Do not forbid him, for no one who works a miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of Me

[Alfred Persson]

38 Now John answered Him, saying, "Teacher, we saw someone who does not follow us casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow us."
39 But Jesus said, "Do not forbid him, for no one who works a miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of Me.
40 "For he who is not against us is on our side.
41 "For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink in My name, because you belong to Christ, assuredly, I say to you, he will by no means lose his reward. (Mk. 9:38-41 NKJ)

When I learned the Jehovah's Witnesses were wrong about the Holy Spirit (Acts 13:2-4), that He is much more than "God's active force", I became an Orthodox Nicean Trinitarian, by God's grace.

But the JW book "Did Man Get Here by Evolution or Creation" was used by God to make me read Scripture, to overcome the Marxist atheism my culture convinced me to believe, and read Scripture for the first time.

The Bible's powerful words convinced me God is.

Like most converts to Orthodox Christianity from the JWs I went forth against the cults, confident I was in the right, doing God's will.

But Jesus' words "Do not forbid him" indicate something else may be occurring in God's providence.

Perhaps the cults serve a purpose, just as satan does. They separate the wheat from the chaff. The cults reach many not otherwise evangelized, but those born of God hear God's voice and leave them, for Christ.

From the evidence, its logical to conclude the cults serve God's purpose, accomplish His goals.

The cults (satan, lies, etc) test whether a person loves truth, loves God. That is the greatest commandment (Mark 12:29-30) :

1 "If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder,
2 "and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying,`Let us go after other gods'-- which you have not known--`and let us serve them,'
3 "you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the LORD your God is testing you to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
4 "You shall walk after the LORD your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice, and you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him. (Deut. 13:1-4 NKJ)

Those who remain in the cults are no worse off. At worst they remain children of the devil, but they were that before the cult captivated them.

Just a thought.

I am NOT saying we should stop aplogetics against cult ideas. Edmond Gruss' book "Apostles of Denial" was instrumental on convincing me the JWs are wrong.

I only suggest, that perhaps in God's providence, cults (and even satan) serve God's purposes. Jesus' sheep hear God's voice despite the best efforts of the cults, even if cultic ideas mislead them for a time. They eventually see God's truth.

1 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
2 "But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3 "To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
4 "And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice.
5 "Yet they will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers."
6 Jesus used this illustration, but they did not understand the things which He spoke to them.
7 Then Jesus said to them again, "Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 "All who ever came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.
9 "I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
10 "The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.
11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.
12 "But a hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them.
13 "The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep.
14 "I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. (Jn. 10:1-14 NKJ)

 

[Alfred Persson]

5 Walk in wisdom toward those who are outside, redeeming the time.
6 Let your speech always be with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer each one. (Col. 4:5-6 NKJ)

 

[Whatever]

I only suggest, that perhaps in God's providence, cults (and even satan) serve God's purposes. Jesus' sheep hear God's voice despite the best efforts of the cults, even if cultic ideas mislead them for a time. They eventually see God's truth

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

But it would be good for a Church teacher to teach their people about cults and why they are wrong. I know of a Church where they never did that and a Church elders daughter met this "nice, sweet, adorable" Muslim guy and ended up marrying him. If she had been taught about Islam it might not have happened.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

But it would be good for a Church teacher to teach their people about cults and why they are wrong. I know of a Church where they never did that and a Church elders daughter met this "nice, sweet, adorable" Muslim guy and ended up marrying him. If she had been taught about Islam it might not have happened.

Great catch, don't know why Romans 8:28 didn't occur to me in this regard. Explains everything.

Apologetic courses should exist in all churches. People should know how to speak to cultists, giving them bible truth rather than refusing to speak to them. Or worse, being converted by them.

 

[miamited]

Honestly, I'm not comfortable with referring to those who practice a faith in God as Jehovah's Witnesses to be in a cult. Yes, they have some differing understandings of what the Scriptures teach, but then so do those who practice their worship of God among the RCC. Imagine learning your faith in the Episcopalian denomination sitting under John Shelby Spong. Do we call those congregants cult members? One thing that I do agree with in the JW's faith is that we aren't going to live eternally in heaven. Just as they portray on their Watchtower covers, believers are going to live on a new earth. Which, as far as I can tell will be pretty much like the first earth, only newly created without the stain of sin. God made the first earth perfect for Adam and Eve. We're still going to be living on another perfect earth created by God just as the first earth created for Adam and Eve. Now, there will be some differences, as I understand the Scriptures. There will be no need of the sun or moon according to the account of the new earth in the Revelation.

So, for me, I'm satisfied to teach correction of error just as I would with someone involved with the RCC or the Episcopalian fellowships or many of the other 'wrongheaded' congregations. I think that Jesus' letter to the seven churches should give us an example that there will be error within the various fellowships of the church. Our job is to work to correct that error where we can.

For me, a cult would be more like what Jim Jones had. A group where leaving was not allowed and people were brainwashed to follow some leader as a type of god. David Koresh would be the leader of a cult. But JW's are free to leave that group if they so wish. No one is threatening them to stay and believe what the leader believes and to worship that leader as some sort of god among them. Yes, they have fallen into error, but no, I don't see them as a cult. But perhaps it's just a matter of definition.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Honestly, I'm not comfortable with referring to those who practice a faith in God as Jehovah's Witnesses to be in a cult. Yes, they have some differing understandings of what the Scriptures teach, but then so do those who practice their worship of God among the RCC. Imagine learning your faith in the Episcopalian denomination sitting under John Shelby Spong. Do we call those congregants cult members? One thing that I do agree with in the JW's faith is that we aren't going to live eternally in heaven. Just as they portray on their Watchtower covers, believers are going to live on a new earth. Which, as far as I can tell will be pretty much like the first earth, only newly created without the stain of sin. God made the first earth perfect for Adam and Eve. We're still going to be living on another perfect earth created by God just as the first earth created for Adam and Eve. Now, there will be some differences, as I understand the Scriptures. There will be no need of the sun or moon according to the account of the new earth in the Revelation.

So, for me, I'm satisfied to teach correction of error just as I would with someone involved with the RCC or the Episcopalian fellowships or many of the other 'wrongheaded' congregations. I think that Jesus' letter to the seven churches should give us an example that there will be error within the various fellowships of the church. Our job is to work to correct that error where we can.

For me, a cult would be more like what Jim Jones had. A group where leaving was not allowed and people were brainwashed to follow some leader as a type of god. David Koresh would be the leader of a cult. But JW's are free to leave that group if they so wish. No one is threatening them to stay and believe what the leader believes and to worship that leader as some sort of god among them. Yes, they have fallen into error, but no, I don't see them as a cult. But perhaps it's just a matter of definition.

I define "cult" as any religious group that deviates significantly from orthodox Christian doctrine while still claiming to be Christian. Jehovah’s Witnesses fit this definition because:

• They deny the Trinity and believe Jesus is not God but rather Michael the Archangel.
• They reject salvation by grace through faith alone and require adherence to Watchtower teachings.
• They have their own translation of the Bible (New World Translation) that differs from standard biblical texts.

By your definition, perhaps they aren't a "cult". Although physically "free to leave", the indoctrination is so strong ONLY the Holy Spirit can overcome it.

But I wouldn't insult them with the term when witnessesing to them. I tell them about my wonderful personal relationshjp with God my Father, in Jesus' name in the Holy Spirit. That has greater chance of overcoming their indoctrination rather than the reciting the usual proof texts for Orthodoxy first. They are unlikely to "hear" or "see" those proofs, because they are thinking only about how to answer it as they are trained to automatically do.

 

[Whatever]

They deny the Trinity and believe Jesus is not God but rather Michael the Archangel.

Yeah, I was going to say the same thing. The "jesus" they worship is not the Jesus of the Bible.
An angel did not shed his blood for me.

 

[miamited]

hi guys. Well, for the record, here's what the JW website says about what JW's believe about God, the Son and the Scriptures.

https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/jehovah-witness-beliefs/

I'm not sure that some of the things that have been ascribed to their beliefs is supported by what their public testimony, as a group, says that they believe.

 

[Whatever]

I'm not sure that some of the things that have been ascribed to their beliefs is supported by what their public testimony, as a group, says that they believe.

Here is their # 3 about Jesus:
3. Jesus. We follow the teachings and example of Jesus Christ and honor him as our Savior and as the Son of God. (Matthew 20:28; Acts 5:31) Thus, we are Christians. (Acts 11:26) However, we have learned from the Bible that Jesus is not Almighty God and that there is no Scriptural basis for the Trinity doctrine.—John 14:28.

Thus their jesus is not the divine, sinless Logos who was with God and was God and became flesh and paid for our sins and rose again. Therefore, they are not Christians (followers of the true Jesus) as they claim.

 

[miamited]

Here is their # 3 about Jesus:
3. Jesus. We follow the teachings and example of Jesus Christ and honor him as our Savior and as the Son of God. (Matthew 20:28; Acts 5:31) Thus, we are Christians. (Acts 11:26) However, we have learned from the Bible that Jesus is not Almighty God and that there is no Scriptural basis for the Trinity doctrine.—John 14:28.

Thus their jesus is not the divine, sinless Logos who was with God and was God and became flesh and paid for our sins and rose again. Therefore, they are not Christians (followers of the true Jesus) as they claim.

I agree with that position. Jesus is God's Son and he now sits at the right hand of the majesty on high. Even the Revelation of Jesus makes it pretty clear that there is some difference between Jesus and God as far as their glory and power, but it's all good. I do, however, find the trinity of God to be a clear teaching of the Scriptures. Like I say, there are some errors just as there are some errors in many denominational statements of faith and what is believed to be the truth of God. Where do we find that some man has the authority to determine if a marriage is valid or not?

 

[Whatever]

Even the Revelation of Jesus makes it pretty clear that there is some difference between Jesus and God as far as their glory and power

That is because the Word took on flesh.

Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.

This is good from John MacArthur:
The Greek word for “emptied” gives us the theological term kenosis, the doctrine of Christ’s self-emptying. The kenosis basically reminds us of what we saw in yesterday’s lesson: Jesus’ humble refusal to cling to His advantages and privileges in Heaven. The Son of God, who has a right to everything and is fully satisfied within Himself, voluntarily emptied Himself.
We have already noted that Jesus did not empty Himself of His deity, but He did lay aside certain prerogatives. For one thing, He gave up His heavenly glory. That’s why, in anticipation of His return to the Father, Christ prayed, “Glorify Thou Me together with Thyself, Father, with the glory which I ever had with Thee before the world was” (John 17:5).
Jesus also relinquished His independent authority and completely submitted Himself to the Father’s will: “Not as I will, but as Thou wilt” (Matt. 26:39).
During His time on earth, Christ also voluntarily limited the use and display of His divine attributes. One good illustration of this concerned His omniscience, His knowledge of all things. In teaching about the end-times and His second coming, Jesus said, “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone” (Matt. 24:36).
Jesus’ self-emptying demonstrates a wonderful aspect of the gospel. Unlike man-centered, works-oriented religions, the biblical gospel has God’s Son willingly yielding His privileges to sacrifice Himself for sinners like us.