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[_ Old Earth _] Discussion Material

John

Member
A post pulled from RDF, The original poster was banned for being a creationist and his arguments were never resolved. I am also banned for the crime of being Christian on RDF and never got to see the results of these posts, If indeed they were continued.

So lets discuss them here shall we.

Post 1: The Burden of Proof

We keep hearing that there is no proof of Intelligent Design and that there should
be no further discussion about this. Oh really?

Given the fact that the human body itself is an intelligence and that no
intelligent system known to Man has ever been created by anything other than by an
intelligent design, this seems a corollary. Talk of "Blind Watchmakers" is a
contradiction ,par excellence, as is talk of "Deaf Musicians".

Indeed, the design for the human organism is contained in all 60 trillion cells, in
the DNA that constitutes the blueprint for life. The Darwinists retort, as they
did in the New Scientist, with Michael LePage claiming that 97% of the DNA is
"junk" and "defunct". Yet the evidence over the past 4 years indicates that ncDNA
plays a vital role and that redundancy in genes prevents diseases and disorders.
Once again, this is an example of the Darwinists using trickery to deceive the
public.

The burden of proof is not on us ID proponents, but on the Darwinists to fully,
verifiable and comprehensively show how the irreducible integrity of the human
body, right down to the living cell is the result of selective and random processes.

To this day, the evidence they have presented has been paltry. Sickle cell
anemia presented as proof of a positive mutation in its heterozygous form,
the population fluctuations of moths for natural selection and so on. It is
almost embarrassing at times.

Under close analysis, Darwinian models of evolution just don't hold up..they
are theoretical, biased and sometimes just plain wrong. For all their talk of
selection, migration, recombination etc....Darwinism is just an attempt at
saying that life evolved by blind chance, wrapped in pseudo-scientific
terminology.

Intelligent Design alone should be taken seriously. The origin of the intelligence
behind it is irrelevant to scientific investigation, only its existence and effect.
 
Under close analysis, Darwinian models of evolution just don't hold up..

They are being used today by scientists and doctors to breed animals, prepare antibiotic protocols, and so on. Scientists have successfully predicted the characteristics of previously unknown fossil organisms; those predictions were confirmed when the expected fossils were found. The primary value of a theory is in its ability to make useful predictions.

For all their talk of selection, migration, recombination etc....Darwinism is just an attempt at saying that life evolved by blind chance,

Darwin's great discovery was that it wasn't by chance. Wouldn't you be more effective fighting science, if you knew what it was?

Intelligent Design alone should be taken seriously.

It doesn't do anything. No testable predictions, no theories, nothing. It's a religion. Which means it's useless for science. Nothing wrong with religion; it's just not something science can use.

Of course, for a Christian, demoting God to a mere "designer" just to sneak Him into a public school, is blasphemous.
 
What is RDF? Why would someone's post get "pulled" because they failed to be an atheist or a believer in the dogmas of atheist darwinism?

Bob
 
The Barbarian said:
Of course, for a Christian, demoting God to a mere "designer" just to sneak Him into a public school, is blasphemous.

In your continuos resort to self-conflicting positions you have now come to "another one" -- as you attack scientists supportive of God or of God as designer and of any Christians who see the truth in what they say - your attacks are usually of the atheist form "if you admit to design THEN YOU might as well be a Bible believing Christian who believes God" -- and each time you pull that stunt I point out that Bible believing Christians ARE NOT satisified with the Design argument at all. My point is that the design argument is a MODEST (lessor) form of what GODLESS PAGANS in Romans 1 "could easily see".

In your ceaseless efforts to ignore "detail" in the discussion and resort to "gaming instead" you keep missing the salient points of the debate.

Bob
 
BobRyan said:
What is RDF? Why would someone's post get "pulled" because they failed to be an atheist or a believer in the dogmas of atheist darwinism?

Bob

Richard Dawkins Fourm

Once they find out your a creationist / IDer they instatly throw ever form of disrespect your way.
 
johnmuise said:
BobRyan said:
What is RDF? Why would someone's post get "pulled" because they failed to be an atheist or a believer in the dogmas of atheist darwinism?

Bob

Richard Dawkins Fourm

Once they find out your a creationist / IDer they instatly throw ever form of disrespect your way.

What objective unbiased readers call "dark-ages censorship gestapo-thought-police storm-trooper style pogrom against dissenters" :smt067 :smt068 :smt027 :smt021

the true believers in atheist darwinism call "academic freedom" :painting: -- a two-headed monster reinvention of "Academic freedom" at best (at beast?)

Bob
 
johnmuise said:
A post pulled from RDF, The original poster was banned for being a creationist and his arguments were never resolved. I am also banned for the crime of being Christian on RDF and never got to see the results of these posts, If indeed they were continued.

So lets discuss them here shall we.

Post 1: The Burden of Proof

We keep hearing that there is no proof of Intelligent Design and that there should
be no further discussion about this. Oh really?

Given the fact that the human body itself is an intelligence and that no
intelligent system known to Man has ever been created by anything other than by an
intelligent design, this seems a corollary. Talk of "Blind Watchmakers" is a
contradiction ,par excellence, as is talk of "Deaf Musicians".
[/quote]

Indeed - not merely at the the macro level of "an entire human" complex living intelligent being - but even down to EACH CELL of that human that is FAR beyond all of man's technology to duplicate.

Pretty embarassing for those whose devotion to a specific religious endorsement of atheism "need" to claim that this all just "happens by itself' if you give "rocks and gas enough time".

Bob
 
Barbarian observes:
Of course, for a Christian, demoting God to a mere "designer" just to sneak Him into a public school, is blasphemous.

In your continuos resort to self-conflicting positions you have now come to "another one" -- as you attack scientists supportive of God or of God as designer

Sounds like you can't decide what you believe, Bob. Are you a Christian, who believes God the Creator, or are you an IDer, who puts his faith in a little "designer god?" You can't do both.

and of any Christians who see the truth in what they say - your attacks are usually of the atheist form "if you admit to design THEN YOU might as well be a Bible believing Christian who believes God"

No, you lied about that. I pointed out that it's blasphemous for you to demote God to a mere "designer." If you really believe in God, let Him be God. Trying to deceive others into his nature, just to get religion into public schools will fail, and it's a terrible insult to Him.

and each time you pull that stunt I point out that Bible believing Christians ARE NOT satisified with the Design argument at all. My point is that the design argument is a MODEST (lessor) form of what GODLESS PAGANS in Romans 1 "could easily see".

If people won't accept God, lying to them about Him won't help, Bob. Lesser gods are not what you should be teaching. Let God be God, and if people won't accept Him as the Creator, lying about Him will not make it better.
 
What objective unbiased readers call "dark-ages censorship gestapo-thought-police storm-trooper style pogrom against dissenters" :smt067 :smt068 :smt027 :smt021

Getting your ideas criticized is hardly oppression. You guys have some kind of odd emotional need to feel persecuted. Ironically, as was documented earlier, when ID/creationists get some power, the first thing they do it try to censor anyone else.
 
Actually you needed to "read the details" and then "follow the points" in the post. (As surprising as that might seem to you currently). He said that posters were being blocked for daring to have thoughts not inline with Dawkins atheist darwinism.

Bob
 
Actually you needed to "read the details" and then "follow the points" in the post. (As surprising as that might seem to you currently). He said that posters were being blocked for daring to have thoughts not inline with Dawkins atheist darwinism.

If getting blocked for expressing the wrong view on an online message board is persecution to you, I'd say you had a rather overdeveloped persecution complex. I once knew a YE creationist who had been banned from the old ICR board, for not being quite YE enough.

That's the way it goes on boards. I've been banned on a few in the past myself for being Christian but not YE.
 
Calling it "persecution" is a bit loony, IMO. It's an insult to the many thousands of Christians who are being truly persecuted in various places around the world. Their homes, livelihoods, and even their lives and families are at risk.

And some wimps think being criticized or banned on a discussion board is "persecution." Sad.
 
johnmuise said:
A post pulled from RDF, The original poster was banned for being a creationist and his arguments were never resolved. I am also banned for the crime of being Christian on RDF and never got to see the results of these posts, If indeed they were continued.

So lets discuss them here shall we.

Post 1: The Burden of Proof

We keep hearing that there is no proof of Intelligent Design and that there should
be no further discussion about this. Oh really?
No further discussion until, y'know, an actual theory of ID and evidence for it is presented.

Given the fact that the human body itself is an intelligence
Huh? The human brain displays intelligence, but this can't be extended to say the entire human body is intelligent, since intelligence is an emergent phenomenon and can be created from entirely un-intelligent components. Once AI is formed, for example, the computer running the AI could be taken apart and be thoroughly non-intelligent.
and that no
intelligent system known to Man has ever been created by anything other than by an
intelligent design, this seems a corollary. Talk of "Blind Watchmakers" is a
contradiction ,par excellence, as is talk of "Deaf Musicians".
If we define intelligent system as something designed by an intelligent agent, then this statement is tautological and furthermore you cannot infer from this definition that humans are intelligent systems (whatever that means; my kidney doesn't think).
What else can we define intelligent system as? A system that is designed...well? Evolutionary algorithms can produce functioning systems. Natural process also form things like diamonds and other crystals, they are exceptional designs with clear properties and uses. Is that an example of an 'intelligent system' being formed naturally?

Indeed, the design for the human organism is contained in all 60 trillion cells, in
the DNA that constitutes the blueprint for life. The Darwinists retort, as they
did in the New Scientist, with Michael LePage claiming that 97% of the DNA is
"junk" and "defunct". Yet the evidence over the past 4 years indicates that ncDNA
plays a vital role and that redundancy in genes prevents diseases and disorders.
Once again, this is an example of the Darwinists using trickery to deceive the
public.
Argument from big numbers. 60 trillion cells doesn't indicate design, it just indicates something that can replicate itself a lot, you don't need intelligence for that necessarily.
Not all of junk DNA is purposeless but there are elements which have been found to have directly detrimental effects and their original definition stands; the sequences are not transcribed. In addition, a lot of junk DNA is just the same pattern repeated over and over, say, TATATATATATATATATATATA... what use could that have except take up space? If it's intelligent design, why not put something useful in the space, like say a potentially useful function or useful genetic material?
Redundancy in genes, sure, but that's different from junk DNA.
And let's get onto the REAL intelligent design in humans. The optic nerve placed in front, the incredibly narrow tunnel for carrying spinal fluid, joints that wear out, the human body and psyche's COMPLETE incompatibility with modern living (for example, the process to become fat to store food over the winter is now useless as one can get food whenever one needs it, so this process is now detrimental; what supposedly intelligent designer didn't see this coming assuming humans were intended to invent and progress?). By the way, the appendix isn't useless, it has co-opted new uses. The existence of an appendix in ALL other primates as well is telling, however.
What else...how about the nipples on men? Useless. What designer thought this was the best way to implement it? How about more mathematical and logical ability, which would not have been useful in the wild where instincts and emotions took the place of the ability to freely learn about the natural world free of threats? And, dare I say it...homosexuality? From an engineering perspective, useless and advances nothing compared to heterosexuality, so if we were intelligently design why is the possibility open?
I could go on and on about these things, but hopefully you get what I'm coming at.

The burden of proof is not on us ID proponents, but on the Darwinists to fully,
verifiable and comprehensively show how the irreducible integrity of the human
body, right down to the living cell is the result of selective and random processes.
IDists can just claim design, sit back and relax while those advocating darwinian evolution have to document every stage of every process and feature of the human body in verbatim? Look, do proponents of ID have a theory or not? I'm really curious, since you're always telling everyone else to do all the work.
I mean, ultimately such a vast wealth of knowledge about the evolutionary history of mankind and all other species could be assembled, but definitely not right now. When Darwin compiled evidence for his theory of evolution he did not document the lineage and predecessor of every feature of the human body ever. Was his theory wrong? No. While it did not have evidence to back it up at every possible aisle and end, it had more confirming evidence and predictive power than any other theory out there at the time. And as the body of evidence grows and grows, ID makes no attempt to uncover new evidence for its theory, if it even has one.

To this day, the evidence they have presented has been paltry. Sickle cell
anemia presented as proof of a positive mutation in its heterozygous form,
the population fluctuations of moths for natural selection and so on. It is
almost embarrassing at times.
http://www.gate.net/~rwms/EvoMutations.html
http://www.gate.net/~rwms/EvoHumBenMutations.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/mutations.html#Q2

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/speciation.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:R ... ion_events

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc ... inids2.jpg
http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/HorseEvolution.gif

And there's more where that came from.
If you don't think you've seen enough evidence to confirm evolution personally, why not go out and look?

Under close analysis, Darwinian models of evolution just don't hold up..they
are theoretical, biased and sometimes just plain wrong. For all their talk of
selection, migration, recombination etc....Darwinism is just an attempt at
saying that life evolved by blind chance, wrapped in pseudo-scientific
terminology.
Based on how much study, how much examination of the scientific body of knowledge in evolution, fossils and biology, etc?

Intelligent Design alone should be taken seriously. The origin of the intelligence
behind it is irrelevant to scientific investigation, only its existence and effect.
How about the nature of the 'intelligence' then?
 
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