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Darkness

Atonement

Member
Darkness- the absence of light. Darkness existed before the light of creation (Gen1:2). Since darkness was associated with the chaos that existed before creation, it came to be associated with evil, bad luck or afflication (Job 17:12, 21:17). Darkness symbolizes human ignorance of God's will and, thus, is associated with sin (Job 24:13-17). Darkness also describes the condition of those who have not yet seen the light concerning Jesus (John 1:4-5; 12:35; Eph. 5:14). Hating the light will bring condemnation (Col. 1:13; 2Pet. 2:17). Living in extreme darkness describes those who at the end of time have not repented (Rev. 16:10; 18:23). So if darkness is a symbol used for all these, is it no wonder that after the Judgment, God uses this darkness as a form of punishment? After all, a man walked in it, so why not spend eternity in it. Darkness is also a symbol of death (Job 10:21-22; 38:17). Despite the many beliefs of Hell and conscious and unconscious torment. Hell is a place of darkness, a place of weeping, and a place for everlasting punishment. One can not be punished unless living in some form. Darkness would be of no essence if there was no conscious being for it to exist under. So therefore why all this talk about darkness, and outter darkness if it was to be used as a symbol to the unconscious being? No where in Scripture does darkness refer to an unconscious state of mind/being. So it is my belief that this darkness of Hell is a form of punishment to the conscious mind of the lost sinner.
Of course I have provided Scripture on what darkness refers to, for your study. If you believe that darkness refers to an unconscious state of mind/being, I would ask that you prove this to us with Scripture, and quoting verbatim. Thanks Atone
 
Three times in Scripture, all in the book of Matthew, we find the term "Outer darkness".

Mat 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
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Mat 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast [him] into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
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Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.



In Mat 8:12 The Lord says that the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness.
In Mat 22:13 We find the Lord speaking in a parable about a man coming into the wedding feast without a wedding garment. The king told the servants to cast him into the outer darkness.
And finally in Mat 25:30 The Lord is telling the parable of the talents, where the man going to a far off country gave this man one talent. The man hid the talent, and did not produce any gain for his master. The man takes the one talent, and gives it to another, then calls this man a wicked and slothful servant, unprofitable, and has him cast into the outer darkness.

In one verse we find children of the kingdom. IN another is a wedding guest without a proper garment. And in the third we find a wicked, slothful, unprofitable servant.

The term servant in that last one sounds to me like someone who is saved, yet does not trust the Master.

The Concordance says that outer means outer. Here is what is says for the word "Darkness".


Lexicon Results for skotos (Strong's 4655)
Greek for 4655

Pronunciation Guide
skotos {skot'-os}

TDNT Reference Root Word
TDNT - 7:423,1049 from the base of 4639
Part of Speech
n n
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) darkness

a) of night darkness

b) of darkened eyesight or blindness

2) metaph.

a) of ignorance respecting divine things and human duties, and the accompanying ungodliness and immorality, together with their consequent misery in hell


b) persons in whom darkness becomes visible and holds sway

Another interesting point, is the use of the term weeping and gnashing of teeth. That term is found five times in Scripture. Three times in the same verses quoted above, in referring to the outer darkness, and these two:

Mat 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint [him] his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Luke 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you [yourselves] thrust out.


Both of these verses seem to speak of people who thought that they were saved. It is hard to tell from the context. In Matthew 24 He is speaking of the signs of the end of the age, and then compares a faithful servant with and evil one.

Mat 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

In Luke He is simply speaking to the person that asked this question in verse 23.
Luke 13:23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved?...

Where is the outer darkness?
Is it different from hell?
Who goes there?
 
Thank you :lilangel: for responding to this thread. I see few have because it's hard to debate the truth about darkness and what the Bible teaches on it..
 
I know this post is going to be long and I should not do it :oops:

But I can't help it. Reading the OP I got reminded of this sermon by one of my favorite expositors.. I have studied the Gospels and Romans using his commentaries as guides and have been blessed by this man come from God. I just have to post it. I know its off topic, but enjoy

THE DARKNESS OF GOLGOTHA
by G. CAMPBELL MORGAN  1863-1945


From the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land until the ninth hour â€â€Matthew 27:45.

THERE'S ALWAYS THE danger that we might read this verse too quickly. We treat it too often as though it were merely the record of something incidental.

As a matter of fact, it is the central verse in the story of the cross. Indeed, the cross itself is not mentioned in the verse-no word is spoken of it or of the Christ. They are alike hidden, and yet the period was one of three hours' duration, the very central hours of the experience of the Savior of men. Christ and the cross are alike hidden within that verse, and that fact is most suggestive because in those hours transactions were accomplished that through all eternity defy the apprehension and explanation of finite minds.

It is not to be passed over lightly that all the Synoptists record the fact of that darkness. Three hours of darkness and of silence! All the ribald clamor was over, the material opposition utterly exhausted, the turmoil ended. Man had done his last and his worst. Beyond that period of the three hours' silence, even human actions were expressive of pity. Nothing has impressed my own heart, or amazed me more in reading this story anew, and attempting to meditate upon it in view of this service, than what I shall venture to describe as the wonderful psychological conditions of those hours beyond the hours of silence.

It is as though that appalling silence and that overwhelming darkness had changed the entire attitude of man to the Savior. The very vinegar they offered Him to drink was offered Him in pity. What they said about Elijah was expressive of their desire to sympathize. The centurion's testimony was that of a man whose heart was strangely moved toward the August and dignified Savior. When presently they found Him dead, and therefore did not break His bones, the spear thrust was one of kindness, lest perchance He might still suffer, in spite of the fact that He appeared to be dead. Multitudes dispersed from the scene at Golgotha smiting their breasts, overwhelmed with a sense of awe, and strangely moved by some new pity. And there is no picture in all the New Testament more full of pathos and of power than that of the women standing silent and amazed through all those hours of His suffering, and still standing there beyond them.

Then also all of the cries that passed the lips of Jesus beyond the darkness were significant. "My God! My God, why didst Thou forsake Me!"â€â€Matthew 27:46â€â€for that was the tense; a slight change from the tense of the actual Psalm, a question asked by One who was emerging from the experience to which He referred. And then as John is most careful to record for us , "Knowing that all things were now finished, He said, I thirst"â€â€John 19:28. Beyond that came the words of the great proclamation, "It is finished"â€â€John 19:30. And as last the words of the final committal, full of dignity, were spoken: "Father, into Thy hands I commend My spirit"â€â€Luke 23:46. Everything was changed beyond the hours of silence and of darkness.

Much has been written about these hours of darkness, much which is not warranted by any careful spiritual attention to the story itself. You will call to mind how, at great length many years ago, it was argued that the darkness was that of the sun's eclipse. But that is entirely impossible, for Passover was always held at full moon, when there could be no eclipse of the sun. The darkness has been described as nature's sympathy with the suffering of the Lord, but that is a pagan conception of nature, a conception of nature as having some consciousness apart from God and out of harmony with His work. It has been said that the darkness was brought about by an act of God, and was expressive of His sympathy with His Son. I admit that that is an appealing idea, and has some element of truth in it, in that we may discover the overruling of His government; but to declare that that darkness was caused by God because of His sympathy with His Son is to deny the cry of Jesus which immediately followed the darkness and referred to it. The darkness was to Him a period when He experienced whatever He may have meant by the words, "Thou didst forsake Me"â€â€Matthew 27:46. If I have succeeded in these words spoken in reverent spirit, in suggesting to you the difficulty of those central three hours, then our hearts are prepared for going forward.

I submit thoughtfully that no interpretation of that darkness is to be trusted save that of the Lord who experienced it. Has He flung any light on the darkness which will enable us to apprehend the meaning of the darkness? Did any word escape His lips that will help us to explain those silent hours? I think the answer is to be found in these narratives, and to that teaching of the Lord we appeal in order that we may consider the meaning of the darkness, and the passing of the darkness, and thereafter attempt reverently to look back at the transaction in the darkness.
The Meaning of the Darkness

What was this darkness? How was it caused? What did it really mean? That this question is of importance is proved by that to which I have already drawn your attention, the fact that Matthew, Mark, and Luke alike carefully record that it took place at this very time. The reference is made by each of them in detail. It was something to be noted, something to be remembered, something that made its impression alike on the evangelist who saw the King, the evangelist who saw the Servant, and the evangelist who saw the Perfect Man. We cannot pass it over as though it were merely incidental, and consequently we shall attempt to discover its meaning in the light of what our Lord Himself said before He passed into the darkness.

Luke records for us a fact not mentioned by either of the other evangelists, that in Gethsemane Jesus said to the man who came to arrest Him, "This is your hour, and the power of darkness"â€â€Luke 22:53. That was a most suggestive word, spoken as I have reminded you, in Gethsemane before He passed from the garden to and through those trial scenes with which you are familiar. After the High Priest cast the incense on the fire and just as He was leaving the garden, Jesus spoke to the men about Him, "This is your hour, and the power of darkness." This is your hour! I go back to this phrase again, not to tarry at length with it, but to ask you most carefully to ponder it.

At the beginning of our Lord's public ministry, He referred to an hour which was not yet, to an hour which was postponed. During the course of His ministry, you will find that the evangelists more than once allude to the same hour, and to that hour, whatever it might have been, as to a postponed hour. Men attempted to arrest Him, but they could not because His hour was not yet come. Men desired to encompass His death, and wrought with all their strength, all their wit so to do; but they were unable, because His hour had not yet come. And not always by the use of that particular phrase, but over and over again our Lord was looking forward toward some consummating, culminating hour which no man could hurry, and which no man could postpone, but which He did perpetually postpone until in the economy of God its set time should have come.

"We must work the works of Him that sent Me while it is day. The night cometh when no man can work"â€â€John 9:4, was one of the profoundest sayings of Jesus in illuminating His own immediate ministry. It had larger values, I will readily admit, but often we miss the profoundest value because we fail to observe the first intention. There was an immediate application of that word, which the Revised Version helps us to appreciate by a change of number in the personal pronoun. "We"â€â€He was speaking of Himself and His disciplesâ€â€"We must work the works of Him that sent Me while it is day; the night cometh," a time of darkness and desolation, "when no man can work," when you must stand aside from cooperation and fellowship with Me. That was the consummating hour to which He looked, the night of darkness that at last would come, in which no man could work, but God alone must work.

Now, in light of that all too rapid examination of a very definite movement manifest in the ministry of our Lord, we come to Gethsemane. The soldiers where about to lay hands on Him and lead Him away to Caiaphas and to Pilate and to Herod, and then to Pilate and to death. Before they did, He said, "This is your hour, and the power of darkness." The night, the hour postponed had arrived, and this was its character. From the sixth hour until the ninth hour there was darkness over all the land. We have no picture of the Son of God during those hours, no record of a word passing His lips. It was the period of the infinite silence, the period of the overwhelming darkness.

What, then, is this that Jesus said concerning the darkness? It was the hour of evil, it was the hour under the dominion of the powers of darkness. In those three hours we see the Savior in the midst of all that which resulted from the action of evil. Not without remarkable suggestiveness did the great apostle Paul speak in a letter written long afterwards of Satan as "prince of the power of the air"â€â€Ephesians 2:2; and not without suggestiveness did he speak of him as presiding over the age as ruler of the darkness. Not without significance did John, the beloved apostle, when opening his gospel and writing concerning Jesus say that in Him was life, and the life was the light of men; that the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness apprehended it not, comprehended it not.

Neither the word apprehended nor the word comprehended means "understood" in this connection. The declaration is not that the darkness did not understand the light, but that the darkness did not extinguish the light. The apostle's declaration at the beginning of the gospel is that the light was always shining, and however deep and dense the darkness, it never succeeded in entirely extinguishing the light. The darkness apprehended it notâ€â€did not put it out. In that very negative declaration of the apostle you are brought face to face with the positive purpose of evil, with the purpose of Satan. What was Satan's supreme desire? To extinguish the Light. "There," said John of Jesus, "was the true Light . . . which lighteth every man, coming into the world"â€â€John 1:9. Satan's purpose was to extinguish that Light.

From the very beginning of the shining of that Light, focused in history by the Incarnation, the one supreme purpose of the enemy was to apprehend it, to comprehend it, to extinguish it, to put it out. And in these three hours of darkness we are brought face to face with the time when all the force of evil was brought to bear on the soul of the Son of God, and all the unutterable intent and purpose of evil wrapped Him about in a darkness that is beyond our comprehension.

In that moment there was material darkness. It was the material symbol of the empire of sin. If the questioning of the heart shall become so material as to inquireâ€â€and I grant you it almost necessarily mustâ€â€whether Satan did in some way actually produce the material darkness, I shall have to reply that I cannot tell, but I believe he did. I believe that by some action of those spiritual antagonisms, the world of principalities and powers, of which the early Christians were far more conscious than we are, and therefore more ready to fight with, under the captaincy and leadership of the prince of the power of the air, there was wrought out in material experience a symbol of the spiritual intention of hell.

I suggest for some quiet hour the study and examination of biblical symbolisms, and especially the use of the figure of darkness in biblical literature. For the purpose of illustration I confine myself entirely to the gospel of Matthew. Listen to these phrases, and immediately you will see how darkness is indeed a symbol of spiritual evil. "The people which sat in darkness"â€â€4:16. "If thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is the darkness!"â€â€6:23. "The sons of the kingdom shall be cast forth into the outer darkness"â€â€8:12. "Cast ye out the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness"â€â€25:30.

Wherever the word occurs in this gospel of Matthew, indeed wherever it occurs in the New Testament, or its equivalent in the Old, it is the symbol of spiritual evil in its issue and in its ultimate. Darkness is the twin sister of death. Death and darkness express the ultimate in evil. And in this hour, when the Lord Himself was passing to death, there was darkness. That material darkness which impressed the evangelists and the multitudes, and changed their attitude of mind toward Him, was but the outward and visible sign of the more mysterious and unfathomable spiritual darkness into the midst of which He had passed. Through the channel of His earthly life, all spiritual things were having material manifestation. The Incarnation itself was but the working out into human observation of the truth concerning God. And now, in the hour of the dying of the Son of God, in that infinite, awful mystery, spiritual evil had its material manifestation in the darkness that settled over all the land. The darkness was of Satan; it was coincident with the ultimate in the suffering of the Son of God.
The Passing of the Darkness

And now, before we ask the most difficult of all questions concerning the transaction of the darkness, in preparation for that inquiry, let us look once more at that at which we have already glanced, the passing of the darkness. In order that we may understand, let us listen again to the four words that passed the lips of the Lord beyond the ninth hour when the darkness was passing away and the light of material day was again breaking through on the green hill, on the cross, and on all those Judaean lands. Notice reverently, then, the four cries that escaped His lips, and divide them, as they most certainly are divided, into two groups, the first two and the second two.

The first cry was the expression of a backward thought. "My God, My God, why didst Thou forsake Me?" It was the call of Jesus as He emerged from the darkness, and from all that happened therein, of which no single word is actually written. It was in itself a revelation, like a flash of light piercing the darkness. "My God, My God, why didst Thou forsake Me?"

In the next word we have the expression of His immediate experience, of that of which in His humanity He became then supremely conscious, "I thirst."

Almost immediately following it we have another expression of His immediate experience, that of which in the essential mystery of His Being He was conscious, "It is finished."

The final word described a forward glance. As the first word beyond the darkness expressed the backward thought, "My God, My God, why didst Thou forsake Me?" the last word expressed a forward confidence, "Father, into Thy hands I commend My spirit."

We have listened to these words simply in order that we may try to be near Him as the darkness passed, and with all reverence, by listening to Him, appreciate something of the thinking of His own mind. A backward thought, "My God, My God, why didst Thou forsake Me?" An immediate experience within human limitations, "I thirst." Spiritual accomplishment, "It is finished." Then the future, the glorious future, "Father into Thy hands I commend My Spirit." Then He died, not of a broken heart, not of human brutality, not of murder by human hands; but of His own volition He yielded up the Ghost, and His Spirit, commended to God, passed to God. The death that saves was not that physical dissolution, but the infinite spiritual mystery of the three hours and the darkness, which being passed, He Himself did say, "It is finished."

In all that remained of the story beyond the hours of darkness, we have no record of any word uttered by the foes of Jesus. They were not present, or they seem not to have been, during that time. Indeed, it is something to be meditated with thankfulness of heart that no rude hand ever touched the body of the dead Christ. After the darkness, beyond the death and the dismissal of the spirit, they were loving disciple hands that took Him from the cross, wrapped Him round, and buried Him, giving Him the temporary resting place of a garden tomb. In death He was wonderfully preserved from all dishonor. The foes of Jesus seem to have withdrawn. Satan seems to have been absent.

Where was Satan? There is no answer in the records of the evangelists, and so I pass on to apostolic writings where I find this written concerning Christ: "Having put off from Himself the principalities and the powers, He made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it" Colossians 2:15. In the deep darkness, and in the midst of the silence, He triumphed over the forces of evil, the principalities and powers, and made a show of them openly by the cross, putting off from Himself all that assaulted Him in, and by, and through the darkness.

As the darkness passed, we again see the attitude of the people. They were arrested, they were touched with pity; there came illumination to them concerning the dying and the dead One, and a great fear possessed them.
The Transaction Within the Darkness

So, finally, we come to the most impossible subject of all, that of the transaction within the darkness. We admit that this can have no final exposition. We admit immediately that any even partial thing that may be said is incomplete. Every aspect of the infinite whole is larger than we can know. Every theory is of value, but all theories fail. This is not the place, nor would it be within the highest purpose of our worship, to attempt to prove that statement. But at least I may be permitted to say that, so far as I know, for 25 years I have been readingâ€â€with ever growing gratitudeâ€â€great books on the Cross, and from each one I have gained something and every one I have at last laid down, saying as I did so, Yes, yes! All that, but more; something not reached, something not spoken!

God cannot finally be expressed in finite terms. "The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner. This is the Lord's doing; it is marvelous in our eyes"â€â€Matthew 21:42. It cannot be explained; it is the perpetual marvel. God must pity any man who thinks he understands this cross completely. God have mercy on any child of God if the day comes in which he has not to sing, "Love so amazing, so divine." When the amazement dies out, it is not that the cross has been analyzed, but that the gazer upon it has become blind.

Yet we may gain some light from the words of the Lord as He emerged from the darkness, and the darkness itself was suggestive. We remember the word we have in Matthew 4:16: "The people which sat in darkness." Into that darkness the Son of God experimentally passed. "If thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!"â€â€6:23. That darkness had passed into His heart, when He said, 'My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?"â€â€27:46. "The sons of the kingdom shall be cast forth into outer darkness"â€â€8:12. The Son of God passed into that outer darkness.

That does not answer the inquiry as to what happened. I have no answer for that. Only this I know, that in that hour of darkness He passed into the place of the ultimate wrestling of evil in actual experience. There is light as I hear the final word, "Father, into Thy hands I commend My spirit"â€â€Luke 23:46, for the word is a word which declares that whatever the transaction was, it was accomplished; that whatever the dying indicated, it was done.

Let us go a little further back, before the darkness, and listen to the chief priests who joined in the hellish clamor that beat on the suffering soul of the dying Savior. Among other things, they said, "He saved others; Himself He cannot save"â€â€Matthew 27:42. That brings me nearer than anything else. Those were wonderful hours of the transmutation of basest things to high and noble things. That was the last taunt of His enemies; it has become the most illuminative word about the cross.

"He saved others; Himself He cannot." So they laughed at Him. Hear it again as a truth sublime and awful: because He saved others, He cannot save Himself. In order to save others He will not save Himself. Said the rabble, and said the rabbis joining in the unholy chorus, "Let Him come down from the cross"â€â€27:42. He did not come down from the cross, He went up from the cross. The great Priest who already had burned the incense in the holiest place bore the symbolic mystery of His own shed blood into the holy place, but before He could do so, He passed into the darkness and abode in the silence three hoursâ€â€a human measurement in order that we may somehow understandâ€â€and in those three hours He could not save Himself. That was because His heart was set upon saving others.

Why could He not save Himself? My question descends to the level of common, everyday human experience and capacity at its highest and its best. He might have saved Himself. He might never have gone to Gethsemane's garden. He might even in Gethsemane's garden have asked for twelve legions of angels, as He Himself did say. He might with one glance of His shining glory have swept the rabble from about the cross and descended to the deliverance of Himself. If He had spoken in terms of power He might have saved Himself. Why, then, was it that He could not save Himself? Because He is God, and because God is love, and love is never satisfied with the destruction of a sinner, but with the saving of a sinner. Love never finds its rest with holiness and righteousness vindicated by the annihilation of the things that oppose. Love will find its rest only when those who have been swept from righteousness and holiness are restored thereto and are remade in the image of the Father, God. That is why.

Yes, but once more. If that be true, then on the ground of the mystery of the compulsion of the ineffable love of God in Christ, could love find no other way? Love could find no other way because sin knows no ending save by that way. The conscience of men demands that, the experience of men demands that. I base the twofold affirmation on the testimonies of the centuries and the millenniums. I base the affirmation on what I know within my own soul of sin.

Someone may say to me, "Cannot God forgive out of pure love?" I shall answer, "If He can, I cannot." If He could forgive me for the wrongs of which I am conscious, and that have left behind them their stain and pollution-if He could forgive me by simply saying, Never mind them, then I cannot so forgive myself. My conscience cries for a cleansing that is more than a sentiment of pity. Somehow, somewhere, in order that I may have forgiveness, there must be tragedy, something mightier than the devilish sin.

I do not know what happened in the darkness, but this I know, that as I have come to the cross and received the suggestions of its material unveiling, I have found my heart, my spirit, my life brought into a realm of healing spices, to the consciousness of the forgiveness of sins. And there is no other way and there is no other gospel of forgiveness.

In the darkness He saved not Himself, but He saved me. He declined to move toward His own deliverance in order that He might loose me from my sin. Out of the darkness has come a light. The word spoken to Cyrus long ago has been fulfilled in the spiritual glory to the Son of God, "I will give thee the treasures of darkness"â€â€Isaiah 45:3. And because fulfilled to the Son of God by the Father who loved Him, and wrought with Him through the mystery of His forsaking, the word has been fulfilled also to the sons of God who are born not of blood, nor of man, nor of the will of the flesh, but of God. He gives us the treasures of darkness.

From the sixth hour until the ninth hour there was darkness over all the land, and from the darkness have come the treasures of pardon, and peace, of power, and of purity.
 
Amen... Darkness is infact a part of evil and the powers that be in the relm of the heavens. But I like how the author stated that "out of this darkness He saved me". This was a great emphasis on darkness and how Jesus was brought before the counsel, how it was proclaimed the hour of darkness. Yet through it He saved me.. That's awesome..

How do you feel about darkness as a form of judgment to the lost sinner? Meaning could darkness be infact a punishment place in hell somewhere?
 
In my study of the Scriptures, I first read the verses speaking of "light" or "dark"/"darkness" in their context, and came to the conclusion that the "light" or "dark/darkness" could be literal or figurative.

"Light" is used many, many more times in scripture than "dark/darkness".

It is pretty obvious when a literal meaning of the words is meant. Such as the Sun, the moon, the stars, fires, lamps etc.

Their figurative use may take a little more careful reading.

"Light" is used as a figure, as a metaphor, many times when speaking of God or Christ's wisdom, righteousness, countenance, words, salvation, etc.

A few examples:
Psalm 119:105, "Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path." RSV.

John 1:4,5, "...in him was life, and the life was the light of all people. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overcome it." RSV.

John 8:12, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness but will have the light of life."

"Light" also represents the message of truth and salvation as preached by the early apostles and all believers:

Paul and Barnabas commanded "to be a light for the Gentiles, so that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth." Acts 13:47 RSV

In other places, "light" is a figure for "truth" or "enlightenment".

Example: 2 Cor. 11:14, "Even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light."

OK, enough about "light". Let's look at "darkness"

In our universe, "darkness" is the opposite of "light." Is that a fair statement? And, we know that God created them, if I can speak of them as "entities".

All of Psalm 139 is speaking of God's omnipotence, but I'll just quote verse 11&12, "If I say, 'surely the darkness shall cover me, and the light around me become night,' even the darkness is not dark to you; the night is as bright as day, for darkness is as light to you."

Anyway, "darkness" is often a metaphor for being ignorant of the truth of God and Christ and all that that means.

Examples: Rom. 1:21, "..for though they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their senseless minds were darkened." RSV

Eph. 4:17,18, "...you must no longer live as the Gentiles live, in the fultility of their minds. They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of their ignorance and hardness of heart,"


As for "darkness" being a part of evil and the powers that are in the realm of the heavens, it could only be as a figure of speech.

All for now, Bick
 
Hi Atonement: I've quoted your first post so I can refer to it more easily to discuss some of your points.

Quote:
Darkness- the absence of light. Darkness existed before the light of creation (Gen1:2). Since darkness was associated with the chaos that existed before creation, it came to be associated with evil, bad luck or afflication (Job 17:12, 21:17). Darkness symbolizes human ignorance of God's will and, thus, is associated with sin (Job 24:13-17). Darkness also describes the condition of those who have not yet seen the light concerning Jesus (John 1:4-5; 12:35; Eph. 5:14). Hating the light will bring condemnation (Col. 1:13; 2Pet. 2:17). Living in extreme darkness describes those who at the end of time have not repented (Rev. 16:10; 18:23). So if darkness is a symbol used for all these, is it no wonder that after the Judgment, God uses this darkness as a form of punishment? After all, a man walked in it, so why not spend eternity in it. Darkness is also a symbol of death (Job 10:21-22; 38:17). Despite the many beliefs of Hell and conscious and unconscious torment. Hell is a place of darkness, a place of weeping, and a place for everlasting punishment. One can not be punished unless living in some form. Darkness would be of no essence if there was no conscious being for it to exist under. So therefore why all this talk about darkness, and outter darkness if it was to be used as a symbol to the unconscious being? No where in Scripture does darkness refer to an unconscious state of mind/being. So it is my belief that this darkness of Hell is a form of punishment to the conscious mind of the lost sinner.
Of course I have provided Scripture on what darkness refers to, for your study. If you believe that darkness refers to an unconscious state of mind/being, I would ask that you prove this to us with Scripture, and quoting verbatim. Thanks Atone
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I certainly agree that "darkness" symbolizes human ignorance of God's will, and most of the other analogies you list.

However, I have found God's Word most meaningful by taking it literally, unless it is obvious that it is figurative in some particular area.

Therefore, I disagree that, just because in our world "light" is "good" and "darkness" is "bad", chaos existed before creation. Let us remember, God is "light" and in him is no darkness at all, 1 John 1:5. Also, Isa. 45:7 says, "I form light and create darkness."

You quote Col.1:13 and 2 Pet.2:17 as verses telling us 'that hating the light will bring condemnation.' I don't arrive at that view from these verses. I know that "walking in darkness" or "sitting in darkness" is figurative for "unbelief", "rejecting the truth of the gospel", etc. And it is true that unbelievers will be condemned at the Great White Throne Judgement described in Rev. 20:11ff.

The plague of darkness described in Rev.16:10 sounds similar to the one sent on Egypt when Moses led out the Israelites, see Exod.21:22,23. All I can get from the verse is it was sent on the beast's kingdom, however big that was. Also, it doesn't say how long the plague lasted, so, any guess would be speculation. It's true, God sending this plague is certainly punishment for the Egyptians and those in the beast's kingdom.

Rev.18:23 merely is setting forth, that since Babylon is destroyed, never to arise again, there will nevermore be a lamp shining in it, among many other things. It has nothing to do with the unrepentent living in extreme darkness. You must read the whole context.

Tying in "darkness" with "hell" could well be another thread. But, I'll give my views on some of your points.

First, using a concordance we can find the Hebrew or Greek words in the manuscripts, and then make a comprehensive study. Nowhere in the Scriptures is "darkness" associated with "hell".

Bick
 
I'll list Gabby's quotes from Matthew for discussion.

Mat 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
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Mat 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast [him] into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
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Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

First, Mat. 8:12. We must put it in context: Jesus had just healed the Gentile centurion's servant, and was amazed at the centurion's faith, exclaiming that 'in no one in Israel have I found such faith'. Then Jesus immediately describes a great feast where Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob will be after being resurrected. This great feast (thought by many to be the wedding feast of Jesus and His bride), will take place on earth in the Messianic kingdom, which is the hope of Israel. Many belivers worthy of attending this banquet will come from east and west.

Since this feast takes place after the tribulation, the end of the age, following the coming again of Jesus the Messiah, there will be Israelites still alive who, though consider themselves "heirs of the kingdom", will be lacking in faith and will not be allowed to be apart of this glorious feast.
I believe it will possibly be at night in a hugh brightly lighted building, or perhaps in the open square of the rebuilt Jerusalem, because those Israelites with little faith will be thrown into the outer darkness, where they will be weeping and gnashing their teeth in bitterness.

Second, Mat. 22:13: This is part of a parable Jesus spoke, and so, as a metaphor what He says could all be considered figurative. But, IMO, it is still teaching a truth, maybe not to the crowds, but to His disciples.
Let's look at it starting at verse 1: It is a parable to illustrate something about the kingdom of the heavens. A king is giving a wedding banquet for his son. His servants are to call those who had already been invited. But they would not come. Since the wedding was ready and those who refused are deemed not worthy, the servants are sent to the streets to invite all, good and bad, to the feast.

Now, an aside: from what I've read, a Jewish wedding was a special occasion and all the guests were provided wedding garments.

Aftrer the doors were obviously shut, the king noticed a man without a wedding robe, and asked him how he got in without a robe. The man was speechless (for obviously he had slipped in). The king then had the attendants bind the man hand and foot and throw him into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
I interpret this parable as prophetic of a literal event, the wedding feast, and any who try to slip in without being chosen, will be bound and cast into the outer darkness away from the lighted banquet hall.\
I understand the unbelieving Scribes, Pharisees, Priests are those who think they will automatically be apart of the kingdom, but will be cast out.

All for now, Bick
 
Bick said:
I understand the unbelieving Scribes, Pharisees, Priests are those who think they will automatically be apart of the kingdom, but will be cast out.

I suppose that would qualify for the "wicked servant" label. That is the phrase that I have been chewing on. I tend to look at it in black and white. either someone is saved, or they are not. Wicked servant could be cults who think that they are serving the Lord as well.

Thanks for your insight Bick. :-D
 
Hi Gabby, thanks for your comments.

I need to give my understanding of the third Matthew quote, 25:30:

Doing careful reading in chapts. 24 and 25, we notice Jesus told many parables to which the kingdom of the heavens was like. So this gives us the setting: they are trues set forth as principles then, and in the Messianic kingdom to come. Remember, Jesus 'came unto his own' and preached 'the kingdom of the heavens was at hand'.

In this parable, I understand 'his servants' to be the spiritual leaders of Israel who should be using their talents (something valuable...what ever it is) to guide the multitudes to the truth, namely: "the righteous shall live by faith", not by rote obedience to all the laws of Moses, as well as to the traditions the rabiis and scribes have added.

Evidently, after the great tribulation, there will be Israelites who survived, somehow hidden away and protected from the persecution of the anti-christ.
When the Son of Man comes with all his angels with him, he will sit on the throne of his glory (verse 25:31). It is my belief that when Jerusalem is rebuilt and the Messiah Jesus will sit on his throne somewhere in the midst, his glory will be like the Shekinah Glory that was in Israel's temple centuries ago. I can see the whole city lit by His glory.

What I'm leading up to is, the wicked servant in this parable will be cast into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. I would guess there would be many others with him.

As a final thought, the evil servant evidently didn't deserve death, but he will not be enjoying the blessings of the kingdom.

Thank you, Bick
 
So...
what are your thoughts on the story of the ten virgins? There were five foolish virgins that went out to buy oil, and the door was shut, and they were told by the Lord that he did not know them. The story simply says that the door was shut.

Mat 25:10-12 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
 
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Didn't I post something about the ten virgins? Another thought about it. Could five represent the church, and the other five represent Israel?



May God bless, golfjack
 
Re: reply

golfjack said:
Didn't I post something about the ten virgins? Another thought about it. Could five represent the church, and the other five represent Israel?



May God bless, golfjack

How so?
 
Hi Gabby, I feel I should comment on these two verses you quoted:

Mat 24:48ff, "But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; the Lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour he is not aware of, and shall cut him asunder with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." KJV

I quoted more verses to get the context. In this parable, the evil servant beats up on his fellow servants, and lives a life of debauchery. Also, as this is also a picture of the time of the end of the age, when Jesus warns his disciples and the multitudes to be ready for His coming, which will be as a thief in the night, this evil servant was not looking for him. And so, the Lord 'cut him assunder' (killed him), judging him worthy of death.

Quote:
In Luke He is simply speaking to the person that asked this question in verse 23.
Luke 13:23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved?...

Again, in this context Jesus is likening the kingdom of God to the different parables. And as he was teaching, some one asked him, "Lord, are there few that be saved?" I understand "saved", in this context, to mean "to see, or enter the kingdom of God"; For that is the hope of Israel and what Jesus was preaching. And, as far as the generation of Israelites during Jesus earthly ministry, only a few "are saved", become his true disciples.

I'm not sure what the population of the portion of Israel He preached in was; it could have been maybe 2 million. Anyway, the apostle Paul said that after His resurrection, Jesus appeared to the eleven and upwards of 500. A relatively few, compared to all Israel.

Well, I'm sure there may be others who disagree, but that's what makes sense to me.

The subject of "hell" is probably covered on some thread already. If not, one can be started.

Thank you, Bick
 
Bick said:
The subject of "hell" is probably covered on some thread already. If not, one can be started.

Thank you, Bick

Um...I am thinking that it was mentioned somewhere.... :-D

I am sorry, I completely missed posting the question I had on my mind.

The five go out to buy oil. They come back, and the door is shut.

I am assuming that this door is shut for all eternity. They are on the other side of the door for all eternity? Is this other side of the door the "outer darkness"? Do they eventually come before the Great White throne judgment?

The story just sort of leaves them there on the other side of the door.
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The story of the wedding feast shows someone there that does not belong and is thrown out.
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This place of outer darkness seems to be something different than hell.
 
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The evil servant is a spurious minister of the Gospel, a professor of religion who possesses nothing. This servant took on himself the name of Christ, but he was a hypocrite. He professed to believe Scriptures and its teachings, but in fact he denied them. For one thing, he was skeptical that Christ would return. In his heart he said, My Lord delayeth his coming. This is a real clue to his downfall. He doubted the truth of the Lord's return. He had many glib expectations that quite satisfied him as to what the Lord meant when He said He would come again. He especially took issue with those who believed literally the Lord's warning in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Some teach that Christ returned in A. D. 70 at the destruction of Jerusalem, confusing the 2 events as set forth in Luke 21:20-28. Others declared that Jesus returned on the day of Pentecost, whereas the Lord plainly said that the Holy Spirit was another Comforter who would come if He went away ( John 16:7). Still others teach that the Lord's Second Coming is His coming into a person's life, or as formal churches teach, when a man is baptized or process religion.

The abandonment of the truth of the Lord's imminent return results in apostasy. Little by little the false servant departs from the faith. He may actually become a slave to the vices of the wicked. These things lead into further sin until he fulfills the picture against which the Lord has warned. The evil servant may assume a place of auuthority over the brethern. This deadly spirit of ecclesiasticism seeks to enforce its will upon others. Men are told what they must do, where they must go; they are taught to lean upon the arm of flesh rather than upon God. This is the situation in much of the nominal church today. Those in power lust for more power. And thus is God's plan for the headship of Christ made of no effect.

Denial of the truth of Christ's Second Coming gradually results in the corruption of doctrine and practice. What finally happens to this evil servant? We are told that the Lord comes in a day when he looketh not for him and he is cut asunder and his portion is with the hypocrites. In other words he is lost forever. The parable ends with that servant's terrible awakening, and his fruitless remorse. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


May God bless, golfjack
 
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