Convert me.

[Ghost147]

Before you begin reading this, please keep in mind that i am not trying to insult anyone's beliefs. However, i will continue to vigorously do my best to proof your side to be somehow falsified from reality.

The reason I am creating this thread is not to start up a fight, but merely to find my way through the tunnel towards the light. which is where your help comes in. I have never met anyone with a least biased opinion or more open mind to anything than myself (sorry if that seemed arrogant saying that)

I, Personally, have been an atheist all my life. Even with the odds stacked against me while having a "hardcore" Jewish side (fathers side) along with a "hardcore" Christian side (mothers side). Both of which tried to lead me and my sisters towards their views of gods doings. So, being the questioner that i am, i always seeked answers rather than stating that if the majority of people couldn't explain it, it must be gods work.

I have talked with (literally) hundreds of religious Christians to try and decipher what is reality and fact. Unfortunately, i have stumped ever one of them, put them through submission, and even lead them out of their religion, which is not my intent. As I stated before, I wish to be converted. Why? because it does seem nice to go to somewhere once you die, however i don't agree with a lot of the reasoning behind why people believe this.

For example, it seems that just because people tell others that you will go through pain and suffering for infinity once you die if you are not a good person, is simply a horrible reason why you should be a good person. If you be good because you fear being spanked doesn't mean your a good person.

So far i do not believe that god can be proven, and many people (including theists) will agree with me. which doesn't make much sense to me. Why would someone believe in something if it cannot be proven? (other than through fear or force). Every bit of "evidence" towards gods existence is all speculation from what i can see, there for, it doesn't seem logical that anyone would believe in it.

Creationism is the worst for the evidence bit, as so much points otherwise with backed up information, textbooks of tests and retests and lab notes and so on. so many times i have heard "its in the bible" as an excuse for evidence of existence, yet aren't text books in principle the same thing (in the account that it is a compilation of information gathered over time by numerous individuals coming up with the same story)?

At the moment, there is not exact way that both science and religion can initially prove the beginning of the universe. both have their theories. however, they are still theories both logical to the proposing side.

so many things are unanswered, and so many things have been dis-proven. So, i ask of you, please, try to convert me to Christianity. But! Expect a response to your statements that may very well lead to the changing of someones life.

thanks for reading.

 

[keekl]

Hi Ghost,
It sounds like you are in the midst of a journey I've myself trod. Much of what you've said I've said myself, and there is little if anything I can add for you at this point. The Christian faith isn't about creedal adherence, though many would make it so. And much of what we see as Christianity is simply religious junk. Arguing doctrines and creeds is fine sport though tends to do little to demonstrate faith~generally just shows verbal sparring skills...

Something I'd recommend is this book, "Irresistible Revolution" by Shane Claiborne, and their site http://www.thesimpleway.org/index2.html, to see a different face of Christianity than you may be familiar with...

Fare well on your journey!!

Jim

 

[handy]

Good response, Jim. It's quite true that arguing doctrine and creeds is fine sport, but does little to demonstrate faith. I suppose it's possible to come to faith in God by arguing, or at least attempting to explain away, all doctrinal difficulties and differences, but it's highly unlikely.

Christ explained faith in terms of a new birth. His example (naturally) is the best. One is born first, then one gains knowledge and understanding. Trying to settle what is truth by talking to hundreds of Christians before one is born of the Spirit, is like trying to make a fetus pass a test on biology before it can come out of the womb and the only way the poor little dude can study is by attending a hotly contested seminar on evolution versus creationism.

You've come here with the challenge for us to 'convert you'. However, it's a challenge that (hopefully) no one will take up. (I say hopefully, because there are all kinds of folks here, some who might not be far enough along their walk to understand the impossibility of your challenge.) It is impossible for any one of us to convert you. That is something that will be solely between you and God.

If you truly desire to become born again, then you must seek first His kingdom and His righteousness. He does reward those who ask, seek and knock, He truly does. However, you might find that your questions and seekings will be answered faster, if you don't go with the attitude that He OWES you all the answers to all your questions before you will deign to follow Him. He doesn't OWE you anything. He paid for you in full on the cross. If anything, you owe Him a debt that you will never, ever be able to repay.

Now, this is my first response to your challenge: Prayerfully consider all that Christ has done for you. Not so much why did He do it, but just what He did. He, who was greater than any and all the angels, humbled Himself to come here and die for you. He humbled Himself. Can you humble yourself enough to recognize your debt to Him? And, can you find joy and peace in the fact that He isn't asking you to repay it?

 

[Firestorm]

I have personally found that topics like creationism and the like only serve as a distraction from the real pressing issues.

The real question here is, why do Christians love you regardless of your beliefs or problems? Jesus Christ. Is that same type of love available to you? Surely. Do you want to love and be loved by Jesus? I don't know. I have a feeling that if you could witness the love of Christ in action, you wouldn't need much convincing.

In short, God doesn't require you to take the Bible literally or to believe He created the Earth in 7 days or that it's only 6000 years old. If He did, I wouldn't make it.

What He does require is a heart of learning, with a mindset of love. You must reconcile that He is your creator and that because of your past, present and future misdeeds, He made a sacrifice for you. The Ultimate Act of Love, if you will.

 

[Joshua]

Convert me.

Thou art converted! :wink: :D

Just kidding. I agree with everyone else, it's not something someone else can do to you. But I do look forward to talking and sharing with you.

God Bless,

Joshua

 

[Vic C.]

I agree also. We as Christians, can convert no one. We are neither responsible for our salvation nor the salvation of others. We are, however, responsible for how we act and treat one another once saved. We make for very bad witnesses we we act unkindly or treat others (especially other believers) as though they are beneath us. Anyway...

For example, it seems that just because people tell others that you will go through pain and suffering for infinity once you die if you are not a good person, is simply a horrible reason why you should be a good person. If you be good because you fear being spanked doesn't mean your a good person.

This may be misinformation or a misconception. Being good or not good is not the basis of whether or not one achieves immortality in the afterlife. Our Creator scars no one into believing. Man does that. God woos people.

So far i do not believe that god can be proven, and many people (including theists) will agree with me. which doesn't make much sense to me. Why would someone believe in something if it cannot be proven? (other than through fear or force). Every bit of "evidence" towards gods existence is all speculation from what i can see, there for, it doesn't seem logical that anyone would believe in it.

I agree too. Imaging that! LOL I see the other side of the equation though... No one can prove God doesn't exist.

 

[Ghost147]

all fair answers so far. I guess i could rephrase my request by asking why you believe in god?

now, a few of you have also stated a few things that (from my understanding) contradicts your belief. or at least that of the raising up to heaven bit.

Keekl: this is a response to your "Arguing doctrines and creeds is fine sport though tends to do little to demonstrate faith" bit. please take this response as a form of confusion rather than trying putting you down. wouldn't having faith in those doctrines and such be the reason for your belief in a god? if so, then if a person would have physical evidence of even one portion of those doctrines to be incorrect, then wouldn't that flaw the system completely? if you were notified of this deceiving portion, then wouldn't that mean that your faith were to disperse because you have faith that those words are from the word of god? once again, take this as confusion please.

Handy: you say that it is impossible for a christian to convert a non-christian. but, lets say we have a family and place them in an isolated environment for their whole life. this family knows nothing of Christianity. now, lets take a christian family, they have a child, and the isolated family adopts that child. that child does not have the entire beliefs of Christianity embedded in them. they do not know of hell or heaven, they do not know of sins. If we never had an adoption, the priest, the christian family, and the christian society in total, would influence that child in their beliefs. If that is true, then wouldn't that, even though a long process, be converting a person?

To your first response. from what i can tell (please correct me if i am mistaken, and if you are curious, i can give you many examples of my next statement) all things written about Jesus are from people who did not actually witness him. They seem to all be from hearsay (as in, "someone" told "someone" which then wrote about what he was told). Not only that, but many a time does someone talk about Jesus' thoughts, or even when he is all alone. yet someone else is writing about that (and in an era where Jesus was not alive). From this, i am having a hard time seeing the debt that i owe this person of possible non-existence. I'm sorry if this offends anyone, but once again, i can show you my sources if you'd wish. For these reasons I am asking the believers already to please justify these statements, thus allowing me to believe.

and finally; I am not 100% sure of this as i have not read it, but heard of this somewhere. But does it not say not to question god? As ive stated, i do not know where i heard this from, but if true, it would be very contradictory towards your statements.

Firestorm: You say that (in general) christians love me/people regardless of my/their beliefs or problems. I may be confusing this with respect, if this were true, then wouldn't sending missionaries to foreign countries to save them from their wrongful beliefs be in fact wrongful? Im not quite sure how i would go by witnessing the love of Christ. can you please explain?

Vic C: No one can prove God doesn't exist. I agree, sorry, i forgot to state that in my original post. But, if that is so, then why believe in the first please?

Thanks for all the quick responses. and once again, please refer to my statements as confusion and questioning, not an attack.

 

[LostSoul]

) all things written about Jesus are from people who did not actually witness him. They seem to all be from hearsay (as in, "someone" told "someone" which then wrote about what he was told). Not only that, but many a time does someone talk about Jesus' thoughts, or even when he is all alone. yet someone else is writing about that (and in an era where Jesus was not alive).

Actually some of the gospels which are solely based on the life of Jesus were in fact, written by his followers.

For example, the book of Matthew. The author was the tax collector of which Jesus called to be one of His twelve disciples. Who was also known as Levi, basically if my understanding is correct, the Jewish name for Matthew.

In addition, the book of John. The author is known solely as "the disciple whom Jesus loved." He was a Palestinian Jew who was an eyewitness of the events of Christ's life.

Should you perhaps want more detail Ghost, I can also try to revisit some of my religious college studies on this particular matter as well to give you more insight. So that way not only will you be learning from Biblical text, but also from an 'accredited' author as well. Though to me...the bible should be enough.

I also would like to share with you a bit of history I have learned in terms of NT (New Testament and possibly Old Testament times as well) was that when it came to story telling, it is not at all like it was today. When it came to speaking of actual people and places the Jewish people at least were rather serious. So in other words, they spoke only what was true and had been spoken exactly from a witness. More or less, you could not get away with playing telephone back then without having to fear being stoned to death or the like. Should my understanding also be right in terms of this. Which I can also read up some more on and share with you too.

Nonetheless, to each their own.

May God Bless You

Danielle

 

[SecretRiches]

No one can prove God doesn't exist. I agree, sorry, i forgot to state that in my original post. But, if that is so, then why believe in the first please?

Hi Ghost.
You're questions are very logical and rational. I understand the "need" to have "proof" of this God we talk about.
Believe me, I have had the same struggle and for the same reasons.

I guess, I look at it like this:

If I am wrong and God doesn't exist, then there is nothing after life. I lose nothing from believing...
I will simply transfer my energy to another form (as matter cannot be created nor destroyed) and I will never know any different. I will not exist after life, and so I will never be able to say, "oh this didn't work."

BUT if I am right, and there is a God, then there is a higher power that exists...
so I lose nothing in believing once again..
Because I will stand before God and I know that I will be accepted into heaven. And all I have believed and worked towards will mean something, as I'll be around to realize it.

For someone who does not believe, they lose nothing if there is actually no God.
But...if there is a God and they do not believe, then there is much to lose.

So I guess in response to your question of why do I believe in God, I would respond by saying...
"why not?"

Another way I look at fact and proof, as a person who has studied science in the past and present, is...
Science is contantly evolving. What once was believed 100 years ago, is NO longer what we believe today. As we become more aware, adapt new techniques, and prove different theories, all this changes the face of science. So what we believe right now to be "true" based on "evidence" could be different 25 years from now. Which means what we believe today could be total nonsense. Personally, I do not find this very reliable. It means I have to continually change my beliefs and thinking. As much as I LOVE science and believe in much of what it stands for...it cannot be my core belief. Because what we 'think" is proven and real and solid today, despite how right we think we are, may infact be disproven tomorrow.

The bible has not evolved. God has not evolved. Many arguments between science and theology regarding if there is a God verses if there isn't one...is a scientific difference.

This doesn't mean I rule out science. God created science. Everything I see is created by God...this world is just far too complex to leave all explaination up to science. Man has just simply molded science into something useful to man.

I think it is interesting that despite your upbringing, you still search. You are still curious.
It's a part of you that you may not want to acknowledge...but it is there, and it is there for a reason.

The truth is, there is no "proof" without believing first.
Because how can there be "faith" if it's just shown to us? It's easy to believe in something that's right before you and proven time and time again with a visual or with experiemental specificity and sensitivity. There is no faith in that. If I see a car, I do not say, "I have faith to see that car"...it's just there. There is nothing more to it.

What role does faith play? It is much the same as a question of how can a fire burn without a log of wood (or source of gas etc etc)?
You want the proof, the fire, the visual, the inevitable reason to say OK for sure this is real.
But you want the fire without placing the wood for it to burn...the wood representing faith.
God asks us to believe. And from believing, then we recieve...then we see. The fire does not come before the log of wood. The wood must be there first, and then the fire will be able to burn. My doubt about God can stop me from recieving, just as much as you can physically doubt a fire so that it is no longer visible.

As it has been said already, but I will say it again: Nobody here can convert you. This is between you and God. We cannot tell you these things because each one of us has had a personal experience, with each experience being very different from the others.

So my advice is to ask...regardless of everything you know, everything that seems logical...Regardless of what you read here or anywhere else...
Find a private place, take a chance, and just ask God. He is the one you are truly wondering about. So your questions would be best answered by Him.

I wish you all the best. God bless you.

 

[handy]

Ghost,

There are two ways to approach faith. One is as an intellectual challenge. Ask a lot of questions, see what answers pan out. The other is as a supernatural journey. By 'supernatural' I mean as a journey to reach out to God Himself.

I responded to your first post via the second approach. I did so because, as all who have responded to you have agreed, it's the only way to be converted. Conversion is the work of the Holy Spirit. It is only via a supernatural encounter with Him that one becomes born again.

The first approach might cause one to make an intellectual decision as to which faith is better for one's walk in life, but it won't necessarily result in conversion. Let me give two examples:

There is a man by the name of Josh McDowell. He was an agnostic who decided to intellectually challenge the Christian faith, and found that there was overwhelming evidence to support Christianity's claims of faith, God and Jesus Christ. He was converted, not by his intellectual knowledge, but by the Holy Spirit. However, it was via the intellectual knowledge that the Holy Spirit worked in his heart. In his case, the intellectual knowledge led to faith.

But, then again, I knew a man, pastor of church where I worked. He was a seminary graduate, and had vast intellectual knowledge of Christianity, the Bible and faith. And, when he was about 40 years old, after having grew up in church and gained all this head knowledge, he realized that he wasn't saved. He wasn't born again. He had tons of intelligence, but had never had that supernatural encounter with the Holy Spirit by which we are all converted. In his case, all his intellectual knowledge gained him nothing.

There are tons of evidence to support the veracity of the Scriptures. There are tons of scholars that will affirm that the Bible is true, and the Gospels, with the exception of Luke, were Jesus' disciples and Luke traveled with Paul on several occaisons. Then, there are tons of scholars who will say "Phooey" to all that and deny the faith. It's six of one and half a dozen of the other as to whom you choose to believe. In order to be converted, again you'll need that supernatural encounter with the Holy Spirit. When that happens, He promises to reveal to you the mysteries of the Scriptures, and you'll come to realize that, whomever they are written by, they are indeed fully inspired by the Holy Spirit.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that it's wrong to ask God questions. Jesus Himself said, "Ask and it shall be given to you, seek and you shall find, knock and the door shall be opened. For every one who asks received, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it shall be opened." (Matthew 7:7-8)

Whether you want to approach faith from the intellectual or the supernatural, I do know that if you are sincerely asking, seeking and knocking, you are on the right track. The key is the sincerity of your approach to God. He knows your heart and mind. If you are truly seeking Him, (as opposed to just trying to play "gotcha" with people's faith) He will draw you near.

 

[DRPreacher]

Hi Ghost,
Love you man more than you can know. How since I don't personally know you can i love you. Well it's simple it is God (capitol G). I don't need to prove God is real because I simply know him. I experience my relationship with God often thruout my day and desire more of his presence. I do understand your points because I actually was far worse in my doubt and unbelief than you are (not meaning to be brass). I was a church going fakker and back slider extrodinare. I was good at playen the game and that is exactly what God and Church and religion was to me... a big game for capitol gain. It was no different to me than being a member of the country club.
Then one day the alcohol and drugs just seemed to stop working. I reached a point where I was sick before I could get high. I stopped going to church and all about a year earlier but it wouldn't have mattered I was my own enemy. On the day i am getting to telling about I was the most miserable, empty, angry, filled with hate and a rage that was dangerous to anyone in my vicinity including myself. I snapped and decided I would end it....all. I got my shotgun and loaded it. I had removed the bird shot and put BB's in it. I cocked the hammer put the barrell in my mouth and began to push at the trigger. I felt it move and i was thinking "you can do this just a little more and it over. You can really do this just a little.....
I heard a voice normal male not shouting but real just a voice like any other we hear. It said "I'll take your life." (Just so you know I had to stop here and dry my tears to continue) (This moves me to tears every time but that is because it really happened to me. It is not expected that anyone really understand.) I slowly got up and aimed the gun toward the voice and I'm telling you true I would have shot anything that moved. Nothing was there. I searched everywhere i went to the back deck and the front.... there was noone there I could see. I was so angry by the time I got back upstairs I started ranting and raving and cursing. You see I knew it was God who had spoken or an angel but I refused to even think it. I decided then that I would commit suicide by dareing God and curssing him and saying things I can't put here. Telling him i didn't want to be born i was forced into this sorry world i lived in and if he was real prove it and kill me. I cursed, I dared, screamed and yelled so bad that I thought may be I could give myself a heart attack or something. Now the first audible voice was something supernatural but what happened next still amazes me. I hear a voice inside of me clear and plain and it said "You know what to do" and I knew what was being said was for me to read the bible. Again loud and clear but inside of me it said it "You know what to do." I tried to continue cussing and saying things like "if i knew what to do I'd be doing it" and even more cussing at God. Thru my rage and my tears I looked up and directly in front of me on the front edge and corner of my TV was my old Bible from years back and I know for a fact I personally had put it in a box and stored it in a storage closet with a pad locked door. It was not there before and no one came or went in that room for sure. It was there and so i picked it up, opened it and began again to complain and cuss to God that man had wrote it and I didn't trust anything about it or anything else man had touched saying the whole of existence was corrupted by mankind. (not in these exact words but the meaning is the same)
I heard the voice inside again clearly and it was the last time that day i heard it... It said "Just read what i said then" I knew he meant to read the red or that is what I understood it to mean. I started that moment to follow a different path than I had ever followed. Broken and destroyed I gave in to God that moment. I reasoned with him too. I decided "what the ___ I don't want my life so if he wants it why not." I just gave God my life... really. I to this day do not want to live in that world anymore ever and i mean it. I also challenged God and actually said to him "OK but this had better be real and i expect this word to be true and real every bit of it. I told him i expected to see lame walk, sick healed, authority and all the things it said that i had seen so many fakkars use misquote and do in my past. I said God kill me now if it ain't real, I won't do it if it aint real.
He is real. I'm sorry but it will take more than the faith I have to not believe in God. Period.
I know him and he knows me. This all happened in the year 2000. He is real and he is working just the same as ever. The word works. It is more than you think. The word is God he is in the word he is the word. The word. OK you want to reasonably be able to figure out about God but you have to have something you can understand plainly. If you have heard of some of the science in the world you have heard that matter is neither created nor destroyed. It simply changes states of existence. since all of the universe (creation as i call it) is matter everything is constantly changing states. OK I am a computer person writing programs and repairing them and I know one thing about them. they cannot operate without a constant. Well neither can anything. No change can occur unless there is a constant. A starting point. Science realized this so they came up with the big bang theory to generate the constant they had to have otherwise the entire universe could not exist. whether anyone likes it or not that is the point of origin it is God.
Also the word says that we are created in the image of God. Again a computer has all the basic charactistics of man, optics, processing, power pack, memory storage, motherboard is like the nervous system ect. It is created by us in our image but it looks nothing like us. It imitates us though and only does what we program it to do. The word of God reads exactly like a computer program. If / then statements, variables, conditional statements and all. Our brain is the computer. the word has to be installed and installed correctly and completely to run properly. It is very much real because there are vast numbers "a great cloud" of witnesses to it. Witnesses to something in court will convict a man. The word of God works and I am the proof. right now I exist and am here typing this living proof of God and the word. If you don't think I'm a different man living a different life well there are hundreds of people who can testify, witnesses in your court room, who with their testimony alone can prove my case. I was hate and hated. now i am love and loved. I was angry and raged. now i am at total peace. I was afraid of death. Now I can face it in victory no fear at all. I was very weak. Now i have power you cannot begin to comprehind because to do so would require you to believe in God (capitol G)
I AM that I AM
(there is much more evidence)

Consider this:
1. An event / existence can be proven in any court of law without the physical presense of the thing in question. Example: murder cases where the body is not found but the event / existence of the body is proven beyond REASONABLE doubt.
2. We creatures created in Gods image imitate him proving creation simply by our constant creating. Example; the computer you are using, the car you drive, Man made diamonds, synthetics, biology experiments and everything else we do is creature imitating creator.

Hey just food for thought
Bro Doyne Ratliff