Does Trouble come from God?

[Elijah674]

Personally, for my thinking, I see God allowing evil that came from sin to mature, & do much of His 'permitted work'. I say permitted because satan could do nothing without the Godhead standing by their Gen. 1:26 reversal of pledge to Adam after he sinned and then.. loosing his domain to the serpent. (take note of the devil in Matt. 4:6).

And Grace in the O.T.? Surely the pre/flood ones could of had NO MORE GRACE than that is seen in Gen. 6:3's Striving of the Holy Spirit for 120 years along with Noah's Preaching?? Even the person to person WARNING in Gen. 4:7 to Cain by Christ/God in His Eternal Voice OF GRACE could be no more POWERFUL! (Rev. 14:6) What most miss is that Christ was not omnipresent under these forfeited conditions, so they think that Grace was minor, which is was not!!

But take note of what was touched on before. That of Jonah. Here are several examples of even God working His will on both the saved & the lost sinner alike!. (and the Godhead takes the 'heat' even for permitting evil to take on its maturity as well, as disasters in all forms of today excellaration. Matt. 24:21-24)

Yet, be sure to catch the added highlights!

Jonah.1
[1] Now the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the son of Amittai, saying,
[2] Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me.

(A Warning or what?)

[3] But Jonah rose up [to flee] unto Tarshish from the presence of the LORD, and went down to Joppa; and he found a ship going to Tarshish: so he paid the fare thereof, and went down into it, to go with them unto Tarshish from the presence of the LORD.
[4] But the LORD sent out a great wind into the sea, and there was a mighty tempest in the sea, so that the ship was like to be broken.

(The Lord did what???)

[5] [Then the mariners were afraid,] and cried every man unto his god, and cast forth the wares that were in the ship into the sea, to lighten it of them. But Jonah was gone down into the sides of the ship; and he lay, and was fast asleep.
[6] So the shipmaster came to him, and said unto him, What meanest thou, O sleeper? [arise, call upon thy God, if so be that God will think upon us, that we perish not.]

(one 'might see' that God had a Loving Gospel Motive in both messages? FEAR for Niveveh's DESTRUCTION?! + these 'g'od believers also! But... that was not all as we see by reading on... who was the cause of this VIOLENT STORM??)

[7] And they said every one to his fellow, Come, and let us cast lots, that we may know for whose cause this evil is upon us. So they cast lots, and the lot fell upon Jonah.
[8] Then said they unto him, Tell us, we pray thee, for whose cause this evil is upon us; What is thine occupation? and whence comest thou? what is thy country? and of what people art thou?

[9] And he said unto them, I am an Hebrew; and I fear the LORD, the God of heaven, which hath made the sea and the dry land.
[10] Then were the men exceedingly afraid, and said unto him, Why hast thou done this? For the men knew that he fled from the presence of the LORD, because he had told them.
[11] Then said they unto him,

[What shall we do unto thee, that the sea may be calm unto us? for the sea wrought, and was tempestuous.]

[12] And he said unto them, Take me up, and cast me forth into the sea; so shall the sea be calm unto you: [for I know that for my sake this great tempest is upon you.]

[13] Nevertheless the men rowed hard to bring it to the land; but they could not: for the sea wrought, and was tempestuous against them.
[14] Wherefore they cried unto the LORD, and said, We beseech thee, O LORD, we beseech thee, let us not perish for this man's life, and lay not upon us innocent blood: for thou, O LORD, [hast done as it pleased thee.]

[15] So they took up Jonah, and cast him forth into the sea: and the sea ceased from her raging.
[16] Then the men feared the LORD exceedingly, and offered a sacrifice unto the LORD, and made vows.

Let me just say that this truth will be used against all of the ones in the 666 soon coming time/period. We are in the escalation of the last phase of the rejection of the Holy Spirit. The 'TRIBULATIONS' will reach only the few in the last results who are not the real cause of them. (Rev. 17:1-5 ones + Matt. 7's Broadway ones) All the rest will be crying for the Rev. 12:17's BLOOD saying that they are the cause! Execute them & all of this trouble will cease! if they will not take the MARK of sun sacredness! You know, WE HAVE NO KING BUT CAESAR was their cry!

And who are these ones??? They come in all false colors + winds of Doctrine! Gen. 4:7 DESIREE'S, + the ones below!

1 Kings 22
[20] And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
[21] And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
[22] And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
[23] Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

--Elijah

 

[Codger]

Yes, in a lot of cases - here's what I mean...

I've spent some time in the Word of Faith movment. I do believe that God is all positive. But when he says that he is going to prosper you, watch out - it can also mean spiritually. For example: Anybody can read the scriptures about turning the other cheek and praying for those who dispitefully use you - but doing it is something else.

Too many of us do not respond well when this happpens to us. God puts certain people in our path to cause us to grow in his grace. These people are called "Grace Growers" by one itinerate evangelist.

Grace Growers are people that God has put around you at great expense and care to help you to grow in the fruit of the Spirit. Grace growers are people who aggravate and infuriate you at every turn. They are insulting, rude, insensitive and you really don’t want to be around them at all. Also, you cannot escape them – you can change jobs, move to another city, no matter where you go in life they will always be there anticipating your arrival and ready to go to work in your behalf.

The reason that God has to use grace growers is because the real fruit of the Spirit only grows in really bad soil. Growing the Spirit’s fruit is kind of like growing mushrooms – both flourish in darkness and manure. You know – where evil abounds – grace much more abounds. God tries to teach us out of his word about his loving character. We read the words, but it seldom becomes part of our active character and personality. (Speaking from experience)


When God teaches us about his kind of love he usually has no choice but to do it through grace growers – it seems to be a fact of life that we just can’t get it out of "the book" alone. We read the words, but fail in the practical application. Somehow we always manage see our test as an exception because of the injustice and hurt involved, which is directed squarely toward us. He will put us in a negative situation to see what our response will be. He wants to see if we will respond to a very negative situation with a reverse spirit. Will we return good for evil in a real life situation? This is not easily done - out of our humanity that is.

Of course we always have the right answer in Theology class, but what of real life? God has to send us these really negative situations so that we can shed (and see through) all of our phony, humanistic, warm and fuzzy, sickly sentimental, reciprocal love, and grow in his kind of love. If we respond in anger or malice toward others we have simply failed the test. No problem though, there are no demerits in Gods program – but the bad news is - we have to take the test over again, and again, and again until we get it right. Once we start passing the test on a regular basis the grace growers seem to disappear and do not affect us much anymore.

One poignant characteristic of immature Christians is they always seem to be easily angered and often use their anger to try to control and intimidate others - often a grace grower - to try to surpress and control our behavior. When we quote scriptures in anger just to control people - we have failed the test – not to worry though - another test is already on the way.

Larry

 

[Alabaster]

Personally, for my thinking, I see God allowing evil that came from sin to mature, & do much of His 'permitted work'. I say permitted because satan could do nothing without the Godhead standing by their Gen. 1:26 reversal of pledge to Adam after he sinned and then.. loosing his domain to the serpent. (take note of the devil in Matt. 4:6).

Elijah, Satan does all kinds of things in this world without God's permission! What you are believing is false.

 

[glorydaz]

Elijah, Satan does all kinds of things in this world without God's permission! What you are believing is false.

Permission, in the sense that it's allowed, not caused or sanctioned by God. Satan can only do what God allows. God permits men to sin, disobey Him, and be destroyed by the power of death through Satan.

 

[Alabaster]

Permission, in the sense that it's allowed, not caused or sanctioned by God. Satan can only do what God allows. God permits men to sin, disobey Him, and be destroyed by the power of death through Satan.

False. Satan does his own thing and doesn't give a rip about what God thinks. He is busy trying to tear down the Kingdom. God doesn't stand idly by allowing evil to destroy people's lives and distort the truth. You are parroting some sort of 'party line' that in essence makes God a party to the evil machinations of Satan without truly thinking about it.

The truth is that He has given His people the authority of Christ over Satan and WE are supposed to be advancing against Satan's kingdom, but too many Christians are content to be powerless.

 

[glorydaz]

False. Satan does his own thing and doesn't give a rip about what God thinks. He is busy trying to tear down the Kingdom. God doesn't stand idly by allowing evil to destroy people's lives and distort the truth. You are parroting some sort of 'party line' that in essence makes God a party to the evil machinations of Satan without truly thinking about it.

Hmmm....I don't think God's sovereignty is something to take so lightly. Is God a "party" to your sin when you commit one? He allows you to sin, doesn't He? God is certainly not idle, but He is infinitely patient with man. He allows man to sin, and He allows satan to tempt man. We should never give satan more power than he actually has.

 

[Alabaster]

Hmmm....I don't think God's sovereignty is something to take so lightly. Is God a "party" to your sin when you commit one? He allows you to sin, doesn't He? God is certainly not idle, but He is infinitely patient with man. He allows man to sin, and He allows satan to tempt man. We should never give satan more power than he actually has.

God doesn't allow us to sin. There is a price to pay for sin. To say He allows it is lessening His sovereignty.

He forgives sin in a contrite heart, but He doesn't allow sin.

 

[stovebolts]

False. Satan does his own thing and doesn't give a rip about what God thinks. He is busy trying to tear down the Kingdom. God doesn't stand idly by allowing evil to destroy people's lives and distort the truth.

Just curious how you view the transaction between Satan and God in Job 1:6-12 Or what about what is written is Isaiah 45:7?

BTW, can we pay a bit closer attention to the TOS please. You know, address the topic, not the person.

thanks :yes

 

[Alabaster]

Just curious how you view the transaction between Satan and God in Job 1:6-12 Or what about what is written is Isaiah 45:7?

Job lived pre-law, while we live post-cross. Job, as we have now, had all the protection afforded a righteous man, but one thing he didn't have: the authority of Jesus Christ over Satan.

 

[stovebolts]

There is much debate on the time frame which Job lived and most believe that Job was a gentile. But I find it ironic that in the opening paragraph, we see Levitical language and law being used when it speaks about Job offering Burnt Offerings each morning to YHVH for any sins that his children may have committed against YHVH, so we see that when the gentiles, even pre-law do what's in accordance with the law, they become a law unto themselves. (Romans 2:14)

If Satan could not touch a righteous man pre-law, and pre-Christ without permission from YHVH, then how much more does Christ protect His Church from Satan?

What I'm challenging is your words, False. Satan does his own thing and doesn't give a rip about what God thinks.

Yet even in the Old Testament Satan had to ask YHVH's permission, so I don't see Satan as 'doing his own thing not giving a rip about what God thinks".

What about your thoughts on Isaiah 45:7??

 

[Alabaster]

Isaiah 45:7 Amplified
I form the light and create darkness, I make peace [national well-being] and I create [physical] evil (calamity); I am the Lord, Who does all these things.

He means what He says. God isn't the author of personal trouble. He doesn't work against Himself. Trouble comes from either our own consequences of doing or thinking the wrong things, or from the machinations of the evil one who desires us to fail and fall.

God has given us the authority of His Son to deal swiftly and completely with Satan.

 

[glorydaz]

God doesn't allow us to sin. There is a price to pay for sin. To say He allows it is lessening His sovereignty.

He forgives sin in a contrite heart, but He doesn't allow sin.

If God didn't "allow" sin then we would have no sin and man wouldn't have a free will to choose between good and evil. It was not in the mind or will of God for His people to burn their sons as burnt offerings, but He allowed them to exercise their free wills and do such things.

Jeremiah 19:5 5They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

Here, too, we see the "permissive will of God". He "suffered all nations to walk in their own ways." He allowed it.

15And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein:

16Who in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways.

God "gave them over to a reprobate mind". He allowed them to exercise their free will.

And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

 

[glorydaz]

Isaiah 45:7 Amplified
I form the light and create darkness, I make peace [national well-being] and I create [physical] evil (calamity); I am the Lord, Who does all these things.

He means what He says. God isn't the author of personal trouble. He doesn't work against Himself. Trouble comes from either our own consequences of doing or thinking the wrong things, or from the machinations of the evil one who desires us to fail and fall.

God has given us the authority of His Son to deal swiftly and completely with Satan.

I agree that God has given us the authority of His Son to deal with Satan, but "personal trouble" is a means God uses to strengthen the spiritual man. He works all things to our good, and that includes many trials and tribulations that are unpleasant to the flesh, but necessary for our being conformed into the image of Jesus. Trials work patience, do they not?

2My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;

3Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

4But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

 

[Alabaster]

If God didn't "allow" sin then we would have no sin and man wouldn't have a free will to choose between good and evil. It was not in the mind or will of God for His people to burn their sons as burnt offerings, but He allowed them to exercise their free wills and do such things.

Here, too, we see the "permissive will of God". He "suffered all nations to walk in their own ways." He allowed it.

God "gave them over to a reprobate mind". He allowed them to exercise their free will.

I think that many people just do not understand that it was God's pleasure to gift mankind with his own sovereignty. He can choose God's ways or his own or even Satan's ways. In that way I suppose you can say that God allows man to sin, but I don't see it that way. He stands by His own design and His own word and that means He doesn't stand by and allow us to sin. He is continually speaking to us by His Spirit and employing angels to lead us and show us His will and the right way to go. But He will not interfere with our own sovereignty to decide and purpose to sin or not to sin.

 

[Alabaster]

I agree that God has given us the authority of His Son to deal with Satan, but "personal trouble" is a means God uses to strengthen the spiritual man. He works all things to our good, and that includes many trials and tribulations that are unpleasant to the flesh, but necessary for our being conformed into the image of Jesus. Trials work patience, do they not?

You are correct, but I do not believe that God authors trouble for us. Trouble is a natural byproduct of our sin. He uses it to work His ways in us, but He doesn't send it.

 

[glorydaz]

You are correct, but I do not believe that God authors trouble for us. Trouble is a natural byproduct of our sin. He uses it to work His ways in us, but He doesn't send it.

True...God is not the author of evil or sin. God is love, and He allows trouble so that we can pass through it WITH Him. We can be sure that any trouble that comes our way will be worked together for good for those who love the Him.

 

[Elijah674]

True...God is not the author of evil or sin. God is love, and He allows trouble so that we can pass through it WITH Him. We can be sure that any trouble that comes our way will be worked together for good for those who love the Him.

I agree with that to the point that God does allow chastening to take place. How about Jonah? (Jonah 1:12) And Miriam in Num. 12:1-14? And Heb. 12:4-8, but verse 6 in particular?

--Elijah

 

[glorydaz]

I agree with that to the point that God does allow chastening to take place. How about Jonah? (Jonah 1:12) And Miriam in Num. 12:1-14? And Heb. 12:4-8, but verse 6 in particular?

--Elijah

Ah, yes...

4But the LORD sent out a great wind into the sea, and there was a mighty tempest in the sea, so that the ship was like to be broken.

Excellent point on the chastening. Good examples all.