Thank you CB, it's always nice to have some good honest intellectual discourse with someone, especially with people who you don't nessicarily share the same views, or have as good an understanding on those views.
No problem, I enjoy having honest conversations with other people, even if we do disagree. I appreciate your sincerity and openness to discuss this. I take it as a privilage to reply. Thanks.
This makes sense to me as an all encompassing doctrine for a Christian, but similarly, for any mono-theistic religion.
And there is the crux, at least for me. Everyones god is the right god, and everyone elses god is a false prophet or idol. So how is an agnostic to choose? Probably by not choosing at all, perhaps.
When it comes down to selecting between religions it really becomes highly subjective if you look at the value systems of each and say "Well now, which one should I pick?". I think the uniqueness and appeal of Christianity lies in the person of Jesus, being that he was a real person and that unlike other religions Jesus is presented as
the way to salvation, thus Jesus becomes central. Other religions may have their own prophets or honored and revered teachers but none of them claimed that person to be
the way and
the revelation of God to man.
The only thing I could suggest to you at this point is that you look at
how the Christian life is to be lived (and I hope that any Christians you know are a good representation of that) and notice the love, patience, joy, and hope in each one of them. The Bible tells us Christians that we must be a
light to the world so that our actions shine louder than just mere words. Our actions should draw people outside closer to make them wonder and inquire "what is it that is different about you?" "Why do you act differently than most people?" The original disciples (the Apostles) of Jesus did something that I think speaks to the sincerity of their belief in what they had seen Jesus do while here on earth, which is recorded in Acts, and I think it is simply amazing because that type of behavior makes people look at you and say "What's gotten into them? Why would they be so joyful in such a horrible situation?" or "How can they still act that way in light of what they have been through?". I am refering to the following account in the book of Acts. Please take note to what was going on:
Acts Chapter 4
1The priests and the captain of the temple guard and the Sadducees came up to Peter and John while they were speaking to the people. 2They were greatly disturbed because the apostles were teaching the people and proclaiming in Jesus the resurrection of the dead. 3They seized Peter and John, and because it was evening, they put them in jail until the next day.
....
5The next day the rulers, elders and teachers of the law met in Jerusalem. 6Annas the high priest was there, and so were Caiaphas, John, Alexander and the other men of the high priest's family. 7They had Peter and John brought before them and began to question them: "By what power or what name did you do this?"
Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them: "Rulers and elders of the people! 9If we are being called to account today for an act of kindness shown to a cripple and are asked how he was healed, 10then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. 11He is
" 'the stone you builders rejected,
which has become the capstone.' 12Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."
13When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus. 14But since they could see the man who had been healed standing there with them, there was nothing they could say. 15So they ordered them to withdraw from the Sanhedrin and then conferred together. 16"What are we going to do with these men?" they asked. "Everybody living in Jerusalem knows they have done an outstanding miracle, and we cannot deny it. 17But to stop this thing from spreading any further among the people, we must warn these men to speak no longer to anyone in this name."
18Then they called them in again and commanded them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus. 19But Peter and John replied, "Judge for yourselves whether it is right in God's sight to obey you rather than God. 20For we cannot help speaking about what we have seen and heard."
Chapter 5
18They [again] arrested the apostles and put them in the public jail.
....
Having brought the apostles, they made them appear before the Sanhedrin to be questioned by the high priest. 28"We gave you strict orders not to teach in this name," he said. "Yet you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and are determined to make us guilty of this man's blood."
29Peter and the other apostles replied: "We must obey God rather than men! 30The God of our fathers raised Jesus from the deadâ€â€whom you had killed by hanging him on a tree. 31God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might give repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel. 32We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."
33When they heard this, they were furious and wanted to put them to death. 34But a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law, who was honored by all the people, stood up in the Sanhedrin and ordered that the men be put outside for a little while.
...
His speech persuaded them. They called the apostles in and had them flogged. Then they ordered them not to speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go.
41The apostles left the Sanhedrin, rejoicing because they had been counted worthy of suffering disgrace for the Name [of Jesus]. 42Day after day, in the temple courts and from house to house, they never stopped teaching and proclaiming the good news that Jesus is the Christ.
Sorry to give you such a long quote but I wanted to give you the background & context for the verse I highlighted in red. They had been ordered not to speak about Jesus again but they said that they could not help but speak of what they had
seen and
witnessed to be true, and this led them to the really amazing part:
they were whipped 39 times and yet went away rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer for the truth (knowing that God would reward them for their faithfulness). This is truely one of those awe inspiring moments when you ask, "What is different about that person?" and the Apostles were 100% convicted about what they preached because they witnessed and walked with Jesus personally and saw that what he said was true.
This I think is the initial appeal for people to Christianity to see what it is all about and how people's lives are being radically changed. Once they come closer to investigate, if they have faith enough to belive in Jesus they will then experience the same life change that they see in other people. I hope this had made sense.
To which church do you refer? There are many christian churches, catholic, anglican, the various flavours of prodestantism, the fringe churches like the jehova's witness and the mormons. Or are all lumped together in the word "church"? It seems in this case you get to "pick" your family, at least of course the church you "marry". So are all christians children of god, is it subjective to which church you belong to, and who gets to make the judgement? I'm not trying to be derogetory in any way, this question is just one of the things i'm curious about.
Well, I don't say church in association with the "external church" (those who
appear to be Christians). The word translated "Church" in the original Greek is
ekklesia and litterally means "gathering" and does not refer to any particular building or denomination. It refers to the true, spirtual children and followers of God who are refered to as "brothers" and "sisters" in Christ (thus we are a family of sorts in God - the
ekklesia or gathering of the family is called the Church). It is sometimes however difficult to discern the difference between the external "Church" and the true spiritually reborn and adopted children of God. I heard a Pastor say once that he does not wish to ever baptize (a symbol of inclusion among God's people spiritually) someone who is not sincere, but no one can judge the persons heart except the person being baptised so he said on occasion he may have (against his will - since if he knew the person was insincere he would not have baptized them) baptized someone who merely paid lip service but had really no change of heart to follow after Jesus. This is why it is a little dangerous to associate the "external" Church (meaning those who appear externally to be among God's people - and some who can only be recognized as Christians by their occasional "going to Church" - as sad as that is) with the true Church (people -
ekklesia) of God.
I'm not trying to bash any certain denomination or Christian Churches in America or else where, I'm just saying that you must try to distinguish who is and who isn't truely a child of God if at all possible.
Is this then, the proper answer to the above question?
Yes, what I layed out there concerning the personal belief and following of Jesus reflects the actual condition of the person's heart and their sincerity in devotion to God. This means they truely believe in Jesus' message of salvation and walk accordingly, casting off sin and walking in holiness (purity - moral and spiritual) while demonstrating the love of Chirst to others and a personal love for God (which Jesus said were the two greatest commandments). Jesus said, "You will know them by their fruits" meaning a Christian should be identifiable by the good works they do and how they act (as the Apostles evidently did when they were whipped for preaching the truth about Jesus and then rejoiced about it).
Is this then the purpose of evangalism?
Yes, to draw people closer to Jesus and invite them to follow along with them in serving him. Many people may water down the gospel and make it seem so externally religious in its presentation, but I cannot emphasize to you enough of how personally it changes your life, casting off your sins and knowing that God
not only forgives you (some "Churches" never even move past that and make the entire Christian life about repentance from sin - to that I say:
rubbish! That is what makes so many churches today dead and no better than any other religious ritualistic belief system)
but also that he also gives you power by His Spirit, which he places in you when you are saved, to improve and cleanse yourself, give you assurance and experience of eternal life, and to excel in all things in life for God's glory. This includes God's promise that he will supply us with all we will ever need so that we can be able to
give to every good work (2 Corinthians 9:8). We don't have to worry about being hung out to dry when we give money to help others (for a good cause) and worry about if we are going to eat next week because God says in the process of loving other people (as manifested in giving and helping other people out in their rough times) that God will in turn take care of us in our time of need. The Christian experience is about living a vibrant and full life
(John 10:10) through experiencing a relationship with God and being radically changed to the point of effecting even other people's lives around you.
Thus we shouldn't give giving [money] a second thought and live life to the fullest in loving, giving, and building relationships that bring joy and point toward & bring people closer to the God who gives us the ability to love with such abundance like that. Like the Bible says, " We love him, because he first loved us"
(1 John 4:19). Love is very central in the Christian life, thus relationships become very important, both how we relate to and treat other people and where we are in our personal relationship with God: are we sinning against God or are we pleasing him with how we live our life. and God delights when we become a blessing to others and when we love God in such a way that we obey him and allow him to carry us through our trials toward our final hope that one day we will be with him in eternity.
Further to that, how does this relate to the actions of some christians in the past? I'm referring of course to the historic european christian practise of torture and killing of those who did not conform to their ideal of christianity, but of course, still loved christ, so they say. How does this relate to the love of jesus, and would these people be saved serving death and destruction in the name of a loving lord? How does this also relate to the crusades?
This is an entirely different situation. I highly emphasize the fact that the historical Catholic Church was exteremely corrupt, power hungry, and even heretical (by adding "mandatory" observation of sacraments to Christianity). I condemn all such things as the Crusades and the burning of righteous men who spoke against the Catholic Church at the stake. I bet the majority of the Catholic Church leadership was not even saved. An early Christian revolutionary (who helped spread Luther's Protestant reformation and who dared to break the Catholic Church's stupid and controlling law of not translating a Bible into any other language than Latin (so that only the clergy could read it and thus control what the people beleived) by translating the Bible for the first time publically in English) named William Tyndale even spoke against the corruption of the Catholic Church as vehemently as Martin Luther did and said in one of his works that he did not even know if the Pope was
among those who were saved.
The Catholic Church was really not a Christian institution but a religious system for peddling political power and it completely corrupted the true message and Gospel of Jesus. This is why Martin Luther's Protestant reformation was so important: to break away from the Catholic Church's power, actually be able to read the Bible for one's self personally in your own language (as opposed to having it read to you - and even then only seldomly by a Bishop and selectively to serve his purposes), and return to the true heart of Christianity by serving Jesus in the way he should be served. The entire reason America grew so much early on is because it was stocked and lived in by the Pilgrims who were Protestant Puritans escaping the persecuation and control of both the Catholic and Anglican Churches, so that they could experience religious freedom to serve God in truth. When people began actually reading the Bible for themselves for the first time a reformation broke out. Reading Paul's writings alone (which many passages were avoided by the Catholic Church to avoid a reformation - which happened anyway thanks to Luther) made one instrumental and famous early Preacher (whose name escapes me at the moment) in the reformation exclaim with great self-conviction upon reading the book of Romans (which was seldom read in the chruch), "
Either this is not the Bible or we are not Christians!" It was an amazing revelation and it was the spark and heart of the reformation when people learned what being a Christian was really about, since they had been kept in the dark by the Catholic Church throughout all the Dark (called "dark" for a reason) and Middle ages (over 1000 years). I hope this clarifies the historical situation and the personal passion that true Christians got a hold of once they realized what the Bible really said and how to serve Jesus.
I hope you do not take offence to any of my questions above, none was intended. I certainly look forward to your response, and the responses of others.
Not at all. I'm glad to discuss this. Sorry I made such a long post but I found it relevant to making the full emphasis of my point. I hope you can really grasp this, because if you do it can change your life!
God Bless,
~Joshua Nielsen
