Dead Faith - Dead Works & Hope

[Thunderz7]

I'm not looking for a grace vs. works thread, I'm sure there are many here.
I would like thoughts on dead works and faith being dead.

The writer of Hebrews speaks twice of dead works
Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

James makes several refferences to dead faith.
James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
YHWH gave every man a/the measure of faith;
is it something that can die?
Can it be born again?

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
What part does hope play in this?

 

[Vic C.]

Today, in service, I was thinking...

If faith without works is dead, then works without faith has no salvific quality whatsoever.

 

[dadof10]

Today, in service, I was thinking...

If faith without works is dead, then works without faith has no salvific quality whatsoever.

 

[Adullam]

Today, in service, I was thinking...

If faith without works is dead, then works without faith has no salvific quality whatsoever.

Not exactly. If faith without works is dead, then this shows the importance of works. God looks at the heart. Good works come from the heart.

[10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

A Christian must bear fruit if he is truly connected to the life-giving vine. This produces the works prepared in advance. There is an "active" participation with God going on here.

But there is also a "passive" participation with God. Like the sheep in the Mat 25 judgment where they didn't know the good they were doing. "Let not your right hand know what your left hand is doing..."

A dead work is calculated, pre-meditated. One who does a dead work is looking at the personal benefit of the said action.

But there is a compassion for others, a radical hospitality, a sacrificial working for others that exists among all of God's creation.

Jer 22:15 "Does it make you a king
to have more and more cedar?
Did not your father have food and drink?
He did what was right and just,
so all went well with him.

16 He defended the cause of the poor and needy,
and so all went well.
Is that not what it means to know me?"
declares the LORD.

Here God is justifying a man as knowing HIm when he did what pleased the Lord.

The equation works both ways.

Remember when the disciples would forbid others from preaching Christ. But Jesus said. "They who are not against us, are for us."

So it is with good works. God owns everything. He is the God over all not just certain people. So God will reap where He has not "sown". He will justify the righteous. We all have the capacity to do what is humanly possible. Do we do even this?

 

[dadof10]

Today, in service, I was thinking...

If faith without works is dead, then works without faith has no salvific quality whatsoever.

Not exactly. If faith without works is dead, then this shows the importance of works. God looks at the heart. Good works come from the heart.

[10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

A Christian must bear fruit if he is truly connected to the life-giving vine. This produces the works prepared in advance. There is an "active" participation with God going on here.

But there is also a "passive" participation with God. Like the sheep in the Mat 25 judgment where they didn't know the good they were doing. "Let not your right hand know what your left hand is doing..."

A dead work is calculated, pre-meditated. One who does a dead work is looking at the personal benefit of the said action.

But there is a compassion for others, a radical hospitality, a sacrificial working for others that exists among all of God's creation.

Jer 22:15 "Does it make you a king
to have more and more cedar?
Did not your father have food and drink?
He did what was right and just,
so all went well with him.

16 He defended the cause of the poor and needy,
and so all went well.
Is that not what it means to know me?"
declares the LORD.

Here God is justifying a man as knowing HIm when he did what pleased the Lord.

The equation works both ways.

Remember when the disciples would forbid others from preaching Christ. But Jesus said. "They who are not against us, are for us."

So it is with good works. God owns everything. He is the God over all not just certain people. So God will reap where He has not "sown". He will justify the righteous. We all have the capacity to do what is humanly possible. Do we do even this?

I'm not sure how you are disagreeing with Vic. Do you think that works have a "salvific quality" without faith?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Re: Dead Faith = NO faith

"YHWH gave every man a/the measure of faith;"

Better stated - God gives us "Measured", or "dispensed" faith - in contrast with Jesus who's said to have Faith "without measure", or "unlimited" faith.

That DOESN'T indicate that every man has "Identical" faith - only that faith is "Metered" to us according to our need/circumstances.

"is it something that can die?"

Sure - if you refuse to ACT on the faith you have, it'll die soon enough.

"Can it be born again?"

"Born" isn't an accurate word to use. Faith isn't "Born - it's a gift that's given. God does give "second chances", so no reason to believe that faith wouldn't be gifted again after repentance, and restoration.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
What part does hope play in this?

No part - except as the personal desire in the issue. Since, by definition, "Faith" stands in temporary substitution for something that you desire, but DON'T POSSES yet, then you "hope to see the thing you desire", and the FAITH (if it exists at all) is the SUBSTANCE - the TANGIBLE REALITY of the thing you desire.

If there's only "Hope" - then you really HAVE NO IDEA whether or not you will "get" your desire.

If there's FAITH, then you ALREADY POSSESS the object of your desire - even though it's NOT THERE - yet.

WHEN you receive it, then both "Faith", and "Hope" disappear - no longer being required for anything any longer.

 

[Logos57]

IMO the faith of a true believer can never die, for the work of faith is love.
I Thessalonians 1:3
Remembering without ceasing your works of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;
I truly believe that this verse and Galatians 5:6 refer to love being the work of Faith. Remember Jesus commands us to love one another, (John 15:12). But when we backslide are faith and love will both wane. So I think real faith, just needs to be renew in times like this (Psalms 51:10).

 

[Packrat]

I'm not looking for a grace vs. works thread, I'm sure there are many here.
I would like thoughts on dead works and faith being dead.

The writer of Hebrews speaks twice of dead works
Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

James makes several refferences to dead faith.
James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
YHWH gave every man a/the measure of faith;
is it something that can die?
Can it be born again?

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
What part does hope play in this?

I explained it once in this way:

What I finally settled on after my examination of the Scriptures is that faith in God's payment for our sins is the only thing *intrinsically* necessary to be saved. Your works can bring you to accept salvation, but they will never be responsible for your salvation. Some ways that they can bring you to accept salvation are:

1. You can do your best to try to earn your way into an eternal relationship with God, but if you've got a brain in your head you're going to realize you fall short.
2. You can accept God's grace with open arms. But if you start committing adultery, murdering, etc. you're going to start wondering whether God even wants to save you or even if there is a god. By living a life that shuts the Way out, you cannot walk down the right path. By living a life that shuts the Truth out, you will deceive yourself. By living a life that shuts the Life out, you will die. Whoever shuts out the Way, the Truth and the Life (John 14:6) when he knocks invites the Father of Lies in so that he deceives himself from the truth - the truth that there is a God and that he loves you and longs to save you. In doing so you die in your ignorance and self-deceit, unsaved.

Long story short: you can get a free ride on the band wagon, but Satan is always trying to pull you off and throw you down.

There is a saying that goes like this, "Freedom isn't free." Satan is always examining our armor to find openings that his darts can pierce through to bring us to destruction. The man who loves his life will put on the full armor of God which the Enemy's darts cannot pierce.

In this way the truth that God saves will never be taken from him and his salvation will be assured. Again, God has given you a "free ticket" to eternal bliss with him. But unless you guard yourself from the deception of the Enemy you will die, having been deceived in your ignorance (Hosea 4:6). This is the meaning of the saying that "Freedom isn't free."

The meaning of James 2:25-26 is that our faith dies with the absence of righteous deeds in the same way that a body absent of a spirit dies. Faith is our body and good deeds are our spirit. A body bereft of a spirit cannot be returned to life until that spirit is replaced. After all, God gave life to Adam by placing a spirit within him. He brings to life those bodies that have died by placing a spirit within them again.

In the same way our faith (illustrated as a body) dies when our good deeds leave. How this happens often manifests itself in doubt, but the end result is the same. Let us walk near the God of Truth with righteous deeds so that he may sustain us with truth which leads to life.

 

[pstmighty]

There is a GREAT difference between FAITH, BELIEVING AND HOPE. The trouble is, this three operate by the same principles and so, many don't know the difference. This is where you find many christian saying I know the bible, I believe the scriptures, I have been confessing and confessing but nothing has changed ,why has my life not changed!!!