Discern This Altar Call Given After This Message

[Enow]

"It is not by going to church every Sunday that is going to save you. It is not by keeping the Ten Commandments that is going to save you. It is all those that call upon the name of the Lord."

Now that sounds like a message of the Good News, right?

Now we move on to the altar call which followed immediately after that message:

"If you are not sure you are saved: come forward and make a commitment to follow Christ."

What is the meaning of that altar call? Does it defer from the Gospel message that was just stated prior? How so? Is that the response someone should make if they are not sure they are saved?

Who is the altar call given towards? Believers or non-believers?

After a message like that, how should the altar call be given to be consistent?

What would you say to someone after stating how you are saved and then asked for what response to this inquiry: "If you are not sure you are saved.." ?

 

[childeye]

I'm never sure I'm saved until I hear Jesus say it. I would answer every altar call if put that way. Hence I ignore the implications and take it with a grain of salt.

 

[Rageprophet]

Its bad to make a commitment to follow Christ?

 

[childeye]

Its bad to make a commitment to follow Christ?

I think this thread is about discerning the particular altar call described above in post 1.

 

[Enow]

I'm never sure I'm saved until I hear Jesus say it. I would answer every altar call if put that way. Hence I ignore the implications and take it with a grain of salt.

Jesus said it so you can be sure.

John 3:14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

The fact you believe is a work of God Himself in having saved you.

John 6:44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

In regards to the OP:

To the question of the altar call: if you are not sure you are saved: if you had called upon the name of the Lord to be saved, then believe Him that you are saved.

John 6:38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[Enow]

Its bad to make a commitment to follow Christ?

It is if a believer is making that commitment to follow Christ to get the assurance he needs that he is saved.

That altar call would be the flip flop of the message that was earlier given. In other words, by making that commitment to follow Christ to have assurance for one's salvation, it would mean then that one has to go to church every Sunday to be saved: one has to keep the Ten commandments and more to be saved because His standard is higher than the works of the law:

If you consider all that entails to keep that commitment to follow Christ for the assurance of one's salvation: then by that commitment is the knowledge of sin and thus no assurance of salvation. No one is going to be justified by it nor made righteous by it and certainly no one is going to get any assurance of trying to follow Christ by the letter of keeping that commitment, because they cannot live the christian life by the religious flesh.

We have been reconciled by God through faith in Jesus Christ: we now have a relationship based on trust: not just for our salvation as Jesus Christ is the Saviour: but for living the christian life because Jesus Christ is also our Good Shepherd: therefore the scripture knew what they were saying when it is written that "the just shall live by faith" as we are to live that reconciled relationship with God by faith in the Son of God and all His promises to us in helping us to live the christian life.

So why bother looking to oneself to see how serious he or she is when it is not about us anymore: as we are to be witnesses of the Son, of God's New Covenant to us, that He will do this, thereby declaring to sinners our hope in God: and not in ourselves.

How else would sinners be converted to God unless they see our hope that we have in Christ Jesus?

How else can religious believers see the futility of trying to make themselves good so that they can rest in Him and all His promises to us as our hope and our confidence is in the Son of God to finish what He has started in us to His glory?

May God cause the increase and set all religious believers free from their self proclaiming commitments and promises to rest in Him so that the world can see their faith in Jesus Christ working in their lives to help them live the christian life by His grace,

 

[Rageprophet]

It is if a believer is making that commitment to follow Christ to get the assurance he needs that he is saved.

That altar call would be the flip flop of the message that was earlier given. In other words, by making that commitment to follow Christ to have assurance for one's salvation, it would mean then that one has to go to church every Sunday to be saved: one has to keep the Ten commandments and more to be saved because His standard is higher than the works of the law:

If you consider all that entails to keep that commitment to follow Christ for the assurance of one's salvation: then by that commitment is the knowledge of sin and thus no assurance of salvation. No one is going to be justified by it nor made righteous by it and certainly no one is going to get any assurance of trying to follow Christ by the letter of keeping that commitment, because they cannot live the christian life by the religious flesh.

We have been reconciled by God through Jesus Christ: we now have a relationship based on trust: not just for our salvation as Jesus Christ is the Saviour: but for living the christian life because Jesus Christ is also our Good Shepherd: therefore the scripture knew what they were saying when it is written that "the just shall live by faith" as we are to live that reconciled relationship with God by faith in the Son of God and all His promises to us in helping us to live the christian life.

So why bother looking to oneself to see how serious he or she is when it is not about us anymore: as we are to be witnesses of the Son, of God's New Covenant to us, that He will do this, thereby declaring to sinners our hope in God: and not in ourselves.

How else would sinners be converted to God unless they see our hope that we have in Christ Jesus?

How else can religious believers see the futility of trying to make themselves good so that they can rest in Him and all His promises to us as our hope and our confidence is in the Son of God to finish what He has started in us to His glory?

May God cause the increase and set all religious believers free from their self proclaiming commitments and promises to rest in Him so that the world can see their faith in Jesus Christ working in their lives to help them live the christian life by His grace,

By this line of reasoning Jesus was out of line when he said go and sin no more.

 

[childeye]

Jesus said it so you can be sure.

John 3:14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

The fact you believe is a work of God Himself in having saved you.

John 6:44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

In regards to the OP:

To the question of the altar call: if you are not sure you are saved: if you had called upon the name of the Lord to be saved, then believe Him that you are saved.

John 6:38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

So where does it say my name specifically indicating I am saved? Moreover Jesus said, many will say, Lord, Lord didn't we do great works in your name? There will be much gnashing of teeth. I feel more comfortable hoping I am chosen than setting myself up for a fall. Note the Prodigal son came back with the Spirit of a servant.

 

[Enow]

By this line of reasoning Jesus was out of line when he said go and sin no more.

If you make a commitment or a promise to never sin again, then by the deeds of the law you will not be justified by trying to keep it because you will sin.

If you look at why Jesus came: we cannot keep the law: we are having trouble walking as God would have us walk: and thus we cannot save ourselves as we need the Saviour:

Then we see that the same hope and faith in Him for our salvation has to be the same hope and faith in Him to help us live the christian life.

That is why little children can freely come to Him because all they can do is trust the Lord.

Did not Jesus taught us this prayer?

Matthew 6:9After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. 10Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. 11Give us this day our daily bread. 12And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. 13And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

So do we trust God to lead us not into temptation and deliver us from the evil one or do we think we need to resort to our own power by the deeds of the law in making us not to sin by making commitments and promises to do so?

All relationships are based on trust: we either take God at His word: the Lord Jesus Christ: that He will help us to follow Him by faith in the Son of God in us or we are looking to ourselves to do it by the deeds of the law which is not of faith.

Galatians 3:1O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

4Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. 5He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

2 Corinthians 11:19For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise. 20For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour you, if a man take of you, if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face.

Galatians 5: 1Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. 2Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. 5For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. 7Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? 8This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you. 9A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. 10I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.

If circumcision is the smallest letter of the law and those that do it, must do the whole law: then making a promise or a commitment to do God's work in them to make themselves follow Him is the biggest letter of the law and thus required to do the whole law.

Only God can do God's work in us. Either we believe that Jesus will do this in helping us live the christian life and that is how we are following Him as we are trusting Him to be our Good Shepherd as well as our Saviour or we do not.

John 6:28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Philippians 1:6Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: ...9And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment; 10That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ. 11Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.
So the person giving that altar call was really hindering the believer's run with Christ. May He set them free to run by faith in Him again.

 

[Enow]

So where does it say my name specifically indicating I am saved? Moreover Jesus said, many will say, Lord, Lord didn't we do great works in your name? There will be much gnashing of teeth. I feel more comfortable hoping I am chosen than setting myself up for a fall. Note the Prodigal son came back with the Spirit of a servant.

Jesus spoke by His word the conditions by which one is saved:

The reference you have used is in regards to those that have gone astray. Do note that not one said, "But Lord, did we not put our trust in You? But Lord, did we not believe that it was your righteousness that will bring us Home?"

It was all about what they claimed that they did in His name as if that earned them favoured to be received. Can they really cast out devils? No. Jesus said that those kind cannot come out except by prayer and fasting: meaning submitting a request to God and denying yourself as having any part in casting out that devil: and in regards to prophesy: did not God put the words on their mouths to speak? In regards to doing woderful works in His name: only God can do God's work in us and in those around us.

This is the only reason why we would be received so may we trust the Lord to keep the foot of pride away from us.

1 Corinthians 1:29That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

But that was not the work of inquity that I believe had them left behind. Matthew 7:13-16 & Luke 13:24 both signify that by broadening the way in approaching God the Father other than by way of the Son is the work of iniquity and by narrowing the way back to focussing on the Son: in keeping their eyes on the Bridegroom in relating to God the Father is the way to avoid that iniquity.

John 14:6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.....13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

By keeping to the commandment of His invitation is how we get to know God the Father: deviate from that and that would be the work of iniquity by which He would say that He never knew us.

John 10: 1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. ....7Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. 8All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. 9I am the door:

Wayward believers are believing every spirit and because of signs and lying wonders, are preaching another spirit to receive, believing that to be the Holy Spirit again and again and again: thus climbing up another way other than the Son when in actuality, they are departing from faith and giving heed to seducing spirits and engaging in doctrines of devils.

1 Timothy 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

But Jesus will go after His lost sheep as the foolish virgins will have oil for their lamps and the prodigal son will return because he is still son but they both would have lost out on their first inheritance at the Marriage Supper.

John 10:14I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. 15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

All those that believe have been bought with a price and sealed as His: but not every believer will be ready which is why the call is given out to every one that name the name of Christ to depart from iniquity: but even those left behind will testify as vessels unto dishonour in God's House of the power of God in salvation which is in Christ Jesus for all those that believe.

Link to 2 Timothy 2nd chapter provided for confirmation that He will lose none, including the ones that have gone astray.

2 Timothy 2 KJV - Thou therefore my son be strong in the - Bible Gateway

John 6:38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[Saltwater]

"It is not by going to church every Sunday that is going to save you. It is not by keeping the Ten Commandments that is going to save you. It is all those that call upon the name of the Lord."

Now that sounds like a message of the Good News, right?

Now we move on to the altar call which followed immediately after that message:

"If you are not sure you are saved: come forward and make a commitment to follow Christ."

What is the meaning of that altar call? Does it defer from the Gospel message that was just stated prior? How so? Is that the response someone should make if they are not sure they are saved?

Who is the altar call given towards? Believers or non-believers?

After a message like that, how should the altar call be given to be consistent?

What would you say to someone after stating how you are saved and then asked for what response to this inquiry: "If you are not sure you are saved.." ?

Hello Enow,

I’ll reply to some of your questions first & then talk about my personal experience.

Now that sounds like a message of the Good News, right?
No it doesn’t!! (see personal experience comments below for further details)

What is the meaning of that altar call?
Not much that I can see – I think it would be better to break the altar call up into two parts – 1. If you know you are not saved come forth & someone will explain the Gospel message to you & 2. For Christians, if you know you need to fix things up in your relationship with God come forth for some prayer (sensitivity in wording is required when calling forth Christians who feel they are backslidden).

Does it defer from the Gospel message that was just stated prior? How so?
No, as I do not consider the message was really a gospel message.

Who is the altar call given towards? Believers or non-believers?
See personal experience comments below.

Personal Experience Comments
The Gospel message/altar call is an issue I preached on in our church back in late June while sharing my testimony. I move in Pentecostal circles & for the last few years the nuts & bolts portion of the “gospel†message shared from the pulpits has sounded like this – ‘God has a wonderful plan/purpose for your life so come forward & make a commitment to follow Christ/call upon the name of Jesus.’

I talked about the following scriptures in sharing the Gospel.
In Acts 20:20-21 20 how I kept back nothing that was helpful, but proclaimed it to you, and taught you publicly and from house to house, 21 testifying to Jews, and also to Greeks, repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul had two main points to share in his message for people’s salvation – repentance towards God & faith in Jesus Christ.

Repentance
For the importance & need for repentance I used Luke 13:1-5

2 And Jesus answered and said to them, “Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? 3 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.â€

emphasising that unless a person repents they will perish.

Faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ
I then used 1Cor15:1-7

1Cor15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. 6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. 7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. 8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.

To emphasise what the faith towards Jesus from Acts20:21 involved. I encouraged the congregation to play it safe when sharing the Gospel by including the need for repentance as part of their message & if necessary to explain what repentance is.

For way too long now we have seen the ‘God has a wonderful plan for your life’ message produce some very ‘weak conversions’ where the people responding just did not ‘light up’ like we have seen with some real conversions over the decades where the ‘full’ gospel was shared.

When I read some of the Gospel sermons from earlier in the century the difference in content to the modern stuff is very noticeable.

PS – note that this is presented from an Arminian/Wesleyan approach to sharing the Gospel.

 

[Enow]

Hi Saltwater,

Thanks for sharing:

I am not sure if presenting an easy gospel is the oversight: as some may point out in any evangelical outreach: like for example: leading a new believer in taking these methodonical steps in how one is to be saved: I believe the oversight of any evangelical ministry is looking for a quick fix: some even resorting to an apostate rudimentary religious guantlet as if that will solve everything in forcing them to follow Jesus on their own by keeping that commitment to follow Him thus getting out of the responsibility of the commandment Jesus gave His disciples to make disciples of other believers in teaching them what He has taught them.

If we look at Acts 10:34-48 at the link below and see the very words Peter had spoken: there was no altar call: no confessing with one's mouth yet: no baptism by water yet: and yet these Gentile believers heard this message below, believed, and thereby received the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 10:34-48 KJV - Then Peter opened his mouth and said Of - Bible Gateway

I am inclined to believe that this particular repentance is one of turning away from unbelief and believe in order to be saved.

Matthew 21:34For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.

Mark 1:15And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Acts 19:4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

So this repentance is an act of believing on Jesus Christ.

Asking a sinner to repent of his sins when currently they have dominion over him, is denying him this hope in believing what He came to do:

1 John 3: 8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

So repentance is really one of repenting of unbelief as believing on Jesus Christ is how one repents: it is up to the disciples to make disciples of other believers by teaching them to continue in His words thereby getting to know Him and the power of His resurrection when sin has no more dominion over their lives that they would be a slave to them as they shall be enabled by Him to follow Him by keeping the faith and by loving others which includes telling them the truth.

We see how one is saved by hearing the Gospel preach and believing in Him and thereby receiving the baptism with the Holy Ghost and are saved: but what we fail to see today is the discipling of those new believers to continue in His words in learning of Him so that their love of Him may abound yet more and more in the knowledge of Him. Learning of His words: His promises: is how any believer can apply their faith in taking Him at His word in how they live the christian life.

The just shall live by faith.... in the Son of God in them and all His promises to us: not just for eternal life, but for living the christian life in following Him.

That is how we grow in our relationship with God when we trust Him at His Word.

Anyway: just sharing on what I see repentance to mean in regards to believing in Jesus Christ and that it is up to the disciples to teach new believers repentance of sin by looking to the author and finisher of their faith to help them lay every weight and sin aside so they can run that race well in following Jesus Christ by faith.

 

[childeye]

=Enow;569678]Jesus spoke by His word the conditions by which one is saved:

The reference you have used is in regards to those that have gone astray. Do note that not one said, "But Lord, did we not put our trust in You? But Lord, did we not believe that it was your righteousness that will bring us Home?"

Yes I get your point and valid it is, yet this does not change the fact I may not see where I have taken God for granted.

It was all about what they claimed that they did in His name as if that earned them favoured to be received. Can they really cast out devils? No. Jesus said that those kind cannot come out except by prayer and fasting: meaning submitting a request to God and denying yourself as having any part in casting out that devil: and in regards to prophesy: did not God put the words on their mouths to speak? In regards to doing woderful works in His name: only God can do God's work in us and in those around us.

Again well said and your point is well made.

This is the only reason why we would be received so may we trust the Lord to keep the foot of pride away from us.

He could keep the foot of pride away from whomever He wills to. That does not mean it will be me. In saying that I trust in Him, I am saying it might not be me and that's okay if it is His will. I have not seen the wedding garments. Some may be beautiful and some may be ugly. Then again they may all be beautiful. Whatever God has made is right, and He knows what is right for me better than I do.

But that was not the work of inquity that I believe had them left behind. Matthew 7:13-16 & Luke 13:24 both signify that by broadening the way in approaching God the Father other than by way of the Son is the work of iniquity and by narrowing the way back to focussing on the Son: in keeping their eyes on the Bridegroom in relating to God the Father is the way to avoid that iniquity.

I think the broad way is where many truths are counted equally valid for the sake of peace, while in the narrow path all must conform to one Truth.

By keeping to the commandment of His invitation is how we get to know God the Father: deviate from that and that would be the work of iniquity by which He would say that He never knew us.

I agree with your assessment here.

Wayward believers are believing every spirit and because of signs and lying wonders, are preaching another spirit to receive, believing that to be the Holy Spirit again and again and again: thus climbing up another way other than the Son when in actuality, they are departing from faith and giving heed to seducing spirits and engaging in doctrines of devils.

Yes we agree again.

2Speaking lies in hypocrisy;

A key to discerning Truth. All Lies end in hypocrisy. Show me my hypocrisy and I will see my error.

But Jesus will go after His lost sheep as the foolish virgins will have oil for their lamps and the prodigal son will return because he is still son but they both would have lost out on their first inheritance at the Marriage Supper.

Perhaps. God has not revealed this to me. Please elaborate further if able. What is whispered in secret should be shouted from the rooftops. What is spoken in riddles should be made clear if this is the time.

All those that believe have been bought with a price and sealed as His: but not every believer will be ready which is why the call is given out to every one that name the name of Christ to depart from iniquity: but even those left behind will testify as vessels unto dishonour in God's House of the power of God in salvation which is in Christ Jesus for all those that believe.

Are you saying it is iniquity to not know I am saved but only hope I am saved? Are you speaking about rapture or salvation?

Note: I am afraid to say and think I am one chosen. It is not because of doubt in God's Holiness, but scripture that says, the righteous will say, when did we see you naked and clothe you, when did we see you hungry and feed you? Please define for me the term iniquity so as to understand how you apply it.

 

[tessiewebb]

"It is not by going to church every Sunday that is going to save you. It is not by keeping the Ten Commandments that is going to save you. It is all those that call upon the name of the Lord."

Now that sounds like a message of the Good News, right?

Now we move on to the altar call which followed immediately after that message:

"If you are not sure you are saved: come forward and make a commitment to follow Christ."

What is the meaning of that altar call? Does it defer from the Gospel message that was just stated prior? How so? Is that the response someone should make if they are not sure they are saved?

Who is the altar call given towards? Believers or non-believers?

After a message like that, how should the altar call be given to be consistent?

What would you say to someone after stating how you are saved and then asked for what response to this inquiry: "If you are not sure you are saved.." ?

What a great example of tradition interfering with the Truth, enow! How are we going to sort out "man's doctrines" from the truth when we are bombarded by contradictory messages like this one? Well, for one thing we can read forum posts! I'd be willing to say that if you mentioned the inconsistency to the ones who gave the msg and the altar call they would go blank on you. Might give 'em something to think about though.

 

[Enow]

A key to discerning Truth. All Lies end in hypocrisy. Show me my hypocrisy and I will see my error.

I am sure every believer have doubts, and they come in different forms, but as we do live in hope: there is something we should say in what we know: and I realize even that is done by the grace of God and help through His Word.

To confess that Jesus Christ is the Saviour and yet are not sure they are saved: is kind of hypocritical. We live by faith and not by sight: we live in hope in Him: but the idea of stating our belief that Jesus is the Saviour can only be done by one that acknowledges that He has saved them in order to be witnesses of Him that He is the Saviour and the Good News to man.

These dounts does not negate the reality for all those that believe as He dwells within us: the fact that no man can come to the Son unless the Father draws him proves that when a person believes: he is doing so by a work of God: and thus are saved. Having doubts later on does not negate salvation. It just means we should go to His words for the assurances we need in Him.

Perhaps. God has not revealed this to me. Please elaborate further if able. What is whispered in secret should be shouted from the rooftops. What is spoken in riddles should be made clear if this is the time.

In John 10th chapter: Jesus began about those that are His sheep that follow His voice from those that do not, but follow a stranger's voice in climbing up another way: (which I discern by His grace as going after the "Holy Spirit" to receive again and by a sign just to receive tongues that comes with no interpretation which would be akin to a stranger's voice for climbing up another way ).

John 10:1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. 4And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 5And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

Believers will know that any spirit that tries to come inbetween them and the Son is a thief, and is not the real Holy Spirit at all.

John 10:7Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. 8All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. 9I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. 10The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

And stealing the focus from the Bridegroom is what seducing spirits will do.

Now here is where He acknowledges His sheep that follows His voice and then He speaks of the other sheep not of that fold as they were the ones that followed a stranger's voice by climbing up another way and thus they shall be made to hear His voice and be of the one fold and one shepherd.

John 10:14I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. 15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Unless the Lord does it sooner, that is what will happen at the pre tribulational rapture event on those wayward believers left behind.

Are you saying it is iniquity to not know I am saved but only hope I am saved?

Depends on your wording: is Jesus Christ the Saviour? Yes: Am I saved? Yes because He said so just by believing in Him. Do we live in hope? Yes. So do I know I am saved? Yes. Can I prove I am saved? By confessing with my mouth the Lord Jesus Christ and believing that God has raised Him from the dead that by His words, I can prove I am saved. More proof? His tomb is empty. He has risen. If He had not risen: then our preaching and our hope would be in vain.

Are you speaking about rapture or salvation?

All those that believe initially are saved: doubts will come: some will be even overthrown in their faith, erring from the truth, but guess what? They are still saved: having His seal.

2 Timothy 2:10- KJV - Therefore I endure all things for the - Bible Gateway

God is going to judge His House first ( 1 Peter 4:17-19 ): that is why the call to every one that name the name of Christ to depart from iniquity as in His House there are vessels unto honour and vessels unto dishonour. This judgment on the House of God will take place at the pre tribulational rapture event because of the prophesy that there will be a falling away from the faith to which point when Christ appears, faith will be hard to find. Thus the necessity for the Good Shepherd to restore the wayward to the path of righteousness for His name's sake on those left behind that are His. The other sheep that He has that were not of the fold that hears His voice and follows Him and not a stranger's voice.

Note: I am afraid to say and think I am one chosen. It is not because of doubt in God's Holiness, but scripture that says, the righteous will say, when did we see you naked and clothe you, when did we see you hungry and feed you? Please define for me the term iniquity so as to understand how you apply it.

Well: first off: we cannot say directly that we are chosen for that would be testifying of ourselves which would be a false witness. It would be hard to keep the foot of pride away from us if we went around saying we are chosen.

We can testify of His words of what He says to us, speaking of His promise to us.

John 15:12This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. 13Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. 14Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. 15Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. 16Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. 17These things I command you, that ye love one another.

Even I need Jesus' help to love one another, including my enemies. There are times when wrath and malice dominates my thoughts, but guess what? Jesus ministers to me to forgive and to love them for they know not what they do as His love is in me to enable me to love others, including my enemies.

I am His workmanship and bearing fruit as I am trusting Him to intercede to the Father on my behalf to give unto me what I need to be His chosen & His friend.

We can just as easily go astray as well.

Link to Jesus being the vine below: do note how to abide in Him to bear fruit

John 15 KJV - I am the true vine and my Father is the - Bible Gateway

And then see when we stop abiding in His words to bear fruit:

Romans 11:20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

I understand what you mean by how we live in hope in Him: but we can know that we are saved because of the empty tomb and Him dwelling within us, otherwise how can we say that we know Him cept through His words?

Hebrews 4th chapter at the link below:

Hebrews 4 KJV - Let us therefore fear lest a promise - Bible Gateway

So whenever I waver in my walk with Him or doubting my standing with Him, I go to the Lord Jesus Christ in prayer, trusting Him as my Good Shepherd to help me. I do testify that He has been my Good Shepherd even when I was sowing to the flesh as He led me away from them: other times He has chastened me: and delivered me when I called upon Him to do so and to keep me from it:

Trusting Jesus at His Word in being our Good Shepherd as well as Our Saviour is how we abide in Him as He enables us to continue in His word to be His disciples.

I know I am saved, but I trust Him to keep me falling and to present me faultless to His glory with the chosen at the Marriage Supper, thus I live in hope in His word that He has chosen me to bear fruit as I see Him helping me to follow Him by faith in Him and all His promises to me.

 

[childeye]

[/SIZE]

I am sure every believer have doubts, and they come in different forms, but as we do live in hope: there is something we should say in what we know: and I realize even that is done by the grace of God and help through His Word.

To confess that Jesus Christ is the Saviour and yet are not sure they are saved: is kind of hypocritical. We live by faith and not by sight: we live in hope in Him: but the idea of stating our belief that Jesus is the Saviour can only be done by one that acknowledges that He has saved them in order to be witnesses of Him that He is the Saviour and the Good News to man.

These dounts does not negate the reality for all those that believe as He dwells within us: the fact that no man can come to the Son unless the Father draws him proves that when a person believes: he is doing so by a work of God: and thus are saved. Having doubts later on does not negate salvation. It just means we should go to His words for the assurances we need in Him.



In John 10th chapter: Jesus began about those that are His sheep that follow His voice from those that do not, but follow a stranger's voice in climbing up another way: (which I discern by His grace as going after the "Holy Spirit" to receive again and by a sign just to receive tongues that comes with no interpretation which would be akin to a stranger's voice for climbing up another way ).

John 10:1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. 4And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 5And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

Believers will know that any spirit that tries to come inbetween them and the Son is a thief, and is not the real Holy Spirit at all.

John 10:7Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. 8All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. 9I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. 10The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

And stealing the focus from the Bridegroom is what seducing spirits will do.

Now here is where He acknowledges His sheep that follows His voice and then He speaks of the other sheep not of that fold as they were the ones that followed a stranger's voice by climbing up another way and thus they shall be made to hear His voice and be of the one fold and one shepherd.

John 10:14I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. 15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Unless the Lord does it sooner, that is what will happen at the pre tribulational rapture event on those wayward believers left behind.



Depends on your wording: is Jesus Christ the Saviour? Yes: Am I saved? Yes because He said so just by believing in Him. Do we live in hope? Yes. So do I know I am saved? Yes. Can I prove I am saved? By confessing with my mouth the Lord Jesus Christ and believing that God has raised Him from the dead that by His words, I can prove I am saved. More proof? His tomb is empty. He has risen. If He had not risen: then our preaching and our hope would be in vain.



All those that believe initially are saved: doubts will come: some will be even overthrown in their faith, erring from the truth, but guess what? They are still saved: having His seal.

2 Timothy 2:10- KJV - Therefore I endure all things for the - Bible Gateway

God is going to judge His House first ( 1 Peter 4:17-19 ): that is why the call to every one that name the name of Christ to depart from iniquity as in His House there are vessels unto honour and vessels unto dishonour. This judgment on the House of God will take place at the pre tribulational rapture event because of the prophesy that there will be a falling away from the faith to which point when Christ appears, faith will be hard to find. Thus the necessity for the Good Shepherd to restore the wayward to the path of righteousness for His name's sake on those left behind that are His. The other sheep that He has that were not of the fold that hears His voice and follows Him and not a stranger's voice.



Well: first off: we cannot say directly that we are chosen for that would be testifying of ourselves which would be a false witness. It would be hard to keep the foot of pride away from us if we went around saying we are chosen.

We can testify of His words of what He says to us, speaking of His promise to us.

John 15:12This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. 13Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. 14Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. 15Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. 16Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. 17These things I command you, that ye love one another.

Even I need Jesus' help to love one another, including my enemies. There are times when wrath and malice dominates my thoughts, but guess what? Jesus ministers to me to forgive and to love them for they know not what they do as His love is in me to enable me to love others, including my enemies.

I am His workmanship and bearing fruit as I am trusting Him to intercede to the Father on my behalf to give unto me what I need to be His chosen & His friend.

We can just as easily go astray as well.

Link to Jesus being the vine below: do note how to abide in Him to bear fruit

John 15 KJV - I am the true vine and my Father is the - Bible Gateway

And then see when we stop abiding in His words to bear fruit:

Romans 11:20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

I understand what you mean by how we live in hope in Him: but we can know that we are saved because of the empty tomb and Him dwelling within us, otherwise how can we say that we know Him cept through His words?

Hebrews 4th chapter at the link below:

Hebrews 4 KJV - Let us therefore fear lest a promise - Bible Gateway

So whenever I waver in my walk with Him or doubting my standing with Him, I go to the Lord Jesus Christ in prayer, trusting Him as my Good Shepherd to help me. I do testify that He has been my Good Shepherd even when I was sowing to the flesh as He led me away from them: other times He has chastened me: and delivered me when I called upon Him to do so and to keep me from it:

Trusting Jesus at His Word in being our Good Shepherd as well as Our Saviour is how we abide in Him as He enables us to continue in His word to be His disciples.

I know I am saved, but I trust Him to keep me falling and to present me faultless to His glory with the chosen at the Marriage Supper, thus I live in hope in His word that He has chosen me to bear fruit as I see Him helping me to follow Him by faith in Him and all His promises to me.

Enow, after reading this I am compelled to ask, how did you get so many words on one post? Beyond that I can appreciate your candor and surety in the trust of our Lord. I should make the distinction of being saved from being chosen is mostly what I take away from what you say. I am encouraged by your courage, even as I would declare that to say you know you are saved is not a bad thing, for it could be possible you know somewhere inside. Knowing Christ and knowing you're saved however is not quite the same. Some people fight doubt by convincing themselves the doubt should not be listened to. I fight doubt by listening to it and repeating what it says till I am convinced I can find no conviction in it. Either way what is true will endure. Thanks for your attention, I really do appreciate it. I think you have many good things to say.