his master that he stands or falls. So this is not speaking of peers, but the Master only.

No one is the same in their relation or connection to God; it is unique to the individual. Therefore a liberty that one may experience with a clear conscience, another person may not. I'm not talking about sin here, I'm talking about certain freedoms where some may draw lines and another may not.

Relationship with God is only limited by that person's choice to go farther with the Lord or not, and the liberty that is experienced is really only known in that person's heart. What he has with God, and the foundations of that understanding and relationship are hidden from everyone else. This is truly a unique connection that God has with each believer.

 

[handy]

Thanks for your input, antitox, I agree with your post.

aLV, I like the approach of dialog versus "don't do that", but I wonder why we as Christians even feel we must enter into dialog about 'it'. That's what is at the heart of my questions here: Why do we think we have the authority to question and/or judge what another brother or sister in the Lord does?

If I see someone doing 'it': drinking a beer, watching an R rated movie, reading a Stephen King novel, does the Bible give me the authority to determine that these things are 'wrong' and therefore I must somehow convince my brother or sister to stop doing it?

 

[Guest]

Thanks for your input, antitox, I agree with your post.

aLV, I like the approach of dialog versus "don't do that", but I wonder why we as Christians even feel we must enter into dialog about 'it'. That's what is at the heart of my questions here: Why do we think we have the authority to question and/or judge what another brother or sister in the Lord does?

If I see someone doing 'it': drinking a beer, watching an R rated movie, reading a Stephen King novel, does the Bible give me the authority to determine that these things are 'wrong' and therefore I must somehow convince my brother or sister to stop doing it?

If it is potentially harmful to their faith - why would we want to just let it go by?

Think about it, do we not warn people who "run around a swimming pool"? How do we know if they can swim or not swim - why do we make that assumption that they might hurt themselves, we don't know.

Everytime I got in the car to drive, my mom would say "be careful". Did she think I was going to go speeding down the highway or drive carelessly? No.

Perhaps "we" who are getting offended should realize that the brother or sister has our best interest in mind.

Ultimately, "am I my brother's keeper?"

 

[handy]

This is what I'm struggling with. I do believe that to a certain extent we are our brother's keeper, and as it says in James 5:19-20, if we turn a sinner from the error of his way, we have saved his soul from death. But, it just seems as though our list of 'sins' include a lot of rather petty things that I wonder if we have the right to judge as sin.

Take for example the 'sin' of gambling. I live out west where there are a lot of casinos. Most Christians around here figure there is nothing wrong with gambling, and you will even find in a lot of churches, especially in Nevada, where people will stand in the congregation and give God all praise for their gambling winnings.

Now, I lived in North Carolina for a while, and I can guarantee you, the congregation would go into cardiac arrest if anyone stood up on Sunday morning and gave praise to God for Blackjack winnings. However, I wouldn't advise trying to tell the good folks of Winston-Salem that smoking is a sin.

It's this relativisim that is bothering me. Which is why I wonder if there is a more biblical standard of how to determine when to speak out against sin and when to chalk something up to liberty.

 

[antitox]

Since gambling/sin has been brought up, I'll throw my 2cents in on it.

I don't think that the gambling thing is a sin in and of itself. It is, in esssence a game of chance. Yes, people can get hooked on it, like anything else. We play the stock market too.

Some people like to take a vacation and go to Vegas to play the slots. My dad used to. Now he lives there and doesn't play them anymore. It can be a novelty for people, and sometimes a boon for some.

For years we have had our "list" of sins for the church to abhor and snob at. Some of it really isn't sin, IMO. But ANYTHING that controls you or robs you of the ability/freedom to seek God and obey Him is where sin comes into play. For example, addiction, compulsion, or excess in something, robs you of your service to God or causes disobedience in some way.

Yes, some things are outright wrong, but I went ahead and threw away my "list" sometime back.

 

[Guest]

What is sin? Is sin a list of deeds that we are not supposed to do? Hardly.

For one, in this discussion it sounds like we are only discussing sins of comission. What about "NOT" doing something that we should do? There are sins of omission as well.

Get to the root of what sin is, and you should find your answer.

In regards to "gambling" - who or what are we supposed to rely on? God or "Sin City"?

 

[handy]

What about this definintion of sin:

Sin is nothing more or less than rebelling against God's will for our life.

Therefore if God wants me to do something, and I don't do it, I sin. If God wants me not to do something and I do it, I sin. As long as I conform my will to the will of God, I walk in righteousness.

 

[Guest]

What about this definintion of sin:

Sin is nothing more or less than rebelling against God's will for our life.

Therefore if God wants me to do something, and I don't do it, I sin. If God wants me not to do something and I do it, I sin. As long as I conform my will to the will of God, I walk in righteousness.

Bingo. If you have not heard it said, sin is an old archery term. It literally means: "missing the mark". God has a perfect, holy and just standard. When we miss the 'center', we sin.

Now, the question in regards to liberty should be more easily answered.

Namely, are we to help others hit the mark? or asked another way: If we see someone 'missing the mark", should we not help them?