Corinthian Tongues: Public or Private?

[Dave Slayer]

[youtube:29emw1c1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rz93VYgxCqQ[/youtube:29emw1c1]

[youtube:29emw1c1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgnz-XUllW8[/youtube:29emw1c1]

 

[destiny]

I feel pretty sure that every gift of the spirit has somehow, at one time or another, been perverted and abused beyond God's intentions. There is another deception that's just as bad, and that being for a man or woman to despise and persecute what God intended for good.

I have seen so many Christians feed on negative controversy until they end up just as unbalanced and deceived as those they have allowed to make them become that way. Balance and understanding is a hard thing to come by.

 

[lovely]

Good post, Jamie. I agree.

 

[FightingAtheism]

Destiny, I agree. The devil attacks the truth and perverts it, making others repell, such as Dave Slayer over here.

The Holy Spirit is given to us with the evidence of speaking with tongues. In the book of Acts, five out of six times it is mentioned that when people received the Holy Spirit, there was a sign, four out of six times it is mentioned that the sign was speaking with tongues. And 1 Corinthian 14: 2,15,16 claims that he that prays in an unknown tongue prays in the Spirit. So my conclusion would be that tongues is what follows when you receive the Holy Spirit.

The Corinthians, probably all of them were baptised with the Holy Spirit (v18), which means that they spoke with tongues, as new Christians, were misusing the ability to speak with tongues. They didn't control themselves with that ability of speaking with tongues. They spoke with tongues unto men when there's no interpreter -Paul was against it, because when you speak in an unknown tongue unto men when there's no interpreter, no one understands him, which means that no one will receive edification. So this would be why Paul tells them, "But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. (v28)"

Many say that Paul was against praying in an unknown tongue. This is a fallacy, Paul was against people speaking in an unknown tongue unto men when there's no interpreter. "But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. (v28)"

(Please keep in mind that Paul was not against praying with tongues, he was against people speaking with tongues unto men when there's no interpreter.)

 

[Dave Slayer]

Destiny, I agree. The devil attacks the truth and perverts it, making others repell, such as Dave Slayer over here.

Call it what you will, but I stand by my position just as you stand by yours. I could be right, I could be wrong. You could be right, but you might also be wrong. We could both even be wrong. However, I have the right to believe as I will just like you or anyone else here. We both read from the same Bible and yet arrive at differnet conclusions, which is fine. Just don't go off acting like you are mr. know it all and I am some dummy that has not a clue.

I have been a Christian for 13 years and never spoke in tongues and never needed to. I speak to God in English and He understands me just fine.

 

[awaken]

just curious Dave..why so many threads on tongues?

 

[awaken]

Acts 2:1-4 (Pentecost)
"When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them." (Acts 2:1-4)

Who spoke in tongues at Pentecost?
Who were the believers talking to when they spoke in tongues?
What Spirit filled member interpreted?

Acts 10:44-46 (at the household of Cornelius the Gentile)
"While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised [Jewish] believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God." (Acts 10:44-46)

Who were they speaking too?
Was there an interpreter?

Acts 19:1-7 (the disciples in Ephesus)
"While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit." So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?" "John's baptism," they replied. Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. There were about twelve men in all." (Acts 19:1-7)

Who interpreted?
Who are they speaking too?

In every passage where people spoke in tongues in the book of Acts, notice that every new believer spoke in tongues.
The purpose was to praise God in the Holy Spirit.
There was not a single example of anyone speaking in tongues for the purpose of sharing the Gospel with foreigners.
The people were speaking to God in tongues. This is what the apostle Paul meant when he said:
"For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God." (1 Corinthians 14:2)

"He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified." (1 Corinthians 14:5)

Here Paul said that when a person speaks a message in tongues to a church congregation, the message must be interpreted so that the congregation can be edified (i.e. so that the message will benefit them, instruct them, build them up in their faith, etc.). This describes another form of tongues in which a message is delivered from heaven down to earth, which must be interpreted into the local language.

So there are actually two purposes for tongues in the New Testament, which is something that many Christians don't realize. There is a "public" form of tongues for delivering a message from God to a group of people (which must be interpreted into the local language), and there is a "private" form of tongues for speaking to God (praying to Him in the Spirit). Each form of tongues has a different purpose.

 

[Dave Slayer]

On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. There were about twelve men in all." (Acts 19:6-7)

There were 12 men listed that spoke in tongues. You cannot take this passage and have it saying that every single believer of that day spoke in tongues.

 

[Cornelius]

Now who ? :devil do you think hates the gifts of the Holy Spirit enough to make war on it all the time?

 

[awaken]

On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. There were about twelve men in all." (Acts 19:6-7)

There were 12 men listed that spoke in tongues. You cannot take this passage and have it saying that every single believer of that day spoke in tongues.

Are you saying these men are the apostles/disciples?

 

[Dave Slayer]

On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. There were about twelve men in all." (Acts 19:6-7)

There were 12 men listed that spoke in tongues. You cannot take this passage and have it saying that every single believer of that day spoke in tongues.

Are you saying these men are the apostles/disciples?

I don't know, it does not say. I know many people who got saved and didn't speak in tongues and never spoke in tongues. Therefore you cannot say that every believer must speak in tongues, otherwise every believer would be speaking in tongues but that is not the case.

 

[awaken]

[quote="Dave Slayer":33dqkjuq]On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. There were about twelve men in all." (Acts 19:6-7)

There were 12 men listed that spoke in tongues. You cannot take this passage and have it saying that every single believer of that day spoke in tongues.

Are you saying these men are the apostles/disciples?

I don't know, it does not say. I know many people who got saved and didn't speak in tongues and never spoke in tongues. Therefore you cannot say that every believer must speak in tongues, otherwise every believer would be speaking in tongues but that is not the case.[/quote:33dqkjuq]

I am getting confused in what I say in the two different tongues thread so if I repeat myself...sorry!

I am not saying every believer has to speak in tongues...salvation is manifested by the fruit of the spirit. Again, tongues is not a salvation issue. It is not a sign of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

These people were already believers and had been water baptized. Just like in Samaria..

The New Christians in Samaria (Acts 8:12-17)
"But when they believed Philip as he preached the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. ... When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them. When they arrived, they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit." (Acts 8:12-17)

Notice that Peter and John were not sent to Samaria until the apostles heard that the Samaritans had received salvation by believing the Gospel message which Philip had preached. When Peter and John arrived, they laid hands on the Samaritans and then the Holy Spirit came on the Samaritans. Therefore, some amount of time passed between the moment the Samaritans were saved and the moment they "received" the Holy Spirit.

What did Simon see later on in the scriptures?

 

[Dave Slayer]

Awaken, are you saying that I don't have the Holy Ghost because I don't speak in tongues? Doesn't the Bible say that believers are sealed with the Hloy Spirit? Does this include all believers or only those who speak in tongues?

Ephesians 1:13 (NIV)
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit

Romans 8:9 (NIV)
You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

1 Corinthians 12:13 (NIV)
For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one bodyâ€â€whether Jews or Greeks, slave or freeâ€â€and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

These verses seem to indicate that all believers have the Holy Spirit and not only those who speak in tongues. Romans 8:9 says that anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ.

 

[awaken]

Awaken, are you saying that I don't have the Holy Ghost because I don't speak in tongues? Doesn't the Bible say that believers are sealed with the Hloy Spirit? Does this include all believers or only those who speak in tongues?

Ephesians 1:13 (NIV)
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit

Romans 8:9 (NIV)
You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

1 Corinthians 12:13 (NIV)
For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one bodyâ€â€whether Jews or Greeks, slave or freeâ€â€and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

These verses seem to indicate that all believers have the Holy Spirit and not only those who speak in tongues. Romans 8:9 says that anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ.

I believe there is a difference in the indwelling and the filling/baptism....same Spirit!


In Old Testament times, God promised that He would someday make a new covenant with the Jews, and this new covenant would involve the forgiveness of sins (Jeremiah 31:31-34. Jesus instituted the New Covenant with His blood which He shed on the cross (as described in Luke 22:14-20), and passages such as Romans 15:27, Ephesians 2:11-19, and 3:4-6 tell us that Gentiles (i.e. non-Jews) can share in the blessing of salvation through faith in Jesus. This is important because it means that salvation and the indwelling Holy Spirit are available to everyone (both Jews and Gentiles).


When we are forgiven of our sins under the New Covenant, God sprinkles "clean water" on us (referring to the "living water" of the Holy Spirit) and cleanses us from all impurities (Ezekiel 36:25-27). We are also told that God will put His Spirit in us and move us to obey Him (Ezekiel 36:25-27). This is the indwelling Holy Spirit, which is only given to those who have received salvation through faith in Jesus.


Jesus told the woman at the well that He will give people "living water" which will become a spring of water welling up to eternal life (John 4:10-14). John 7:37-39 explains that this "living water" is the Holy Spirit, who is only given to those who believe.


Jesus said that after He goes away, the Counselor (the Spirit of truth) will be sent to us and will teach, guide, and remind us of Scriptural truths (John 14:26, 16:7-8, and 12-15). This is the indwelling Holy Spirit.


In Romans 8:9-15, 1 Corinthians 2:12-14, 3:16, and 6:11, the apostle Paul said that the Holy Spirit lives in us to lead us and give us discernment of spiritual truths and wash us and sanctify us and justify us, and so on. This is the indwelling Holy Spirit.


In 2 Corinthians 1:21-22, Ephesians 1:13-14, and 4:30, Paul said that when we believed the word of truth (the Gospel of our salvation) then we were marked with a seal by having the Holy Spirit placed in our hearts as a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance. This is the indwelling Holy Spirit.


In Galatians 3:2, 5, and 14, Paul said that we receive the promised Holy Spirit by believing what we heard (the Gospel of our salvation). This is the indwelling Holy Spirit.


In 1 John 2:27 and 4:13-16, the apostle John said that we have an anointing in us which teaches us about all things (i.e. the Holy Spirit of truth), and John said that God's Spirit lives in us. This is the indwelling Holy Spirit.

In the above passages we can see that the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in our hearts when we believe the Gospel of our salvation. There is no indication that the Holy Spirit might not come into our hearts at the moment of salvation, and there is no indication that the Holy Spirit might come into our hearts at any time other than the moment of salvation, and there is no indication that we need to do anything other than believe in Jesus in order to receive the Holy Spirit. This is why Christian denominations tend to say that we automatically receive the indwelling Holy Spirit at the moment when we receive salvation.

Now, when the people of Samaria believed Philip as he preached the Gospel in Acts 8:12-19, it appears that they did not automatically receive the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Scriptures teach a difference in the indwelling and filling/baptism...