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[_ Old Earth _] Evolutionists Please Explain

John

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My brain hurts from trying to conceive how evolution produced these creatures.

But ask now the beasts, and they shall teach thee; and ask the fowls of the air, and they shall teach thee: Or speak to the Earth, and it shall tell thee: and the fishes of the sea shall declare unto thee. Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of the Lord hath wrought this? In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind. Job12:7-10



ttmelsb.jpg


Source: http://www.drdino.com/articles.php?spec=92

The example of the bombardier is probably given more often than any other example as a proof against evolution. This amazing insect has two sacs, one of which contains hydrogen peroxide, and the other contains hydroquinone. The beetle also has a third compartment into which these two substances are injecting when the beetle feels threatened. A third liquid, an enzyme, is then injected into this chamber and acts as a catalyst to cause this noxious fluid to heat up to near boiling and to shoot it out of an outlet duct with amazing accuracy at the offending animal. The hot chemical soup is shot through a sphincter controlled firing mechanism that is in itself quite amazing.

Not only is this a beautiful example of irreducible complexity, but it makes evolutionary theory seem even wackier than ever. Evolutionary theorist and intellectual lightweight Richard Dawkins has tried to say that this was simply nature making use of materials that it had around. Not only does this preposterous argument require that nature must have had forethought and design, but it fails to explain why these substances would be lying around in the beetle in the first place if they were not intended to be used as parts of a defense mechanism. Even in the ridiculously unlikely event that the beetle would evolve two chambers to contain otherwise useless liquids, it is even more absurd to propose that a third chamber for the catalyst, and a fourth chamber for the three to combine, would come into existence along with a highly sophisticated system of sphincters for a shooting mechanism all at the same time.

This beetle is a particularly good proof that evolutionists are stupid. They only stutter or babble irrelevantly when presented with this example. The only argument that I've even seen was from a numbskull (I believe that it was Dawkins) who was criticizing a creation scientists for leaving out the catalyst from his description. In other words he was arguing against the creationist view by pointing out that the whole apparatus was much more complicated than the creationist had stated, and that the impossibility of it having come into being by chance was even greater. Two chemicals were proof enough of design; three chemicals are even greater proof! We could use more enemies like Dawkins.

One would think that these wannabe scientists would get excited about such a proof and it might occur to them that if there were a designer, then their lives need not be empty, futile and completely pointless as they are now. They would then have a reason to pursue knowledge, instead of having wasted, useless lives geared toward the pursuit of erudite babbling that serves no purpose. What point is there in pursuing "knowledge" when they believe that their only outcome is to become one with the soil? Why would it matter to a person with such a belief what anyone believed? On the other hand, someone with a functioning brain would alter their worldview when faced with such strong evidence of creation. The evolutionist not only wastes his time with nonsense, but with nonsense that would have no value to anyone even if it were true. What makes this even more illogical is that they deify nature anyway. By positing that nature designed such creatures, they have posited that nature is an intelligent force.

How could a non-intelligent force design anything? They have posited a designed universe with an impersonal designer that doesn't think or judge. What does that do to their claim that there is no creator at all? Either the world came about by chance or it was designed. They seem to want it both ways, but of course, their real reason that they want to deny God is that they hate what is good and those who do good. Logic and reason take second place to that hatred. This is the true mark of a reprobate mind, and a very undeveloped one at that. The bombardier beetle is another thing for which we can thank God, because they make utter fools out of evolutionists.
 
What is the point of this article? Irreducible complexity?
 
how could these beetles be, how and from what did they evolve?
 
There are a bunch of studies on this...these are just a few of them:

Dettner, Konrad, 1987. Chemosystematics and evolution of beetle chemical defenses. Annual Review of Entomology 32: 17-48.

Eisner, Thomas, T.H. Jones, D.J. Aneshansley, W.R. Tschinkel, R.E. Silberglied, J. Meinwald, 1977. Chemistry of defensive secretions of bombardier beetles (Brachinini, Metriini, Ozaenini, Paussini). J. Insect Physiol. 23: 1382-1386.

Moore, Barry P., 1979. Chemical defense in carabis and its bearing on phylogeny. In Erwin, T.L., G.E. Ball, D.L. Whitehead, & A.L. Halpern, eds, Carabid beetles: Their evolution, natural history, and classification. Junk, The Hague. pp. 193-203.
 
johnmuise said:
My brain hurts from trying to conceive how evolution produced these creatures.

But ask now the beasts, and they shall teach thee; and ask the fowls of the air, and they shall teach thee: Or speak to the Earth, and it shall tell thee: and the fishes of the sea shall declare unto thee. Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of the Lord hath wrought this? In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind. Job12:7-10



ttmelsb.jpg


Source: http://www.drdino.com/articles.php?spec=92

The example of the bombardier is probably given more often than any other example as a proof against evolution. This amazing insect has two sacs, one of which contains hydrogen peroxide, and the other contains hydroquinone. The beetle also has a third compartment into which these two substances are injecting when the beetle feels threatened. A third liquid, an enzyme, is then injected into this chamber and acts as a catalyst to cause this noxious fluid to heat up to near boiling and to shoot it out of an outlet duct with amazing accuracy at the offending animal. The hot chemical soup is shot through a sphincter controlled firing mechanism that is in itself quite amazing.

Not only is this a beautiful example of irreducible complexity, but it makes evolutionary theory seem even wackier than ever. Evolutionary theorist and intellectual lightweight Richard Dawkins has tried to say that this was simply nature making use of materials that it had around. Not only does this preposterous argument require that nature must have had forethought and design, but it fails to explain why these substances would be lying around in the beetle in the first place if they were not intended to be used as parts of a defense mechanism. Even in the ridiculously unlikely event that the beetle would evolve two chambers to contain otherwise useless liquids, it is even more absurd to propose that a third chamber for the catalyst, and a fourth chamber for the three to combine, would come into existence along with a highly sophisticated system of sphincters for a shooting mechanism all at the same time.

This beetle is a particularly good proof that evolutionists are stupid. They only stutter or babble irrelevantly when presented with this example. The only argument that I've even seen was from a numbskull (I believe that it was Dawkins) who was criticizing a creation scientists for leaving out the catalyst from his description. In other words he was arguing against the creationist view by pointing out that the whole apparatus was much more complicated than the creationist had stated, and that the impossibility of it having come into being by chance was even greater. Two chemicals were proof enough of design; three chemicals are even greater proof! We could use more enemies like Dawkins.

One would think that these wannabe scientists would get excited about such a proof and it might occur to them that if there were a designer, then their lives need not be empty, futile and completely pointless as they are now. They would then have a reason to pursue knowledge, instead of having wasted, useless lives geared toward the pursuit of erudite babbling that serves no purpose. What point is there in pursuing "knowledge" when they believe that their only outcome is to become one with the soil? Why would it matter to a person with such a belief what anyone believed? On the other hand, someone with a functioning brain would alter their worldview when faced with such strong evidence of creation. The evolutionist not only wastes his time with nonsense, but with nonsense that would have no value to anyone even if it were true. What makes this even more illogical is that they deify nature anyway. By positing that nature designed such creatures, they have posited that nature is an intelligent force.

How could a non-intelligent force design anything? They have posited a designed universe with an impersonal designer that doesn't think or judge. What does that do to their claim that there is no creator at all? Either the world came about by chance or it was designed. They seem to want it both ways, but of course, their real reason that they want to deny God is that they hate what is good and those who do good. Logic and reason take second place to that hatred. This is the true mark of a reprobate mind, and a very undeveloped one at that. The bombardier beetle is another thing for which we can thank God, because they make utter fools out of evolutionists.

Whoever wrote that article laced it with a ton of unnecessary ad hominems. I can understand a few, but most of it is pretty much a character attack.

Sparing the character attacks, you make one main general claim:

1) Dawkins explains complexity with further complexity by saying a catalyst was needed.

If you actually read or saw his explanation. You would know this was NOT the point he was making. Here is a video of him specifically addressing the beetle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=daONxbSR9WE

The whole point was that the creationist claim of an "explosion" would be dependent on the bug making ultra concentrated hydrogen peroxide right away. Assuming the bug weakly made the peroxide, even without a complex mechanism of a directional jet, it wouldn't explode. All it would need is a relatively simple opening such as an exocrine gland (which countless animals have for numerous purposes). The two main chemicals involved here could have been traditionally excreted which (in itself) would be evolutionarily useful in evading a predator.

Exactly when a catalyst was introduced into the equation is not known. For that matter, not much is known about how it withstands the internal temperatures within the mixing chamber. It's always nice to see a creationist throw in the towel and proclaim "God did it" before all of the data is in. No surprise here.

The creationist immediately introduces a false dichotomy from data like this, somehow implying that since evolution hasn't explained it adequately yet that creationism is somehow "supported." Well, in the world of science, we let the data speak for itself. We can confidently say "We don't know yet" without really caring whether or not a specific conception of evolution will ultimately be supported.


Now answer me this:

I have not yet seen a SINGLE creationist adequately respond to the biggest problem of irreducible complexity:

1) If something has a certain degree of complexity, it must be intelligently designed
2) God is more complex than the thing that has that degree of complexity requiring ID
CONCLUSION: God must need to be intelligently designed himself by a more complex thing.

If God is not susceptible to this conclusion, then there is not a reason why less complex creatures themselves couldn't have been brought about by other means.

Your argument is SELF DEFEATING.
 
jwu said:
What is the point of this article? Irreducible complexity?

This is just one example of hundred of things evolution can't explain.
 
johnmuise said:
jwu said:
What is the point of this article? Irreducible complexity?

This is just one example of hundred of things evolution can't explain.
There will always be things which are not explained as of yet - that doesn't mean that they never will be.
IC however is not one of them. The ToE includes mechanisms such as exaption and scaffolding which can result in the formation of IC systems.

According to Michael Behe's (one of the main proponents of ID) own math which he put up at the Dover trial, thousands of simple IC systems evolve on earth every second.
 
jwu said:
johnmuise said:
jwu said:
What is the point of this article? Irreducible complexity?

This is just one example of hundred of things evolution can't explain.
There will always be things which are not explained as of yet - that doesn't mean that they never will be.
IC however is not one of them. The ToE includes mechanisms such as exaption and scaffolding which can result in the formation of IC systems.

According to Michael Behe's (one of the main proponents of ID) own math which he put up at the Dover trial, thousands of simple IC systems evolve on earth every second.

Scientists see the errors in their own math every single day. ;-) Then of course they have to admit that their previous theories weren't true as they do every century. But that's what happens when man jumps to conclusions and tries to defy God. He always looks foolish. ;-)
 
CCC 159 - Faith and science:

"Though faith is above reason, there can never be any real discrepancy between faith and reason. Since the same God who reveals mysteries and infuses faith has bestowed the light of reason on the human mind, God cannot deny himself, nor can truth ever contradict truth." "Consequently, methodical research in all branches of knowledge, provided it is carried out in a truly scientific manner and does not override moral laws, can never conflict with the faith, because the things of the world and the things of faith derive from the same God. The humble and persevering investigator of the secrets of nature is being led, as it were, by the hand of God in spite of himself, for it is God, the conserver of all things, who made them what they are."

Source(s):
Catechism Of The Catholic Church
http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1 ... 3.htm#art2
 
Catholic Crusader said:
CCC 159 - Faith and science:

"Though faith is above reason, there can never be any real discrepancy between faith and reason. Since the same God who reveals mysteries and infuses faith has bestowed the light of reason on the human mind, God cannot deny himself, nor can truth ever contradict truth." "Consequently, methodical research in all branches of knowledge, provided it is carried out in a truly scientific manner and does not override moral laws, can never conflict with the faith, because the things of the world and the things of faith derive from the same God. The humble and persevering investigator of the secrets of nature is being led, as it were, by the hand of God in spite of himself, for it is God, the conserver of all things, who made them what they are."

Source(s):
Catechism Of The Catholic Church
http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1 ... 3.htm#art2

Sorry, but 1 Corinthians 3:19 says; "For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight."

Isaiah 2:22, "Stop trusting in man who has but a breath in his nostrils. Of what account is he?"

Only the wisdom that comes from God can be completely trusted. :-)

So any belief that man has that disagrees with God is false. Jesus said; "He who is not with me is against me." one cannot both believe God and disagree with Him at the same time. Scientists disagree with God about the creation of the world, how man was formed, how life was formed and the age of the world. So man is wrong and God is right. :-)
 
Heidi said:
Sorry, but 1 Corinthians 3:19 says; "For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight."
So, are you saying that whoever discovered that water is two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen is wrong and a fool?

Truth is truth. Therefore, whoever discovered that water is two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen discovered a truth of God's creation. The verses you cite have nothing to do with this or my previous post.
 
Catholic Crusader said:
Heidi said:
Sorry, but 1 Corinthians 3:19 says; "For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight."
So, are you saying that whoever discovered that water is two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen is wrong and a fool?

Truth is truth. Therefore, whoever discovered that water is two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen discovered a truth of God's creation. The verses you cite have nothing to do with this or my previous post.

It sounds like you're trying to disagree with that verse. Are you? :roll:

I said that anyone who disagrees with God is wrong. I also listed the theories that disagree with God. The components of water is not one of them. Anyone who understands the way God created the universe is using God's wisdom, not man's wisdom.
 
Heidi said:
...I said that anyone who disagrees with God is wrong.....

And that is also what my first post says. Perhaps you misread it.
 
Heidi said:
Scientists see the errors in their own math every single day. ;-) Then of course they have to admit that their previous theories weren't true as they do every century. But that's what happens when man jumps to conclusions and tries to defy God. He always looks foolish. ;-)

Yeah! Stupid scientists always getting things wrong!

One time, I saw a scientist make a mistake, and then another scientist kicked him in the nuts! Worst of all, neither scientist believed in God! I knew I had to get out of there, so I threw my saddle over Jesus, and I rode him into the sunset under a rainbow of love from the trinity.
 
But if you were riding Jesus, when does Jesus get to ride his trademark raptor?
 
Dunzo said:
But if you were riding Jesus, when does Jesus get to ride his trademark raptor?

Raptors don't exist! During the flood, water distorted certain bird bones as they soaked up water and got larger. Stop believing in fairy tales Dunzo.
 
Jayls5 said:
Dunzo said:
But if you were riding Jesus, when does Jesus get to ride his trademark raptor?

Raptors don't exist! During the flood, water distorted certain bird bones as they soaked up water and got larger. Stop believing in fairy tales Dunzo.
If there is anything worse than bad science, its fundies who read the Bible in a ridiculous literalist fashion that make the rest of us look like morons.

That statement is so sophmoric I can't believe you had the nerve to post it. Or was it meant to be a joke?
 
johnmuise said:
The bible should be taken literally.
So, in 2 Samuel 22:11, when he says "He mounted the cherubim and flew; he soared on the wings of the wind", are we to assume the cherubim, who are angels, actually "fly", and are we to believe that air molecules have wings? There is a difference between truth as put forrth in the ancient semitic style, and scientific facts.
 
Catholic Crusader said:
johnmuise said:
The bible should be taken literally.
So, in 2 Samuel 22:11, when he says "He mounted the cherubim and flew; he soared on the wings of the wind", are we to assume the cherubim, who are angels, actually "fly", and are we to believe that air molecules have wings? There is a difference between truth as put forrth in the ancient semitic style, and scientific facts.

It sounds like you're faith is in science which comprises people who believe what they can see, not what is unseen. The bible tells us to fix our minds on what is unseen, not what's seen. Scientists live in the secular world run by Satan. Christians live on faith from God. :-)
 
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