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Christians going to war?

  • Thread starter Thread starter fResH
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fResH

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I plan on joining the Army (after high school)to become a Ranger. This will probably lead me to deployment in Iraq, in which i'll be in the war. Can a Christan go to war and kill? I am very patriotic, I believe God has blessed America with so much, it is my duty to protect those who are a threat to it. The truth behind war is to kill some to save some. Is war in this case justified?
 
fResH said:
I believe God has blessed America with so much, it is my duty to protect those who are a threat to it.

I think you've answered your own question right there.
 
The question would be is war justifable? And does protection mean using violence?

Christ taught us that we are to love our enemies - not to kill them. (Matthew 5:5; Matthew 5:7; Matthew 5:9; Matthew 5:10; Matthew 5:39-48)

However, if you look at the "Just War Theory" that Augustine outlined, No - the War on Iraq is not "justified". It violates the tenets of the Just War theory.
 
fResH said:
I believe God has blessed America with so much, it is my duty to protect those who are a threat to it.
At the risk of seeming condescending, I would suggest that our duty as Christians is to follow the way of Christ, not to "defend our country". However, these can, in some cases, turn out to be align with one another.

Now I want to be clear - I do believe in the concept of a "just war", although I hold this view with a certain degree of reluctance.

I think that "patriotism" is a dangerous thing inasmuch as it can distract us from our true calling of following Jesus' ideals, not national ideals. And they are often in conflict. We are Christians first, and Americans, Canadians, Australians, etc, a very distant second.

I am not offering an opinion that serving in the US military stands in opposition to the way of Christ, I am merely saying that we should all be careful not to tangle up nationalistic values with the values of Jesus, which transcend all borders.

And I would venture to suggest that the war in Irag is not a "just war". However, I am not sure what the best course is, given where we are now. It is possible that "finishing the job" is the path of greatest wisdom in terms of minimizing suffering and death.

War is a terrible terrible thing and should only be entered into as a last resort.

And yet, I think that soldiers who are willing to risk their very lives should be held in high honour - very high honour indeed.

Poltitical leaders (and this is not directed at George W. since I do not know the relevant facts) who knowingly lead their nation into war for less than justfiable reasons are at the other end of the spectrum of honour.
 
Hi Fresh,

I wonder if you have heard of a believer named Alvin York? He also wrestled with this issue.

A biography excerpt from this website...

http://www.medalofhonor.com/Sgt.York.htm

In the light of all this, the historian wonders if the influence of Gracie Williams might not have carried considerable weight, along with his mother's, in bringing to an end Alvin's wild oats days. A further change in his life came soon after and here, almost certainly, Gracie was very influential. On New Year's day, 1915, Alvin York professed religion and cast his lot with the church instead of the "shack." From that day until his death forty-nine years later, his faith never wavered.

The Valley of the Three Forks of the Wolf in 1917 was a dimple in the Cumberlands where "exceeding peace" abounded. But there was one small cloud on the horizon. There had been a trickle of news filtering into the valley about a big war that was going on way across the sea somewhere. The menfolk would gather at R. C. Pile's store on Saturday afternoons and "Pastor" Pile would read to them about the fighting in Europe. They gathered that a country called Germany ruled by a fellow called the Kaiser was the trouble-maker, but until early 1917 it had never occurred to any of them that this far-away conflict could ever affect them in any way. Even after the papers began to express alarm and fear that America was going to be drawn into the blood-letting, the people of the valley could not conceive of a foreign war reaching down into their peaceful valley and disturbing their way of life. If the war were here, they could understand it. Many still remembered the horrors of the Civil War. Even Alvin York knew something of war for both of his grandfathers had died horrible deaths because of it. But a war 4000 miles across a wide ocean, there was no way it could affect them. But even then it was to be only a matter of a few months before Alvin York would be writing this:

"Life's tol'ably queer. You think you've got a grip on it, then you open your hands and find out there's nothing in them. It doesn't go in straight lines like bees to their hives or quail from the covey. It sort of circles like foxes and goes back again to where it began."

So spoke Alvin York in 1917 when Uncle Sam pointed a finger at him and said, "I want you." The big red-headed, raw-boned son of the forest thought he had a grip on life. Before the arrival of a certain card on June 5, 1917, the future never looked brighter for Alvin York. For him life had always been good, even if hard at times. Now it looked better than ever. Hadn't Gracie agreed to marry him when last they met on the limestone ledge under the giant beeches? And hadn't he just been named an elder in their little Church of Christ in Christian Union? With his wild oats days behind him for good, he had learned that leading the singing in church was far better than fighting and brawling and drinking and gambling at the "shack" on the Tennessee-Kentucky line. And finally, his terribly pinched financial circumstances were beginning to show unmistakable signs of improvement. Up until now he had never been able to earn more than one dollar a day. Now he was driving steel on the new highway being built through the valley, and he was making the unbelievable sum of one dollar and sixty cents a day. Alvin York still labored under the delusion that he had a firm grip on all the good things. Even at this late date, he could not imagine opening his hands and finding them empty, all his good things taken away by a war 4000 miles from his valley across mountains and plains and an ocean.

The card that arrived on June 5, 1917 was his notice to register for the draft. Not until then would he acknowledge, even to himself, that fate had caught up with him. Describing this day when his world began to disintegrate around him, he wrote: "I kind of lived in a dream the next few days (after Gracie had promised to marry him) and then all of a sudden, out of nowhere, so it seemed to me, life sort of took me by the back of the neck and tried to lift me out of our little valley and throw me into the war over there in France. I received from the post office a little red card telling me to register for the draft."

He did.

The small cloud on the horizon of just a few months before had now spread all the way around the world, casting its shadow over the Valley of the Three Forks of the Wolf. Alvin York "opened his hands" to find there was "nothing in them."

He started keeping a diary on that fateful June 5th, the day he got his notice to register for the draft. From that day on until May 29, 1919 when he arrived back in his Valley of the Three Forks, Alvin recorded every activity he took part in. The tempo of the military machine shifted into high gear for Alvin York after June 5th. On that date he registered. On October 28th he reported for his physical examination. After that he had no doubt about going to the army. He says: "They looked at me and weighed me and I weighed 170 pounds and was 72 inches tall. So, they said I passed all right. Well, when they said that I almost knowed that I would have to go to the army." On November 14, he reported for induction, on the 15th he left Oneida for Camp Gordon, Georgia, and on the 16th he arrived in Camp Gordon.

The world has been under the impression that Alvin York was a conscientious objector who tried unsuccessfully to avoid serving in the army. Technically, this was not so, although at one point he admitted it and at another denied it categorically. Let the reader make up his own mind after reading the next few pages.

Alvin York did not want to go to war. He freely admits that and tells why. He says, "There were two reasons why I didn't want to go to war. My own experience told me it wasn't right, and the Bible was against it too.....but Uncle Sam said he wanted me, and I had been brought up to believe in my country."

If there is anything one can say about Alvin York without fear of contradiction, it is that he was patriotic. He loved his country, and what is more, he came from a long line of patriots who had fought for their country all the way from King's Mountain to New Orleans, Chapultepec and Shiloh. In addition to York's direct family ancestors who had fought for their country since the Revolution, he also felt a close kinship with such frontier greats as Andrew Jackson, Davy Crockett and Sam Houston. The influence of all these patriotic ancestors, both by blood and by culture, weighed heavily on the mind of Alvin York as the day of his induction into the army moved closer and even after he got to Camp Gordon. He describes his dilemma in these words:

"So you see my religion and my experience...told me not to go to war, and the memory of my ancestors...told me to get my gun and go fight. I didn't know what to do. I'm telling you there was a war going on inside me, and I didn't know which side to lean to. I was a heap bothered. It is a most awful thing when the wishes of your God and your country...get mixed up and go against each other. One moment I would make up my mind to follow God, and the next I would hesitate and almost make up my mind to follow Uncle Sam. Then I wouldn't know which to follow or what to do. I wanted to follow both but I couldn't. They were opposite. I wanted to be a good Christian and a good American too."

Up to this point in the sheltered life of the isolated valley in which Alvin York had lived, he had never come face to face with and had to choose between two great principles or courses of action. He had always just assumed that being a good Christian and being a good, patriotic American were one and the same thing. At least they were so closely connected that a man dedicated to one would automatically be dedicated to the other. Now he was learning it was not so in the light of what he had always been taught about Christianity and about patriotism. The complexities of theology and its application to living in a world far more complex than he had imagined, drove him to cry out, "I am a soul in doubt."

The records in the War Department in Washington will always make it appear that Alvin York was a conscientious objector. He was not. He was a "soul in doubt" as he said. He was torn between what he thought was his duty to his country and his God. When this conflict was resolved in his mind, he never again voiced objection to fighting, killing if necessary, for his country. The petitions filed asking exemption from military duty were initiated by Pastor Pile and his mother. "My little old mother and Pastor Pile wanted me to get out," he wrote in his diary.

"Pastor Pile put in a plea to the government that it was against the religion of our church to fight, and that he wanted to get me out on these grounds. And he sent his papers to the War Department, and they filled them out and sent them to me at the camp and asked me to sign them.

"They told me all I had to do was to sign them. And I refused to sign them, as I couldn't see it the way Pastor Pile did. My mother, too, put in a plea to get me out as her sole support. My father was dead and I was keeping my mother and brothers and sisters. And the papers were fixed up and sent to Camp Gordon and I was asked to sign them. I knew I had plenty of brothers back there who could look after my mother, that I was not the sole support, and I didn't feel I ought to do it. And so I never asked for exemption on any grounds at all. I never was a conscientious objector. I am not today. I didn't want to go and fight and kill. But I had to answer the call of my country and I did. I believed it was right. I have got no hatred toward the Germans and I never had."

Here we have a direct statement from Alvin York denying categorically that he ever was a conscientious objector. But we have another direct quotation from another book stating that "....so long as the records remain I will be officially known as a conscientious objector. I was. I joined the church. I had taken its creed, and I had taken it without what you might call reservations. I was not a Sunday Christian. I believed in the Bible, and I tried in my own way to live up to it."

Here we have two direct statements which appear to be flatly contradictory: "I never was a conscientious objector," and "So long as the records remain I will be officially known as a conscientious objector. I was."

How do we reconcile these statements? Or can we reconcile them? I think we can.

Those who knew Alvin York personally knew how confused he was at that time. In that confused state of mind he interpreted the term "conscientious objector" in two different ways, as it was used by the War Department and as he saw it in the light of his church creed and the Bible. By the former interpretation he was not a conscientious objector; by the latter he was. His lack of education made it impossible for him to comprehend entirely the two horns of the dilemma upon which he was impaled. In his own writing he gives us a basis for this explanation: "Only the boy who is uneducated can understand what an awful thing ignorance is . . . . I know what I want to say, but I don't always know just how to put it down on paper. I just don't know how to get it out of me and put it in words."

The conflict raged on in his mind. He was still the "soul in doubt knowing that he really wanted to follow in the footsteps of his ancestors and fight for his country, but finding no way to reconcile war and killing with his own conscience and the creed of his church.

The Lord bless you
 
fResH said:
I plan on joining the Army (after high school)to become a Ranger. This will probably lead me to deployment in Iraq, in which i'll be in the war. Can a Christan go to war and kill? I am very patriotic, I believe God has blessed America with so much, it is my duty to protect those who are a threat to it. The truth behind war is to kill some to save some. Is war in this case justified?

In the Bible, God allowed the Israelites to go to war: there were Canaanites in the land, and He allowed them to be killed as a punishment due to their idolatry and being heathen. Just to show He is no respecter of persons, He also warned Israel of exile if they disobeyed as well; they did not inherit the land because of intrinsic goodness or superiority.

Today, people often wonder why we are the world's "police force"? that was prophesied in the bible, too in Deuteronomy 33:17---- this is why despite the initial split, we historically befriended Britain and paired up with them. So this is the Lord's doing.

As for Iraq (where Assyrian once was), we can see the scripture that predicted their fate as well: Micah 5:6

I think you are making a noble choice and I salute you. It is nevertheless a serious one, just so that you know. We lost two of our young men to conflicts in Iraq here in this township, and one of them was the older brother of my son's friend.
 
Deut 33:17 is in the context of Deiut 33:13-17 - this is the blessing that Moses gave to the sons of Israel - prior to his death. This passage is specifically the blessing of Joseph. Would you mind explaining how that applies to the United States?

And if we are going to use the OT to justify war - would not the same rules of war apply from the OT?
 
aLoneVoice said:
Deut 33:17 is in the context of Deiut 33:13-17 - this is the blessing that Moses gave to the sons of Israel - prior to his death. This passage is specifically the blessing of Joseph. Would you mind explaining how that applies to the United States?

And if we are going to use the OT to justify war - would not the same rules of war apply from the OT?

I believe that the United States is one of the lost tribes of Israel, namely, the tribe of Joseph that had the birthright. I think I PM'ed you already about that.

One must ask themselves, if Israel is just the Jews, when did the Jews ever push people to the ends of the earth? Historically, they were dispersed to the ends of the earth under persecution. This passage applies to somebody who is militarily mighty.

And one cannot push that prophecy out to end-times either. In the end, all the tribes of Israel will be rejoined again (Ezek 37) and they will not be separate as Joseph was prophesied to be from his brethren.

What most Christians do not see or understand (probably by choice) is that God basically had TWO nations of people, the house of Israel and the house of Judah (the Jews). Only the Jews returned to their land, not Israel. However, in the OT, we see many prophecies to Israel (not the Jew) that almost sound "Christian". These nations of people would one day embrace Christianity. I hold orthodox Christian views except that I claim that unbeknownst to the church, they are not only the spiritual seed of Abraham, but also the physical seed. Look at the nations that embraced Christianity, namely, NW Europe, Britain and the United States and see if we did not inherit the great promises to Abraham instead of the Jew.

It's hard to wrap up what I know God's Word teaches in 25 words or less. But I can point you to an online book I uploaded to my website that explains all of it. (It's HTML files that are zipped)

http://www.geocities.com/abreone/jsjb.zip
 
I believe some can do small evil to do great good. I respect and salute you on what you're doing. Even though I don't fully agree with the war, it takes a lot of courage to do what you're doing. God bless.
 
Newkid00 said:
I believe some can do small evil to do great good. I respect and salute you on what you're doing. Even though I don't fully agree with the war, it takes a lot of courage to do what you're doing. God bless.

Perhaps this deserves a new thread, but can you explain what you mean by "I believe some can do small evil to do great good"? That does not sound bibllical at all.
 
Hey Fresh, here's another little write up covering some of the moral issues in war

"Professor Theophilus, do you think it’s wrong for a Christian to go to war?"

I noticed John’s regulation haircut and remembered a previous conversation. "Does this question have something to do with your being in the Army Reserves?"

"Yes." He paused. "See, I’m the first one in my family to go to college, and I only signed up with the Reserves for the educational benefits."

"Didn’t you ever ask yourself what you thought about war?"

"Well, no. Everybody said the Cold War was over. It never occurred to me that I might actually have to fight!"

"Now troops have been committed to Franistan, and if your Reserve unit is called . . . "

"Right. I’ll be carrying a gun. And I want to be sure I’ll be doing the right thing."

I raised an eyebrow. "The next time you commit your life to an organization, John, wouldn’t it be a good idea to decide whether you agree with its principles first?"

"Man, would it! But better late than never."

"Okay, tell me what you’ve been thinking so far."

"God commanded wars in Old Testament times, right? And it stands to reason that sometimes a government has to use force to put down what’s bad. But then God says in the Ten Commandments, ‘Thou shalt not kill.’ And in the New Testament, Jesus says ‘All they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.’ I’m confused."

I opened a Bible on my desk. "You quoted the traditional wording of the Sixth Commandment, John, but take a look at how it reads in this modern translation."

"You shall not murder," he read. "I don’t get it. Aren’t killing and murdering the same?"

"No. Murdering is deliberately taking innocent human life. It also includes taking guilty human life, if the authority isn’t yours, because punishment is the responsibility of public officials, not vigilantes."

"What about Jesus’ saying that those who take the sword shall perish with the sword? Doesn’t that mean even public officials should lay it down?"

"Some Christians have thought so. For most of the Christian era, though, most have believed that Jesus meant something else – that we should never take the law into our own hands, never try to bring about the Kingdom of God by worldly means, and never put our ultimate trust in violence. After all, Paul ought to have understood what Jesus meant, and he didn’t condemn the use of force by public officials. He said that the ruler ‘does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God’s servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.’"

"Then war and capital punishment are okay?"

"Let’s say they might be okay. Sometimes rulers do wrong, too."

"So when are they wrong and when are they right? Start with capital punishment."

"For capital punishment to be right, the guilty person would have to be convicted of a real crime in a fair trial, and the punishment would have to be fitting. Both the trial and the punishment would have to be carried out by public authority rather than private vigilantes. Even then it might be better to avoid capital punishment, if there were another way to punish the criminal and to keep him from doing further harm."

"Do you think there’s another way?"

"A big debate is going on among Christians in our country about that. I’d be glad to tell you my view, but . . . "

"Never mind, Prof," he interrupted. "I shouldn’t have asked for details about something I should discuss with you another day. Since I might have a gun in my hands soon, let’s get back to the subject of war."

"OK. Christian thinkers have been sharpening the criteria for distinguishing justified from unjustified wars for centuries."

"Do you mean criteria like ‘War may be waged only in self-defense’?"

"No, a criterion like that would make it wrong to come to the aid of your neighbor. I mean criteria like public authority, just cause and right intention."

"What do those mean?"

"The first one means that only a legitimate government may wage war. Vigilantes and terrorists can’t do it. The second one means that war may be waged only to save innocent life, to make sure people can live decently, and to protect their natural rights. The third one means your just cause has to be your actual reason for going to war."

"Is that last criterion like saying that it isn’t enough to do the right thing – that you have to do it for the right motive?"

"Exactly. The next three criteria are probability of success, comparative justice and proportionality."

"I suppose probability of success must mean that even with good reasons, it’s wrong to start a war you know you’re going to lose."

"Right."

"But I can’t guess the other two."

"Comparative justice means that the evils you’re fighting against have to be bad enough to justify killing, and proportionality means that you have to have good reason to think the war will stop more evil than it causes."

"What kinds of evils are we talking about, Professor T?"

"All kinds of evils. Not just physical evils like bodily death or suffering, but spiritual evils too."

"You mean like becoming morally corrupt or losing faith in God?"

"Right. Finally, there is the criterion of last resort."

"I can figure that one out. You shouldn’t go to war until you’ve tried everything else. Right?"

"Right."

"Is that the final criterion for when it’s OK to go to war? Because I have a question."

"Yes. Ask it."

"When you were explaining the comparative justice principle, I noticed that you didn’t say the evils you’re fighting against must be bad enough to justify murder – you said they must be bad enough to justify killing. Why?"

"That’s because murder is always wrong, even in wartime. The idea of these criteria isn’t to figure out when murder is OK, but to figure out when killing is murder and therefore wrong. Christians are not allowed to say ‘Let us do evil that good may result.’ That’s the world’s way of thinking. Our job is to do the right thing, and let God take care of the results."

"I think I see that," John said slowly. "But here’s what I don’t get. If a particular war is justified, then in that case it’s OK to kill the enemy, right? So how can an act of killing in wartime ever be murder?"

"Easy. For example, it’s one thing to shoot soldiers, but it’s another thing to blow up schoolbuses. Do you understand?"

"Oh, yes, I understand that."

"The underlying principle is called discrimination: It says that directly intended attacks on noncombatants and nonmilitary targets are always wrong. Of course bombs don’t always go where you want them to, but even accidental harm to noncombatants and nonmilitary targets should be avoided."

"Isn’t this principle different from the others you mentioned, Professor Theophilus? All of the other seven were about when it’s right to go to war, but this one is about how to fight when you do go to war."

"You’re right. And there are at least two more limits on the right way to fight. You see, two of the principles we’ve already discussed have a double role."

"What do you mean?"

"Remember the proportionality principle?"

"Yes, of course."

"Applied to the question of whether to fight, you recall, it says you can’t begin a war which would bring about more evil than it stopped – but applied to the question of how to fight, it says you can’t use a tactic which would bring about more evil than it stopped."

"Oh, I see that. What’s the other principle that has a double role?"

"Right intention. Remember that one?"

"Yes. It says the just cause must be your actual reason for going to war. It’s like saying that you should only go to war to bring about a just peace. Right?"

"I couldn’t have put it better. Now apply that principle to the question of how to fight."

"I guess you shouldn’t use any tactic that would prevent a just peace."

"Exactly. So even though you’re trying to win, you shouldn’t commit any act or make any demand which would make it more difficult for your enemies to reconcile with you some day."

"Man! My head is spinning. You don’t make these decisions easy, do you?"

"They’re not easy, but that’s not my doing. War isn’t the solution to sin, you know. Jesus Christ is the solution to sin. Fighting injustice is necessary, but carries its own temptations to do wrong."

"I’ll go think about Franistan," said John. He smiled wryly, then offered me a little salute. I hesitated, smiled back, then made the sign of the Cross.

by J. Budziszewski
 
fResH said:
I plan on joining the Army (after high school)to become a Ranger. This will probably lead me to deployment in Iraq, in which i'll be in the war. Can a Christan go to war and kill? I am very patriotic, I believe God has blessed America with so much, it is my duty to protect those who are a threat to it. The truth behind war is to kill some to save some. Is war in this case justified?
In the OT the Hebrew word (Milhamah) translated "War" occurs more than 300 times. Milhamah is only one of several Hebrew words associated with the various facets of War. More than 300 times in the OT, God is called "The Lord of Hosts" (Armies). The song of victory sung by Moses and the children of Israel after they escaped Pharaoh (Ex.15:3-4) was, "The Lord is a man of war; The Lord is his name. Pharaoh's chariots and his army he has cast into the sea." Many of Gods great leaders were military men (Saul, David, Moses, Gideon, Joshua, and others) Abraham went to war and rescued Lot. The Bible says, "He armed his trained servants.....and attacked them" (Gen.14:14-15). The Lord chose Joshua to be Moses' successor To lead the Israelites into the Land of Canaan. In order to do this, Joshua was commanded to exterminate all of the inhabitants of Canaan and was promised God's help (Deut.7:17-24). Then God helped Joshua in the battle of Jericho (Josh.6:1-27). The Lord uses Government officials as vehicles to convey judgement upon nations that need it. "He is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices Evil" (Rom.13:4) The OT and the NT are full of examples of human governments being ordained by God (Dan.2:37-38; John 19:10-11). In summary, a nation must realize that while building a strong military defense, their trust must Ultimately be in God. The danger in total faith in a military defense apart from God is as great as the danger of a second-rate military defense. Americans and Christians must work hard for a strong country, capable of defending itself against military aggression. At the same time we must pray for peace that can be won without compromising the principles upon which America was founded- Principles for which our fore-fathers fought. But lastly we must realize that the only real and lasting peace will come when the PRINCE OF PEACE returns to set up his millennial kingdom! :D
 
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