Elevated Self Awareness and Original Sin

[Fevertree]

I'm not sure if this is the right place for this, but I guess it could be an apologetics talking point for those that are able to entertain a non literal interpretation of Genesis. I find myself here, trying to find common ground in the creation vs evolution debate. I'm not an intellectual or a theologian so don't expect much. I'm just walking endlessly in the wilderness, screaming from time to time.

Lately I've been exploring some correlation between so called original sin (eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil) and the archeological record of our evolutionary development.

I want to focus in on the correlation as just a point of intetest, not debate, since I'm unqualified as stated above.

I think I'll break it down into:

1. Correlation - What correlation exists between the development of heightened self awareness and the Biblical account of original sin.

2. Adolescence - Correlation between intellectual growth of modern humans through adolescence and original sin.

3. Just thinking - Implications and further speculation.

1. Correlation

In the account in Genesis we can see the results of original sin: Death, realization of nakedness, pain of pregnancy increased and expulsion from paradise.

In the archeological record we can see that as the self awareness of our ancestors increased, especially so after becoming bipedal, that at some point or phase we became self aware enough to realise the implications of death and loss of self, and the shame of being naked. This lead these ancestors to start performing burial rituals and to wear clothes. There are many scientific papers discussing this and can be easily found by search engine or AI. There are also studies that discuss the implications of bipedalism on the birth canal and increased pain of pregnancy.

If we think about this, if increased self awareness correlates in impact between the Bible and archeology/evolution, it is then fitting to find that the life of Jesus, and a return to paradise involves a journey of selflessness and surrender of self, or even ego death. A return to innocence so to speak.

I like to think that original sin was the process where our ancestors gained enough self awareness to know and understand death, realise their nakedness and become responsible for their actions. There was was bliss in being oblivious to these things before then; a paradise. In following the selflessness of Jesus we can return to innocence. If the self becomes less important, death loses its sting, and eternal concepts like love become the new identity. Like being born again. I wont discuss the irony of how many of us twist the life of Jesus to seek an eternal self, and as a result believe what the serpent said instead.

2. Adolescence

There are studies (again, can easily be searched) that explain that a modern humans journey through adolescence is a snapshot of our mental development through evolution. As self awareness in a child progresses, we see the very same 'punishments' as in Genesis. From innocence to responsibility. From childhood bliss to the realization and shame of nakedness and the implications of death.

I believe this is what Jesus meant when he said: "Let the little children come to Me, and do not hinder them! For the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these" I think he meant and referred to their underdeveloped self awareness. A return to innocence. Yet many of us envision heavenly splendor as an eternal self.

3 Just Thinking

I wonder sometimes how many of us would be Christian, if it truly meant giving up the self. Would we be willing to give up the vivid consciousness and self awareness we have now? I wonder if that is the cross we must bear? Is it even possible for me, a person of flesh to reduce self interest so much that death becomes trivial. Is this the answer to the question of evil? Are we so mesmerized by the self (that may only be a mental construct) that we expect God to value a material construct the same? Maybe the value of life lies in the ability to display selflessness? Does it influence how we interpret the Bible, making us believe in the eternal self?

"For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it" This scripture changes for me. It tells me true life is found without the self.

Anyway, if you managed to get this far, thanks for reading. This is all just speculation, I leave objective things to academics and theologians. Sometimes I need to write things down and say them, or my fire becomes overwhelming.

P.S. Watch out, the self is a subtle beast, because we equate self importance preservation with good, yet it carries with it the pain of death and shame. Someone important proved otherwise, and proved that beast a murderer..

 

[Hidden In Him]

I'm not sure if this is the right place for this, but I guess it could be an apologetics talking point for those that are able to entertain a non literal interpretation of Genesis. I find myself here, trying to find common ground in the creation vs evolution debate. I'm not an intellectual or a theologian so don't expect much. I'm just walking endlessly in the wilderness, screaming from time to time.

Lately I've been exploring some correlation between so called original sin (eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil) and the archeological record of our evolutionary development.

I want to focus in on the correlation as just a point of intetest, not debate, since I'm unqualified as stated above.

I think I'll break it down into:

1. Correlation - What correlation exists between the development of heightened self awareness and the Biblical account of original sin.

2. Adolescence - Correlation between intellectual growth of modern humans through adolescence and original sin.

3. Just thinking - Implications and further speculation.

1. Correlation

In the account in Genesis we can see the results of original sin: Death, realization of nakedness, pain of pregnancy increased and expulsion from paradise.

In the archeological record we can see that as the self awareness of our ancestors increased, especially so after becoming bipedal, that at some point or phase we became self aware enough to realise the implications of death and loss of self, and the shame of being naked. This lead these ancestors to start performing burial rituals and to wear clothes. There are many scientific papers discussing this and can be easily found by search engine or AI. There are also studies that discuss the implications of bipedalism on the birth canal and increased pain of pregnancy.

If we think about this, if increased self awareness correlates in impact between the Bible and archeology/evolution, it is then fitting to find that the life of Jesus, and a return to paradise involves a journey of selflessness and surrender of self, or even ego death. A return to innocence so to speak.

I like to think that original sin was the process where our ancestors gained enough self awareness to know and understand death, realise their nakedness and become responsible for their actions. There was was bliss in being oblivious to these things before then; a paradise. In following the selflessness of Jesus we can return to innocence. If the self becomes less important, death loses its sting, and eternal concepts like love become the new identity. Like being born again. I wont discuss the irony of how many of us twist the life of Jesus to seek an eternal self, and as a result believe what the serpent said instead.

2. Adolescence

There are studies (again, can easily be searched) that explain that a modern humans journey through adolescence is a snapshot of our mental development through evolution. As self awareness in a child progresses, we see the very same 'punishments' as in Genesis. From innocence to responsibility. From childhood bliss to the realization and shame of nakedness and the implications of death.

I believe this is what Jesus meant when he said: "Let the little children come to Me, and do not hinder them! For the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these" I think he meant and referred to their underdeveloped self awareness. A return to innocence. Yet many of us envision heavenly splendor as an eternal self.

3 Just Thinking

I wonder sometimes how many of us would be Christian, if it truly meant giving up the self. Would we be willing to give up the vivid consciousness and self awareness we have now? I wonder if that is the cross we must bear? Is it even possible for me, a person of flesh to reduce self interest so much that death becomes trivial. Is this the answer to the question of evil? Are we so mesmerized by the self (that may only be a mental construct) that we expect God to value a material construct the same? Maybe the value of life lies in the ability to display selflessness? Does it influence how we interpret the Bible, making us believe in the eternal self?

"For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it" This scripture changes for me. It tells me true life is found without the self.

Anyway, if you managed to get this far, thanks for reading. This is all just speculation, I leave objective things to academics and theologians. Sometimes I need to write things down and say them, or my fire becomes overwhelming.

P.S. Watch out, the self is a subtle beast, because we equate self importance preservation with good, yet it carries with it the pain of death and shame. Someone important proved otherwise, and proved that beast a murderer..

This would be an interesting discussion for Barbarian, as he is our resident evolutionist. He may be back in a few weeks, so I will tag him for this thread.

Barbarian.

 

[hawkman]

In the account in Genesis we can see the results of original sin: Death

My thoughts .
Adam's was already in a state of dying from birth , nothing changed about Adam once he was cast out of the Garden . To escape death Adam of would had to eat from the Tree of Life and he did not while he was in the garden everyday with the Tree of Life . People now walk this earth and will not partake of the Living Water that is freely offered just as the Tree of Life was freely offered to Adam .

Yes , God told Adam he would die but what did God also say ?

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

 

[Who Me]

I like to think that original sin was the process where our ancestors gained enough self awareness to know and understand death, realise their nakedness and become responsible for their actions.

You were right when you said you were not a theologian.
A repeated refrain in genesis 1 is that God saw that it was good.
In accepting that evolution is true you are saying that death is good.
Think about it, is death, as the bible says ' the last enemy ', is it good?

For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it" This scripture changes for me. It tells me true life is found without the self.

A failure to read what is written. Matthew 16:24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, ‘Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. 25 For whoever wants to save their life[f] will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it. 26 What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul? 27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.

Jesus is speaking to his disciples and saying that purpose and reality in life is found only through living as a Christian for Jesus.

You want a non literal interpretation of the bible, because where do you stop taking the bible literally?

Talking snakes, donkeys, burning bushes, whale/fish swallowing a man, 10 plagues, the dead coming to life etc etc etc.


Here a challenge.
Turn everything around and fry taking the bible literally., to look at evolution through the eyes of a creationist.
Or work backwards, if Jesus did rise from the dead, we're his other miracles equally true, the old Testament miracles also true until you reach genesis 1 did God, having done all those amazing miracles in the bible created in 6 literal days.

Try it.

 

[Fevertree]

You were right when you said you were not a theologian.
A repeated refrain in genesis 1 is that God saw that it was good.
In accepting that evolution is true you are saying that death is good.
Think about it, is death, as the bible says ' the last enemy ', is it good?

A failure to read what is written. Matthew 16:24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, ‘Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. 25 For whoever wants to save their life[f] will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it. 26 What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul? 27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.

Jesus is speaking to his disciples and saying that purpose and reality in life is found only through living as a Christian for Jesus.

You want a non literal interpretation of the bible, because where do you stop taking the bible literally?

Talking snakes, donkeys, burning bushes, whale/fish swallowing a man, 10 plagues, the dead coming to life etc etc etc.


Here a challenge.
Turn everything around and fry taking the bible literally., to look at evolution through the eyes of a creationist.
Or work backwards, if Jesus did rise from the dead, we're his other miracles equally true, the old Testament miracles also true until you reach genesis 1 did God, having done all those amazing miracles in the bible created in 6

I think part of my point was that everything was good, until we achieved higher self awareness. Just like how animals die and walk around naked, fight for their lives each day and live in blissful ignorance of their mortality and existential questions. But this means that to return to Eden we need to return to a less self concerned state, by following Jesus and his attitude toward his own life and body, which houses the self.

Studies show that brain damage and medication, even environment can change personality, making the self a construct of the brain. If the self is a product of the brain, it perishes with the brain.

I think that following Jesus and bearing the cross is the realization that the self cannot survive the body (flesh), but by becoming one with eternal concepts like love and selflessness, one escapes the sting of death because the self is not the priority. Whenever love or selflessness is expressed, you live, because that is what you became in unity with God, when born again. This is how Abraham is still living, how Daniel will rise when people exhibit the same qualities he had. But this idea is a heavy cross, since we prefer the serpents teaching that we can be ourselves and be so forever.

Just compare the watered down way many Christians follow Jesus, who owned almost nothing, did not marry or have kids, rejected influence and luxuries in the world, gave up our greatest motivator, the self, on the cross. Yet we eat and drink, marry and are given in marriage to fulfill the self every day and claim to be his followers. And we seek this for eternity. This sounds like the serpents way, and why our death is such a blow, and why we modify his way. I have speculated so far, but I am almost sure we will see His second coming, but not recognize it for this very reason. People are touchy and dogmatic about rules and what they believe because it attacks their prospect of eternal self.

I agree with you, that it complicates things when viewing Genesis as non literal, but I think it's worth exploring when Revelation (which many view as symbolic) refers to the dragon as the original serpent.

 

[Who Me]

I think part of my point was that everything was good, until we achieved higher self awareness.

Just where in Genesis 1 does it say anything about self awareness, other than following Adams fall he and Eve learnt about nudity?

From the passage it is clear that Adam was highly intelligent and knew when he saw it the answer to his need.
That implies a high level of self awareness.

 

[Fevertree]

Just where in Genesis 1 does it say anything about self awareness, other than following Adams fall he and Eve learnt about nudity?

From the passage it is clear that Adam was highly intelligent and knew when he saw it the answer to his need.
That implies a high level of self awareness.

That's what my first post is trying to establish, the correlation between the punishments and consequences of original sin and what we see with our ancestors in the archeological record regarding self awareness.

We realised we die, so death became relevant and our ancestors started performing burial ritual (you will surely die), we realised we were naked and started wearing clothes (they realised they were naked).

Very young people are intelligent, know different needs, but are not self aware enough to worry about nudity and death. And as I stated in OP, there are studies into our journey through adolescence being like a snapshot of our mental evolution.

"Who told you you were naked?" Meaning he wasn't self aware enough to know he was naked, and somebody would need to tell him, just like we instruct a child.

The big problem with a return to innocence is people use Christianity to escape the end of the self, to save themselves. The cross is easy to bear the way we practice Christianity because the reward is great, in fact, it is the same thing that deceived Eve - High awareness and eternal life.

“Skin for skin!” Satan replied. “A man will give all he has for his own life. But now stretch out your hand and strike his flesh and bones, and he will surely curse you to your face.”

I'm just pointing out the correlation for interest.

 

[Who Me]

Who told you you were naked?" Meaning he wasn't self aware enough to know he was naked, and somebody would need to tell him, just like we instruct a child.

The only point of relevance is that young children have no embarrassment at being naked. Adam and Eve were mature adults yet we're not embarrassed at being g naked until they disobeyed God clear Instruction.

They learnt about being naked, shame and when they heard the sound of God walking in the garden the learnt about fear.

How the conversation carried on from the question, who told you, is very interesting and quite telling.
There is no admitting that Adam had done wrong, it was " The Woman YOU gave me! "
Interesting because we still try hard to blame anyone or even anything for what is our fault.

The big problem with a return to innocence is people use Christianity to escape the end of the self, to save themselves

There is no return to innocence in Christianity, we live in the real world, living normal lives with the added strain that we are to live and work for the honour of our saviour.

Talk to non Christian friends colleagues, family about resisting temptation to do wrong. Explain what you mean and they will not understand why you are worrying about lustful thoughts, about being angry or envious or about cursing/swearing.
Sin is a petty thing to them.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Since the gigantic topic of Original Sin is mentioned in the title, I just wanna clarify that this term means the ORIGIN OF SIN from Adam, as sin entered the world through Adam (Rom. 5:12), all of our sins originated from Adam's fall. Many deniers deliberately twisted it into us being guilty of Adam's personal sin, that's deception from the devil.

 

[Fevertree]

The only point of relevance is that young children have no embarrassment at being naked. Adam and Eve were mature adults yet we're not embarrassed at being g naked until they disobeyed God clear Instruction.

They learnt about being naked, shame and when they heard the sound of God walking in the garden the learnt about fear.

How the conversation carried on from the question, who told you, is very interesting and quite telling.
There is no admitting that Adam had done wrong, it was " The Woman YOU gave me! "
Interesting because we still try hard to blame anyone or even anything for what is our fault.


There is no return to innocence in Christianity, we live in the real world, living normal lives with the added strain that we are to live and work for the honour of our saviour.

Talk to non Christian friends colleagues, family about resisting temptation to do wrong. Explain what you mean and they will not understand why you are worrying about lustful thoughts, about being angry or envious or about cursing/swearing.
Sin is a petty thing to them.

I made clear that this discussion was for those that are willing to consider a non literal view of Genesis for the sake of apologetics. This means things like Adam and Eve could refer not to individuals, but the human species at the time of a significant change in self awareness for example. So we will never be on the same page if you can't entertain that. Thanks for the reply.

 

[Who Me]

willing to consider a non literal view of Genesis for the sake of apologetics

Given that most atheists and agnostic reject the idea of the supernatural as a starting point. To conceded this at the start of a discussion is to shoot oneself in the foot.


Creation requires a supernatural originator, atheists need this pointing out to them and challenged to provide a scientific explanation as to how creation began.

 

[Fevertree]

Given that most atheists and agnostic reject the idea of the supernatural as a starting point. To conceded this at the start of a discussion is to shoot oneself in the foot.


Creation requires a supernatural originator, atheists need this pointing out to them and challenged to provide a scientific explanation as to how creation began.

I'm a devoted Christian, trying to find a place where science, reason and logic are not ignored, to make apologetics easier.

Haven't you read in Revelation that the dragon spews a river or flood after the woman and her child, but the earth saves them by swallowing it?

The earth is our foundation of understanding, reason, logic and grasp of reality. Just like it rose from the sea in the creation account in Genisis, how the ark landed on dry land, how the Israelite passed through the red sea on dry land, how they passed through the Jordan on dry land into the promised land, reason, logic and a grasp of reality prevents us from being deceived or lost in a supernatural world where anything is possible and subjective.

It can clearly be seen in the pressures on false religion, and even Christianity to change and adapt.

I believe in God, but I believe he works more in the human psyche than we allow ourselves to appreciate. Manifesting across diverse religions and inspiring similar stories and icons.

The point of this thread was simply to address what I see as correlation between archeology and the Bible. I did not want to be drawn into tangents because it draws me into my own world of hearsay, speculation and subjective things.

Do you think I can qualify as Christian if I don't subscribe to a literal Genesis, even if my life is devoted to following my Lord?

 

[Who Me]

science, reason and logic are not ignored,

An atheist scientist will say that properly understood they are not ignored, but that there is no place for the supernatural.
Yet Newton, Faraday, Kelvin, Pascal to name just a few Christians who were also scientists who combined Christianity, logic, reason and science.
It is the hostility to the idea of the supernatural that needs tackling.

One does not have to be a young earth creationist to be a Christian.

But it's worth pointing out that sin, man's alienation from God, the need of a saviour, marriage are all foundational upon genesis.