Counseling As Help

[Ivy]

I haven't been a member of this forum long, but I was drawn to it because, to my view, people are allowed to come here and ask anything. I think the internet, if anything, should be an opportunity for those of us who walk with the Lord to reach out to those who are seeking.

So far, however, I've read a lot of suggestions to seek out a counselor, or a pastor/counselor. To my view, this is the hallmark of our generation; an ineffective band-aid in many cases. It is my opinion that it is the minority of people who can benefit from counseling, and the minority of counselors/pastors who can help them.

There are pastors in my family, and there friends within my gate of influence that visit counselors. One of my family members, as a pastor, was a true man of God. Another one wasn't. A good friend who's been seeing a "Christian" counselor has become more secular in her thinking since, and therefore less open to the working of the Holy Spirit in her own heart.

I think of what Paul the apostle would answer a lot of the questions I read here, and I think the same way he did, only I refrain from answering so "brashly" because it seems "unsympathetic."

What's happened to getting the sin out of our lives?

Sin isn't an action, it's a disposition of our will, something we're born with; it's genetic. Sin says, "I won't give up my right to myself," in other words, "I won't listen to anything from anybodyâ€â€I'm the boss." Yes, we can be the boss; it's our God-given free will choice. God won't force the privilege of listening to Him, loving Him, upon usâ€â€but any time we decide that what He has to say is worth listening to, Sin is overridden in our hearts. It heals us. It's the freedom we can't win by ourselves, can't be talked into us by the most professional of counselors, or the godliest of pastors. Sins with an "s" at the end are nothing for God to forgive. Once we hand the disposition of Sin itself over to God, what Jesus took upon Himself on the cross, we're covered. That's what being saved is.

If this riles anyone, I'm sorry, but I'm riled by this generation of, "There's nothing wrong with you that a pill won't fix, otherwise, you're fine, just depressed." Again, to my view, the cases of true, clinical depression nowadays are the minority, in other words, a chemical imbalance of strictly organic cause. More so, we're seeing an epidemic of sin and its consequences. It's sending people into despair, and they are being counseled to death, not to life.

When someone claims to be a Christian, especially, and is still toying with sin, and asks, "How can I be free?" What's wrong with saying, in essence, "Repent"? If you're a Christian, and you're doing something you don't want to do, stop doing it. For those who want to be healed from their sin struggles, why don't we suggest a fresh meeting at the cross of Christ; a fresh look at what Christ has done? And if there are people in your life that claim to be Christians, but are practicing sin, Paul said not even to eat with such a one.

I am so new here that I don't know how this will go over. If it doesn't, I'll let it go. I have my own, private discipleship forum where everything is dealt with and discussed. I thought I would "venture out" here and see if the Sin issue could be dealt with head-on in a public, open forum, but I'm just not confident it can be. The world and its philosophy of forgiveness, so unlike what Christ and Paul taught, has seeped into the church - but the Bride is still being readied, and the cross is enough for me.

 

[destiny]

I agree with you, Ivy. My life was a great big mess until God revealed His Son to me; Jesus changed my life. He is my counselor. 2Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

I see people on here who struggle with sin issues that have led to demonic problems, they go hand in glove. I realize a lot of this is because true discipleship is missing in todays church, and we are called to make disciples.

Could you imagine one of Jesus' disciples, or Jesus Himself for that matter, recommending a "counselor"? It would be unheard of.

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given: and the government shall be on his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6

 

[Ivy]

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given: and the government shall be on his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6

Beautiful! :amen

Wow, Destiny, well said. Maybe I'm not all alone.

 

[stovebolts]

Hello Ivy,

Know that I'm in agreement 100% with your post and believe you me, when I first came to this forum I ranted on this subject weekly :D (Remember those days Sis )

I'm not sure if you've ever heard of Jay E. Adams, but he's done a lot of work in this area. If you havn't heard of one of his books Competent to Counsel, it would make a nice addition to your library.

http://www.nouthetic.org/
Jay E. Adams spearheaded what he calls Nouthetic Counseling and is based on Biblical truth's found solely within Scripture. Actually, the phrase Competent to Counsel comes from Romans 15:14: "I myself am convinced about you, my brothers, that you yourselves are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, and competent to counsel one another." and "All Scripture is breathed out by God and useful for teaching, for conviction, for correction and for disciplined training in righteousness in order to fit and fully equip the man from God for every good task." (2 Timothy 3:16,17) (JEA)

If you haven't heard of Nouthetic Counseling, check it out and let me know what you think.

http://www.nouthetic.org/nouthetic-coun ... eling.html

 

[shad]

Hi Ivy, nice to meet you.

I believe that best Counselor is Jesus. He gives the best advise in the whole wide world. We have so many confusions spiritually and in our pravite lives because we are ignoring Jesus' teachings and warnings. If we are not willing to listen to Him, no matter how often we visit pastors' or counselors' offices, we cannot solve any problems. He is the only way for any kind of predicaments or problems.

my two cents.

 

[Ivy]

Thank you, Jeff, I will check that out, it sounds good.

And Shad, hi to you, too thank you for your two cents, I really appreciate it.

I think of a Christian Dr. Phil approach, really...Paul was the original and Spirit-filled "Dr. Phil" - he took after Christ for certain, saying things straight to the point, not leaving out name-calling if necessary. ;) For the hurting there is a balm, but it's of the truth; if it hurts, there is infection, but it still needs to be applied.

 

[Ivy]

I just checked out that link, Jeff, and I had no idea they had ascribed a name to what everyone of us in Christ Jesus should be doing. I read the entire front page, and they are absolutely correct.

On my Jesus Movement page of my main website, I include the following quote from Chuck Smith:

As their numbers began to grow, God began to lay a burden upon my wife’s heart to reach these kids for Jesus….So, In May of 1968 we rented a little two-bedroom house….By the end of the first week, 21 young fellows had accepted Jesus Christ and moved into the house. By the end of the second week, 35 had accepted the Lord and moved into the house. We had built bunks out into the garage, and they were sleeping wall to wall through the house. One kid was even sleeping in the bathtub.

John Higgins, the elder of the house, called a meeting after the second week. He said, ‘All right, you guys! We’ve got to have a house meeting. Some of you guys have been Christians now for two whole weeks. You’re sitting around here getting fat in the Word. Go out and evangelize! Everyone that’s been a Christian more than a week, split! Get out because we need room to bring in the new Christians.’

Can you believe they considered one week old Christians "old Christians," needing to get out and evangelize?! My point is, if we truly come to the cross, we accept its freedom - never again slaves to Sin; to stop regularly committing sins or practicing sins - and we make our business Christ's business; preach the Gospel and bind up the broken-hearted. Period.

 

[Timf]

A good friend who's been seeing a "Christian" counselor has become more secular in her thinking...

I once startled a friend by making the statement that all psychology was wrong. Anyone who has been through public school and taken endless true / false tests knows how unlikely an absolute statement is to be true. When I was asked to defend my proposition, my response was;

1. No psychological theory of human behavior includes the concept of sin.
2. Without understanding sin, you cannot hope to understand human behavior.
3. No therapeutic remedy derived from such a flawed understanding could be effective.

From Rogerian to Freudian and everything in between such grasping in darkness is like eating soup with a fork.

However, before jumping into "Christian" counseling, one needs to consider that most of what passes for Christian counseling is secular psychology with a few Christian buzz words added.

The Christian is pulled in two directions, the Spirit and the flesh. The flesh loves the approval of others and is impressed with certification, achievement, and organizational endorsements. This can be seen in the early church not only in the elevation of priests and bishops but in the establishment of catechetical schools run by those skilled in rhetoric and other Greek philosophies.

Even early on Paul chastises the Corinthians for going to a secular court to sue each other. He asks them if there wasn't anyone wise enough to judge their dispute within the church.

This gets to the heart of the matter. If a Christian wants to grow into the image of Christ (Eph 4), should he look for someone to help him that is important, well educated, and denominationally sanctioned or should he look for someone who is older and wiser and clearly demonstrates the light and love of Jesus in his life. These two people are often mutually exclusive.

We do not often look for wisdom in others because we have no idea what to look for. Wisdom is from God, it is not learned. Wisdom is given freely to any who ask, it is just that so few ask.

The unsaved are without hope and without God. Christians can "solve" their problems by closeness to God. This is described in James 4. Humility is the key to receiving more grace. A Christian who has grown close to the Lord can help another in the same process.

 

[Ivy]

Another "Wow" from me to you Timf!

 

[lovely]

I think it is best to renounce psychology as a false teaching. I have been receiving this newletter for a several years now... http://www.psychoheresy-aware.org/ and it has had some good teaching on this subject.

As believers we should certainly not mix psychology with Scripture...this is mixing a lie with the Truth. I think we mix a lot of false teachings (isms) in, but I won't go into them all so that I don't hijack. All good counsel is from the Lord and based in His wisdom. If someone is not willing to attribute good sound wisdom to God, and they do not have a life that shows they fear God, then do not seek their counsel, they have no knowledge. This is one reason why it's better for the church to have no elders rather than elders who are not qualified.

I do believe that we need to address depression and despair. This can happen to those who are completely empty and in need of Christ, or it can happen to the believer who is in deep trial and sin and who needs to turn to the Lord and trust their lives to Him completely. Many want to know how to do this, but no one is giving them the answer. It is not enough to say read and pray daily...they are having trouble functioning daily. Believers are in desperate need of discipleship from the body of Christ, of mercy, of care, and most importantly of prayer and sound teaching. Yes, I agree repentance is the root need, but then what...we have to move past this into being free, how does one become truly set free? I think al lot of times people hear the church saying repent, but then there is no committed love that plunges us into coming along side them with discipleship...it's very harsh when it's one without the other.

The Lord bless all of you.

 

[LostSoul]

I think it is best to renounce psychology as a false teaching. I have been receiving this newletter for a several years now... http://www.psychoheresy-aware.org/ and it has had some good teaching on this subject.

As believers we should certainly not mix psychology with Scripture...this is mixing a lie with the Truth. I think we mix a lot of false teachings (isms) in, but I won't go into them all so that I don't hijack. All good counsel is from the Lord and based in His wisdom. If someone is not willing to attribute good sound wisdom to God, and they do not have a life that shows they fear God, then do not seek their counsel, they have no knowledge. This is one reason why it's better for the church to have no elders rather than elders who are not qualified.

I do believe that we need to address depression and despair. This can happen to those who are completely empty and in need of Christ, or it can happen to the believer who is in deep trial and sin and who needs to turn to the Lord and trust their lives to Him completely. Many want to know how to do this, but no one is giving them the answer. It is not enough to say read and pray daily...they are having trouble functioning daily. Believers are in desperate need of discipleship from the body of Christ, of mercy, of care, and most importantly of prayer and sound teaching. Yes, I agree repentance is the root need, but then what...we have to move past this into being free, how does one become truly set free? I think al lot of times people hear the church saying repent, but then there is no committed love that plunges us into coming along side them with discipleship...it's very harsh when it's one without the other.

The Lord bless all of you.

Amen

 

[Ivy]

Yes, absolutely, Lovely, I agree, discipleship is imperative. It is one of my callings alongside intercession. But so often it's repackaged as empty socializing and sticking someone into a program, referring them "someplace else" or thinking they'll "get it" by simply sitting in a pew. The responsibility to preach, teach and disciple falls to the born again believer. I think we all have to be willing to "lose" some if the truth isn't what someone wants to hear. Still, I have born with people for years and years who claim to be Christians, but have not lived up to the standard of Christianity, just because the Holy Spirit has put the long-suffering in my heart to do so - but we need to be led by the Spirit, not sympathize aimlessly. Sometimes people need tough love. It's still love.

 

[Caroline H]

When I think of Christian counseling I don't think of a shrink with a Bible, I think of someone like a pastor or a spriritually mature Christian who is gifted to encourage people and expound Scripture to them. I do agree that worldy psychological approaches have no place in the Church, but to lump good, sound, Christian counseling in with that and throw it out the window would be doing a huge disservice to people in need. When my sister's husband left her and her 2 year old son several years ago she went to a counselor at a church in her local area. He helped her to see God's point of view on what she was going through, and helped her to entrust her feelings to God. He didn't feed her a bunch of Freudian rubbish or what have you, but only took the Bible and counseled her through that. To expect a Christian who is hurting to go through it alone is harsh. I understand that we need to encourage our brothers and sisters to listen to Jesus' counsel above all else, and that they can find all they need in His word, but what is the difference between what we talk about with people in Christian Talk & Advice and going face to face with someone for counselling? To me, it is just that...going face to face.

I don't mean to sound defensive about it, but from what I've read it sounds like people are opposed to someone reaching out to a counselor for help. Maybe I've misunderstood what has been said here, help me understand?

 

[Ivy]

I don't want to monopolize this thread, even though I started it. ;)

My aim in starting this thread was to point out the worldly idea of passing the buck, when any born again Christian, personally committed to God, is qualified to "counsel." It is wrong to depend on licensed counselors or pastors only; many of them are not Godly. Whether it is via a balanced Christian forum, with a Christian neighbor, someone in your church, what have you - it may or may not be a pastor that provides the best Christian counsel. Absolutely; it must be Biblical to be Christian.

Also, I see so many "bleeding hearts" even in "Christian" advice. I mourn with those who mourn - but there needs to be discernment. Some who ask for advice about their struggle with sin aren't really asking, they are seeking a diversion, playing a game, if you will. They aren't willing to hear that repentance is necessary first and foremost, or, that Jesus really is enough. They want "more." There is no more.

Oswald Chambers said that Jesus simply spoke the harshest words ever spoken, and then left it up to the individual to decide. What he said to the rich young ruler is an example. He told him, "Sell all you have and follow me." When the rich young ruler went away sorrowful, Jesus didn't follow him, or dumb down what was required.

Discernment makes all the difference in giving Godly counsel. Some people really do need us to weep with them, and others need to be shown the door, given the opportunity to walk through it, and then it's between themselves and God.

 

[lovely]

Ivy,

Yes, we will loose many unfortunately, because they do not love Truth. Yet others will receive it and become broken ground. I agree, we must be led by the Spirit, be wise and discerning about how to apply God's Word. God will use the whole body, He can work through one individual in His body to prepare the soil, another to plant seeds, and still another to water, and so we are not all called to the same role. If the soil is not broken, then some will never move on....it's true...but what if it takes a different type of tool to break it? God knows who to use to do this, and we should just be willing servants, but I think it all begins with love. Love that will cause the church to fight it's own inertia, to get up and begin doing the dirty, exhausting job of being in a relationship with one another, the weak, the poor, the sinner, and the lost. We tend to let the gifts divide us, but when they are practiced in love they edify and bring us to maturity...to love, which is the only thing that remains eternally.

You are so right, it is not a repackaged social program (and this applies to more than just depression), or a handshake and greeting on Sunday morning, and so on...its people who love God, who love His Word, and who love each other. It is people establishing relationships that are selfless, hospitable, longsuffering, etc. and bearing with each other as we overcome sin and trials. When one of us suffers, the whole body suffers. We should all be praying that God will use us this way. We also have to be careful that the Truth does not become polluted with self-righteousness, condemnation, and judgement especially if we haven't suffered ourselves.

I think that psychology can never be plugged into God's wonderful process, and that if it's used it will cloud the waters and just have to be filtered out somewhere along the way. It has served to pack down the ground that God's truth turns up.

Caroline,

You just posted while I was posting, and I do not disagree with your post. I do think there is a trend in the church right now to mix in psychology, though, and it would seem that your sister was blessed to not have stepped into one.

The Lord bless you both.

 

[lovely]

Wow, Ivy, you posted at the same time too...you guys are fast posters, or maybe I am just slow. ;)

 

[destiny]

When I think of Christian counseling I don't think of a shrink with a Bible, I think of someone like a pastor or a spriritually mature Christian who is gifted to encourage people and expound Scripture to them. I do agree that worldy psychological approaches have no place in the Church, but to lump good, sound, Christian counseling in with that and throw it out the window would be doing a huge disservice to people in need. When my sister's husband left her and her 2 year old son several years ago she went to a counselor at a church in her local area. He helped her to see God's point of view on what she was going through, and helped her to entrust her feelings to God. He didn't feed her a bunch of Freudian rubbish or what have you, but only took the Bible and counseled her through that. To expect a Christian who is hurting to go through it alone is harsh. I understand that we need to encourage our brothers and sisters to listen to Jesus' counsel above all else, and that they can find all they need in His word, but what is the difference between what we talk about with people in Christian Talk & Advice and going face to face with someone for counselling? To me, it is just that...going face to face.

I don't mean to sound defensive about it, but from what I've read it sounds like people are opposed to someone reaching out to a counselor for help. Maybe I've misunderstood what has been said here, help me understand?

Caroline, I never thought for a minute you would ever suggest anything but Godly counsel. I think we all speak from our own experiences.. good or bad. I gotta run but wanted you to know that.

 

[Ivy]

We also have to be careful that the Truth does not become polluted with self-righteousness, condemnation, and judgement especially if we haven't suffered ourselves.

There is no Godly counsel, no truth spoken from self-righteousness, condemnation, judgment or pride.

When a worldly-minded person, whether they claim to be a Christian or not, dismisses truth and calls us judgmental because they don't like the truth - and then we decide to merely sympathize so as not to be criticized, we've watered down the message of the Gospel. People who are hurting and love truth will love hearing it. People who are hurting and hate truth will criticize us for delivering it.

Too many times, advice or counsel is considered "good" if it doesn't offend in any way - but someone who loves truth will not be offended, will receive the truth, and will love God and others all the more.

 

[lovely]

Ivy,

Thanks for your reply. I agree with your post, but I would offer that as believers our execution of God's love and truth is flawed while we are still in this flesh, even in the best of circumstances. I will make this my last response, as I keep making points that seem to need continued clarification, and I don't want to hijack this thread. The Lord bless you.

 

[Ginger]

Ivy I read your OP and I don't know what instance you mean. You say a lot of people tell others to seek out counseling and then go on to say we need to get the sin out of our lives. Obviously if someone has sin in their lives they need to deal with it but I don't see the two as always the same unless I am missing something - which I usually am ?

It is hard especially on the internet, I tell people they need to find a good church but that simple statement should come with a 2 page of what a good church is and what to look out for! The same with telling people if they need it to seek out a pastor, we don't know what pastor they have - not all pastors have the gift of counseling let alone if all pastors are 'sound'. So it comes with hoping a person who reads it have a modicum of common sense and more important spiritual discernment in choosing who to go to, we constantly have to test and to see if advice is good or not from everyone.

I don't hold to some people I hear say 'all counseling is wrong' in Christian circles period. It depends on how it is done if it accompanies bible study etc. I don't like normal psychologist/psychiatrists and I don't think all christian ones are automatically good either but I am sure if you ask around people you trust and look up to in the christian walk and see if they recommend anyone say for christian counseling/help if the church isn't up to it.

Our church has what you call redemption groups. We have a high number of females who have been victims to incest, rape etc come to the Lord but have a lot of things to work out and through this group through a combination of bible study and explanation and support they work through years of guilt, wrong thinking as in their marriage they are not free physically with their partners.

We apparently also have a huge number of men enslaved with porn etc (they keep saying they are sorry to God but keep going back to it). There is a redemption group for them and apparently with a high focus on getting them to see what Christ has done for us and what truly it means not just to them but their wives, and making them get accountability partners, software for the computer etc (covenant eyes) to reduce the chance of being tempted and when they are they remember bible verses so they can want to pray etc. So they can break the cycle once and for all and be free, free from guilt in God and know what it is to truly repent. And also to know they are not alone.

Personally I think these are more discipleship classes which is scriptural but with a different emphasis on different things in our lives we need to understand and to grow in at the same time studying Gods word.

We can say well (except for the female victims) their faith is weak they just need to repent and be done with it - just get on with it. But the problem is we are all in different stages of our walk with God and sometimes we need a good Christian pastor to point out to a couple with marriage difficulties, sin that maybe the person has excused, or some practical help if one is unfaithful how to let Jesus heal a marriage and what that will look like practically. Then they can grow in the faith and then help others latter on with their weak faith.

I would hate someone to be in church and feel it is wrong to seek help from their pastor if they have marriage problems or guilt from some sin they keep repeating and they just need an objective person to help them practically and to point out things that could help as well as helping them and showing them scripture that might help them understand if they are sinning so they can repent of it.

I don't know the following church but I agree with what is said on the page re biblical counseling and maybe it will help people here who needs it what to look out for -
http://www.plainfieldbible.com/counseling.htm