Contact With The Creator?

[Relic]

.

In the article below, it is interesting how many times God spoke to people as shown in the references from the Old Testament. But now, in these modern times, these days..... All kinds of people claim that God has spoken to them.

Should we take Dr. Akiva Gamliel Belk advice and take heed to the precautions he speaks of here?

Or, do you agree with many of the "Christian" pastors of these days, that say God has spoken to them and it happens these days more than in the ancient days, ever since the veil has been torn from the ground up through Christ Jesus being on the cross . (of which the non-mesianic jews don't agree )

What is the Christian view?

=================================


Contact With The Creator ©
By Dr. Akiva Gamliel Belk

Parshas Vayeitzei
Bereishis 28:10 - 32:3

This study is offered in the loving memory of Mrs. Ida Simmons Belk and Mr. Will Belk, may they rest in peace.

Adam’s contact with G-d was just five recorded times within Ha Torah over 930 years. About once every 186 years or just five times on the sixth day and then never again...
Bereishis 1:28-30
Bereishis 2:15-17
Bereishis 2:20
Bereishis 2:21,22
Bereishis 3:9-24

Chava, Adam’s wife, had only one contact with G-d in her entire life...
Bereishis 3:13-16

Kayin, the brother of Hevel and son of Adam and Chava, had just two contacts with
G-d during the seven generations {spanning hundreds of years} of his life...
Bereishis 4:6,7
Bereishis 4:9-16

Hevel who was murdered by Kayin had no recorded contact with G-d...
Seth, the third recorded son of Adam and Chava, had no recorded contact with G-d...
Enoch walked with G-d for 300 years but no direct contact is indicated...

From Creation forward to the time of the Flood, these are the only people Ha Torah records spoke with G-d during 1,656 years. So Ha Torah records that just three people - Adam, Chava and Kayin - had contact with G-d during the period from Adam up to Noach. Contact with G-d was not an everyday event. In other words, there are eight recorded contacts with G-d during 1,656 years which would average one recorded contact for every 207 years or basically eight recorded contacts from Creation to Kayin’s murder of Hevel, then no recorded contacts for over 1,600 years.

At the time of the Flood, the earth’s population was millions, maybe even billions. Sefer Ha Yasher reports that over 700,000 people gathered around the Ark after the door was shut and the flood began.

Noach had contact with G-d
Bereishis 6:13-21
Bereishis 7:1-4
Bereishis 7:16
Bereishis 8:15
Bereishis 9:1-17

Contact at Babel and confusion of languages
Bereishis 11:7-9

Abraham had contact with G-d
Bereishis 12:1-3
Bereishis 12:7,8
Bereishis 12:17
Bereishis 12:14-17
Bereishis 15:1-20
Bereishis 17:1-22
Bereishis 18:1-33
Bereishis 21:8
Bereishis 22:1,2
Bereishis 22:11-14
Bereishis 2:15-18

Sarah
Bereishis 18:15

Yitzchok
Bereishis 22
Bereishis 26:2-5

Rivkah
Bereishis 25:23

Yaakov
Bereishis 28:12-15

Hagar
Bereishis 16:7
Bereishis 21:17-21

Yishmael
Bereishis 21:17-21

Lot
Bereishis 19:1-22

Residents of Sodom / Gomorrah
Bereishis 19:1-29

Abimelech
Bereishis 20:3-8

From Creation to the evening that Yaakov placed his head upon the stone {which represents a span of 2,185 years}, G-d spoke through dreams, visions, messengers {angels} and special events like the Flood, Babel and the destruction of Sedom / Amorrah approximately 35 separate times... This is not to say that G-d did not talk to other people or that every contact is recorded.

The fact is, according to Ha Torah, G-d spoke to just thirteen people over a period of thousands of years. G-d passed judgment on mankind three times. Each time His destructive power was witnessed by millions: at the Flood, at Babel and at the destruction of Sedom / Amorrah, G-d spoke to just thirteen people over a period of thousands of years.

Now we read that “Hashem said to Yaakov...†Yaakov is the 13th person that Ha Torah records as being spoken to by the Creator. This is the 36th time in Ha Torah where we observe Hashem having communication with a human or humans. The last time we read of Hashem having communication with a human was 20 years earlier. This time was also with Yaakov. Now after Yaakov’s working 20 years... slaving for Lavan, Hashem speaks to Yaakov instructing him to return to his father’s house. Hashem speaks to Yaakov this second time in year 2235 from Creation.

Classmates, there is a serious point to this discussion. Be careful around individuals that claim G-d speaks to them. While it is true that we experience revelation, revelation is different than hearing the voice of G-d or experiencing a vision from G-d. Revelation is like entering a dark room where the light bulb is not working. One cannot see as well in the room because it is dark. Yet when the broken bulb is replaced and the light is turned on one can see much better. The point is that one does not see well in the dark. Turning a light switch on reveals more in the room than with the swtich off. We may apply this example to one who studies Ha Torah. As one studies Ha Torah they should receive light. This enlightenment is revelation. Many individuals receive revelation. Revelation is there waiting to be discovered. This is not the same as a verbal conversation with the Creator of the universe.

Do you actually think the Creator would actually speak to an individual that goes about stating, “the Creator has spoken to me"? If you look carefully at the 36 instances above, one fact that is clearly evident is modesty. The individuals that the Creator spoke with for the most part did NOT broadcast the conversation. They remained quiet! They were modest. Please remember Sefer Bereishis was revealed to the prophet Moshe. Then Moshe scribed what the Creator revealed to him.

Blessings and peace,

Dr. Akiva Gamliel Belk

Written in 5760
Updated in 5764

http://www.jewishpath.org/a_parsha/bere ... eator.html
================================


.

 

[Pastor Eric]

Shalom Relic,

First let me state that I am not a MESSIANIC Jew but rather a Completed Jew. There is a difference but that is for another day.

Second, Dr. Akiva Gamliel Belk as done his research very well but the whole is contained in his conclusion;

Classmates, there is a serious point to this discussion. Be careful around individuals that claim G-d speaks to them. While it is true that we experience revelation, revelation is different than hearing the voice of G-d or experiencing a vision from G-d. Revelation is like entering a dark room where the light bulb is not working. One cannot see as well in the room because it is dark. Yet when the broken bulb is replaced and the light is turned on one can see much better. The point is that one does not see well in the dark. Turning a light switch on reveals more in the room than with the swtich off. We may apply this example to one who studies Ha Torah. As one studies Ha Torah they should receive light. This enlightenment is revelation. Many individuals receive revelation. Revelation is there waiting to be discovered. This is not the same as a verbal conversation with the Creator of the universe.

Do you actually think the Creator would actually speak to an individual that goes about stating, “the Creator has spoken to me"? If you look carefully at the 36 instances above, one fact that is clearly evident is modesty. The individuals that the Creator spoke with for the most part did NOT broadcast the conversation. They remained quiet! They were modest. Please remember Sefer Bereishis was revealed to the prophet Moshe. Then Moshe scribed what the Creator revealed to him.

The point about humility is very true! He may be carrying it too far but we will never know. We don't have all the information to make such an assessment. They didn't have TV or radio nor were books made as easily as they are today. We simply don't know enough about them to compare them (apples) with today Pastors (oranges).

If we look at someone a bit more modern we might be able to make a better assumption but it will still only be an assumption!
Jhn 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am [he], and [that] I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
Is it safe to assume that Y'SHUA spoke to The FATHER nearly everyday and possibly even several times a day? Did HE publish this verbally?

The point I am trying to make is that I believe it is possible for someone to have daily contact with YHVH. As you pointed out to me in your initial contact the Jews do not accept the fact that the Temple veil was rent in two at the death of Y'SHUA. They, like the Catholics believe you do not come to The FATHER but by the means of the Priest. As a Completed Jew I do not accept that! I come to The FATHER daily and I generally know that HE is responding by means of what comes up within me through the SPIRIT. Often this is simply stated by some that "YHVH told them".

Before I go to far or to something else let me give an example. If I gave you a note that said to do something. For the most part could you say that I told you to do it? For the most part yes, you could. That is similar.

Jonah did not publisize the fact that he had talked with YHVH because he was trying to run from YHVH and hide the fact. When asked why he did this thing he told them.
Jon 1:10 For the men knew that he fled from the presence of the LORD, because he had told them.
Thus to claim that those who YHVH had contact with directly were all so humble is a bit of a reach. We simply don't have the information needed to make such claims.

Really there is a much better standard to observe and it is one that Y'SHUA provided.
Jhn 5:36 But I have greater witness than [that] of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
What are the works that are following the words? Are they really bringing glory to YHVH or are they building some man's personal kingdom?
I will also concede that humility generally does come with works that are truly bringing glory to YHVH but that is based on personal experiences in ministry. It has also been my experience that some who are extremely humble are also excellent con artist.

The best measure we have is found in scripture!
2Ch 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
as well as;
Jam 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Jam 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse [your] hands, [ye] sinners; and purify [your] hearts, [ye] double minded.

On the surface Dr. Akiva Gamliel Belk appears to have an excellent argument. In reallity it looks more like he is simply trying to teach his doctrine and to lead his students away from getting intimate with YHVH! I think I would stray away from Dr. Akiva Gamliel Belk!

 

[Relic]

.

Thank you for your long reply Pastor Eric.

I will have to print this out and read it later tonight.

Oh, and yes. I would be very interested and appreciate very much if you would create a new thread on the Topic of the Difference between a Messianic Jew and a Completed Jew. I had no idea of the term "Completed" Jew.

Thanks so much

.

 

[Dave...]

I started out in a Pentecostal church. If I had a dollar for every time I heard the phrase "the Lord told me" I would have more money than Fort Knox. The sad part is that the people who say these things, say them as a a result of getting caught up in competitions to prove who is more holy, which is a result of not being fed the Word. On the other end is usually new Christians who believe these lies and their lives are destroyed because of it for one reason or another. The Lord told me to tell you to marry her....etc.. Anybody who has spent time in a church like this knows exactly what i'm talking about. People should also keep in mind that if one prophecy that you make in the name of our Lord does not come to pass, then you have the reward of knowing you are a Biblically defined as a false prophet.

Jeremiah 23:9-40

In Christ.

 

[Pastor Eric]

Shalom,

Dave you opened up a can of worms that should never but is all too often opened when you stated;

People should also keep in mind that if one prophecy that you make in the name of our Lord does not come to pass, then you have the reward of knowing you are a Biblically defined as a false prophet.

Unless the person puts a specific date on their prophecy who says that it has to come to pass while you are still around to be the judge and executioner.
NOTE: I use the term "you" not to point a finger at you specifically but at whomever "assumes" they are to be the judge.

Y'SHUA said HE would return. HE didn't before the Apostles died. Thus they could point a finger and say that HE lied. We see HIS words differently than did many who lived back then but I hope you can see my point. One may make a prophecy that does not come to pass in your lifetime thus do you have the right to stand in judgement of them? On the other hand I do know of the churches that you are speaking of where every time someone burbs somebody else thinks they have the interpretation of that word from "their lord".

Errors happen to both extremes, as well as by those who place themselves in judgement.
Jam 1:19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:

 

[Pastor Eric]

Shalom,

Relic;
MESSIANIC Jews are found Biblically in Act 15:1. The leadership "almost always" has a burning need to bring Gentiles into Judaism. That is to say that the Gentile must adhere to some form of Judaism such as keeping the Shabbat or the feast and/or HOLY days. As a MESSIANIC Jew you are still bound to some form of law.

A Completed Jew is found in Act 15:7-11. As a Completed Jew I will gladly inform others of the feast and show you Y'SHUA within them but I will not "require" adherence to them. I will not bind you with the Law not even the tithe which most CHRISTians are bound by when it was part of the Law in Lev. 27:30 and in CHRIST is all the law fulfilled (Rom 10:4;Gal 2:16; Gal 2:21; Gal 3:13).