Faith

[elijah23]

One of the principles of Christianity is that we are to have faith in the Lord (we are to trust him):

Jesus immediately reached out his hand and caught him, saying to him, "O man of little faith, why did you doubt?" Matt 14:31 RSV

Why is it so many people seem to run around believing terrible things are going to happen to them?

 

[Tina]

With easy accessibility to media and the internet these days that never fails to report disasters and crisis on a daily basis, people get distracted from the Word of God when they start focusing on this chaotic world. Despair and panic begins to take root taking the place of faith and trust in God. But Christ says "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world†(John 16:33). We are to "cast all our cares on Him" (not on this world) (1 Peter 5:7), and always rejoice in the Lord, and be prayerful !


Philippians 4:4-9
Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again: Rejoice! Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near. Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable — if anything is excellent or praiseworthy — think about such things. Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me — put it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you.

 

[Former Christian]

Elijah23

What Tina said!

The world is the ocean that Jesus has to pull us from and point out that we have so little faith and and ask why we doubt. It's a shame to us to find that we have the little faith of Peter. He had little faith in the beginning of his growth in Christ. We have to ask ourselves, why do we have that same degree of faith after being in Christ so long? It might be understandable in a babe in Christ. But I get the impression you're referring to those who are supposed to be mature in the faith, who show by their own acts that they may not be as mature as they should be. What you're seeing is the common problem of not walking by the Spirit.

FC

 

[Tina]

Former Christian, why are you a former christian ?? :biglol

 

[Former Christian]

Tina

“Former Christian, why are you a former christian ??â€


I began as an Atheist. Then I believed in the existence of God and in his revelation about the condition of man and what he has provided to remedy that condition. I believed the gospel. Not one of the various versions of the gospel preached in Christianity. But the gospel of Jesus Christ as preached by the NT writers. I believed through something within, that I later came to understand to be the Holy Spirit. Then I began to attend a Christian Church. And I was water baptized as an expression of my belief in God and in his remedy, the remedy for my condition as one who is in Adam. Simultaneously, I was baptized into Christ by the Holy Spirit. And as I began to believe what that Christian Church taught, I slowly became a Christian. In between then and now is a long story.

Eventually, I realized that Christianity is a man-made religion, that it is human in nature and denominational in character. I realized that there’s no denomination in Christianity that is “the True Churchâ€. I realized that the term Christian was never intended to be a self-denotation for those who are in Christ. When I finally realized that to be one who is in Christ and one who is a Christian is a delusion, that it’s a compromise that is a practical attempt to serve two masters, I became a former Christian. Today, I am only one who is in Christ.

FC

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Tina

“Former Christian, why are you a former christian ??â€


I began as an Atheist. Then I believed in the existence of God and in his revelation about the condition of man and what he has provided to remedy that condition. I believed the gospel. Not one of the various versions of the gospel preached in Christianity. But the gospel of Jesus Christ as preached by the NT writers. I believed through something within, that I later came to understand to be the Holy Spirit. Then I began to attend a Christian Church. And I was water baptized as an expression of my belief in God and in his remedy, the remedy for my condition as one who is in Adam. Simultaneously, I was baptized into Christ by the Holy Spirit. And as I began to believe what that Christian Church taught, I slowly became a Christian. In between then and now is a long story.

Eventually, I realized that Christianity is a man-made religion, that it is human in nature and denominational in character. I realized that there’s no denomination in Christianity that is “the True Churchâ€. I realized that the term Christian was never intended to be a self-denotation for those who are in Christ. When I finally realized that to be one who is in Christ and one who is a Christian is a delusion, that it’s a compromise that is a practical attempt to serve two masters, I became a former Christian. Today, I am only one who is in Christ.

FC

I may be wrong, but I suspect that 'Former Christian' is not using the buzz words like 'hellenized' and 'western mindset' commonly associated with his particular beliefs about faith in Christ.

 

[Tina]

I began as an Atheist. Then I believed in the existence of God and in his revelation about the condition of man and what he has provided to remedy that condition. I believed the gospel. Not one of the various versions of the gospel preached in Christianity. But the gospel of Jesus Christ as preached by the NT writers. I believed through something within, that I later came to understand to be the Holy Spirit. Then I began to attend a Christian Church. And I was water baptized as an expression of my belief in God and in his remedy, the remedy for my condition as one who is in Adam. Simultaneously, I was baptized into Christ by the Holy Spirit. And as I began to believe what that Christian Church taught, I slowly became a Christian. In between then and now is a long story.

Eventually, I realized that Christianity is a man-made religion, that it is human in nature and denominational in character. I realized that there’s no denomination in Christianity that is “the True Churchâ€. I realized that the term Christian was never intended to be a self-denotation for those who are in Christ. When I finally realized that to be one who is in Christ and one who is a Christian is a delusion, that it’s a compromise that is a practical attempt to serve two masters, I became a former Christian. Today, I am only one who is in Christ.

FC

So ... you started off as an Atheist, came to "know" God .... and ended up being a former Christian, yet claim to be "only one who is in Christ" !



.... Interesting ..... :transformer

 

[Former Christian]

Tina

Interesting? In what way?

FC

 

[Tina]

When I finally realized that to be one who is in Christ and one who is a Christian is a delusion, that it’s a compromise that is a practical attempt to serve two masters, I became a former Christian. Today, I am only one who is in Christ.

FC

Can you elaborate what you mean by


1. serve two masters

2. today you are the only one who is in Christ

 

[Former Christian]

Tina

1. serve two masters


Matthew 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
(KJV)

This principle applies to more than serving God and mammon. In my case, as a Christian I was serving two masters, Jesus Christ and Christianity. Or so I thought. Actually I was serving Christianity. It was Christianity I was following, rather than Jesus Christ, the one that Christianity claims to follow by virtue of its own name, Christianity. I was one who had begun by the Spirit and was trying to be made perfect by the flesh (Gal 3:3). I was following the interpretations of whatever denomination I was in at the time, as well as some interpretations of my own. I was listening to Christianity instead of Jesus Christ. And I went through several Christian denominations and read a lot of Christian history and doctrinal works before I realized something was wrong with this picture. But, no doubt by the grace of God, I finally realized that as a Christian I wasn’t actually following Christ. I was following a man-made religion. Or more apt, man-made denominations of a man-religion. I realized I was as a child, being

“tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive”
(Ephesians 4:14 KJV)

And please don’t think I’m necessarily referring to those who are in Christ here. Few of those would go to that extreme. Many among the majority would, however.

But I realized that through the practice of biblical interpretation so common in Christianity, and in myself at the time, that I was,

“Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
(2 Timothy 3:7 KJV)

When I first came to this realization, I thought I was abandoned by God. And then I began to think that God didn’t exist to abandon me and that I was doing this to myself. At that point God intervened. At least, that is what I currently believe. God showed me that I was walking as the nations,

“in the vanity of their mind, having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.”
(Ephesians 4:17-19 KJV)

That’s pretty serious. Then God showed me what Paul was really saying when he wrote,

“But ye have not so learned Christ; if so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: that ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; and be renewed in the spirit of your mind; and that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.”
(Ephesians 4:20-24 KJV)

It was at that point that I really began to be taught by Jesus Christ, instead of the man-made religion. The old man is just fallen Adamic humanity. The new man is the new creation (2 Cor 5:17), the new humanity in Christ.

And then this,

“Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour:.”
(Ephesians 4:25 KJV)

became real to me. As Christians, of which I was one at that time, we are lying to one another through our promotion of our biblical interpretations. Because the biblical interpretations are NOT the truth. They are opinions. And even if one opinion is actually the truth, that would imply that all other opinions are not the truth, and thus are lies. And it then becomes the responsibility of all the ones who are lying to put away their lying. But in Christianity, where opinions are not just tolerated, but are part and parcel of the fabric of denominationalism, of the authority of each denomination, to be able to distinguish between truth and fantasy is not possible.

I’ve already heard the variations of the Christianity interpretation of these verses that is far different from what I have shared above. They say that the verses that follow make what they believe is my personal interpretation impossible. They wish to defend their denominationalism and their own practice of biblical interpretation, and to make me an Atheist in the process. Better I’m an Atheist, then their practice and their resulting interpretations be wrong. Probably not consciously. But that would be the end result if I agreed that they were right.

If I believed that what I believe the bible is actually saying is nothing more than an opinion, why should I continue to believe in an opinion? Why should I believe in the opinions of others. Especially in light of the common consensus that the only way to understand the bible is through one of the many methods of biblical interpretation?

Biblical interpreters can’t grasp an obvious fact. Common sense really. That if the bible can only be understood through the, rather a, practice of interpretation, then the bible is nothing more than a man-made document, compiled by men. Just as man-made as is Christianity itself. A document filled with lies because of the claims of the writers to be witnesses of supernatural reality. Though probably most biblical writers didn’t actually see what they were saying as lies. But they were interpretations of what they experienced nevertheless, and wrong interpretations at that. The bible becomes a document for the educated to discern whether there’s any value to be had therein. And many such discernments there have been in Christianity to feed the adversarial flesh in man.

That is the obvious ultimate conclusion if the practice of biblical interpretation is valid. Because there hasn’t been another addition to the bible or any verifiable evidence of the supernatural in two millennia. Other than the interpretations considered the ongoing revelation of God by certain denominations, and those seemingly miraculous events that have been determined to be miraculous by interpretation.

I believe that Christianity is a man-made religion. And most who realize that equate the bible with Christianity and thus reject them both. I was led, yes I believe I was led, to realize that Christianity and the bible are two separate things. So I continue to believe that the bible is, not the Word of God, only Jesus Christ and God himself is the Word of God, but that it is a document revealed and compiled by God for the purpose of being used by Jesus Christ to teach the ones who are in Christ through the Spirit of God.

Jesus Christ can only teach those who have an open mind to receive his teaching. And he can only teach those who are in Christ who also walk by the Spirit. In my case, as a Christian, I had an open mind, and walked by the Spirit to the extent that I could considering the conditions I was in as a Christian. Got me into more trouble with denominational authorities than you may be able to imagine. But that is why I was able to realize certain things that the biblical interpreters could not. Some may be walking by the Spirit just as I did. But they aren’t open minded except to learn the next new interpretation, usually of their own fabrication. Effectively, that is the same as a closed mind to whatever Jesus Christ might reveal to them or teach them.

“for we are members one of another”
(Ephesians 4:25 KJV)

Paul had already said there is one body (Eph 4:4). And he had already written about how the ekklesia are to express that one body on the earth (Eph 4:11-16). What he is writing in verses 17 and following is simply a continuation of the application for that expression.

The new humanity that is in Christ is a humanity that is part of the Body of Christ. There is a supernatural oneness or unity in the Body through the Holy Spirit. Which is why Paul had said, “Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace” (Eph 4:3). The old humanity in Adam is individualistic, and can only achieve oneness or unity by means of natural organization with authoritative laws or doctrines that bind all concerned. Like nations and social clubs. Can you see which is Christianity?


2. today you are the only one who is in Christ


You misunderstood. When I said “Today, I am only one who is in Christ.”, you misread it to say “Today, I am THE only one who is in Christ.“ You interpreted what I said. A good example of how biblical interpreters understand the bible. For some it is a conscience act. For others it’s inadvertent. As I’m sure was the case here.

I don’t believe that I’m the only one who is in Christ. I believe there are many in Christianity who are in Christ. But the majority are not. The majority simply follow a philosophy, their own or of one of the denominations. They are religious, but they aren’t in Christ. They’re like the Pharisees who constantly opposed Jesus in the first century. The only difference between the majority of Christians and the Christians who are in Christ is that the ones who are in Christ are in Christ. Outwardly, the difference is not always discernable.

I no longer refer to myself as a Christian, simply because I no longer consider myself a Christian or a part of Christianity. Ergo, former Christian. I now only refer to myself as one who is in Christ.

FC

 

[Elijah674]

Tina

1. serve two masters


Matthew 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
(KJV)

This principle applies to more than serving God and mammon. In my case, as a Christian I was serving two masters, Jesus Christ and Christianity. Or so I thought. Actually I was serving Christianity. It was Christianity I was following, rather than Jesus Christ, the one that Christianity claims to follow by virtue of its own name, Christianity. I was one who had begun by the Spirit and was trying to be made perfect by the flesh (Gal 3:3). I was following the interpretations of whatever denomination I was in at the time, as well as some interpretations of my own. I was listening to Christianity instead of Jesus Christ. And I went through several Christian denominations and read a lot of Christian history and doctrinal works before I realized something was wrong with this picture. But, no doubt by the grace of God, I finally realized that as a Christian I wasn’t actually following Christ. I was following a man-made religion. Or more apt, man-made denominations of a man-religion. I realized I was as a child, being

“tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceiveâ€
(Ephesians 4:14 KJV)

And please don’t think I’m necessarily referring to those who are in Christ here. Few of those would go to that extreme. Many among the majority would, however.

But I realized that through the practice of biblical interpretation so common in Christianity, and in myself at the time, that I was,

“Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.â€
(2 Timothy 3:7 KJV)

When I first came to this realization, I thought I was abandoned by God. And then I began to think that God didn’t exist to abandon me and that I was doing this to myself. At that point God intervened. At least, that is what I currently believe. God showed me that I was walking as the nations,

“in the vanity of their mind, having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.â€
(Ephesians 4:17-19 KJV)

That’s pretty serious. Then God showed me what Paul was really saying when he wrote,

“But ye have not so learned Christ; if so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: that ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; and be renewed in the spirit of your mind; and that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.â€
(Ephesians 4:20-24 KJV)

It was at that point that I really began to be taught by Jesus Christ, instead of the man-made religion. The old man is just fallen Adamic humanity. The new man is the new creation (2 Cor 5:17), the new humanity in Christ.

And then this,

“Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour:.â€
(Ephesians 4:25 KJV)

became real to me. As Christians, of which I was one at that time, we are lying to one another through our promotion of our biblical interpretations. Because the biblical interpretations are NOT the truth. They are opinions. And even if one opinion is actually the truth, that would imply that all other opinions are not the truth, and thus are lies. And it then becomes the responsibility of all the ones who are lying to put away their lying. But in Christianity, where opinions are not just tolerated, but are part and parcel of the fabric of denominationalism, of the authority of each denomination, to be able to distinguish between truth and fantasy is not possible.

I’ve already heard the variations of the Christianity interpretation of these verses that is far different from what I have shared above. They say that the verses that follow make what they believe is my personal interpretation impossible. They wish to defend their denominationalism and their own practice of biblical interpretation, and to make me an Atheist in the process. Better I’m an Atheist, then their practice and their resulting interpretations be wrong. Probably not consciously. But that would be the end result if I agreed that they were right.

If I believed that what I believe the bible is actually saying is nothing more than an opinion, why should I continue to believe in an opinion? Why should I believe in the opinions of others. Especially in light of the common consensus that the only way to understand the bible is through one of the many methods of biblical interpretation?

Biblical interpreters can’t grasp an obvious fact. Common sense really. That if the bible can only be understood through the, rather a, practice of interpretation, then the bible is nothing more than a man-made document, compiled by men. Just as man-made as is Christianity itself. A document filled with lies because of the claims of the writers to be witnesses of supernatural reality. Though probably most biblical writers didn’t actually see what they were saying as lies. But they were interpretations of what they experienced nevertheless, and wrong interpretations at that. The bible becomes a document for the educated to discern whether there’s any value to be had therein. And many such discernments there have been in Christianity to feed the adversarial flesh in man.

That is the obvious ultimate conclusion if the practice of biblical interpretation is valid. Because there hasn’t been another addition to the bible or any verifiable evidence of the supernatural in two millennia. Other than the interpretations considered the ongoing revelation of God by certain denominations, and those seemingly miraculous events that have been determined to be miraculous by interpretation.

I believe that Christianity is a man-made religion. And most who realize that equate the bible with Christianity and thus reject them both. I was led, yes I believe I was led, to realize that Christianity and the bible are two separate things. So I continue to believe that the bible is, not the Word of God, only Jesus Christ and God himself is the Word of God, but that it is a document revealed and compiled by God for the purpose of being used by Jesus Christ to teach the ones who are in Christ through the Spirit of God.

Jesus Christ can only teach those who have an open mind to receive his teaching. And he can only teach those who are in Christ who also walk by the Spirit. In my case, as a Christian, I had an open mind, and walked by the Spirit to the extent that I could considering the conditions I was in as a Christian. Got me into more trouble with denominational authorities than you may be able to imagine. But that is why I was able to realize certain things that the biblical interpreters could not. Some may be walking by the Spirit just as I did. But they aren’t open minded except to learn the next new interpretation, usually of their own fabrication. Effectively, that is the same as a closed mind to whatever Jesus Christ might reveal to them or teach them.

“for we are members one of anotherâ€
(Ephesians 4:25 KJV)

Paul had already said there is one body (Eph 4:4). And he had already written about how the ekklesia are to express that one body on the earth (Eph 4:11-16). What he is writing in verses 17 and following is simply a continuation of the application for that expression.

The new humanity that is in Christ is a humanity that is part of the Body of Christ. There is a supernatural oneness or unity in the Body through the Holy Spirit. Which is why Paul had said, “Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace†(Eph 4:3). The old humanity in Adam is individualistic, and can only achieve oneness or unity by means of natural organization with authoritative laws or doctrines that bind all concerned. Like nations and social clubs. Can you see which is Christianity?


2. today you are the only one who is in Christ


You misunderstood. When I said “Today, I am only one who is in Christ.â€, you misread it to say “Today, I am THE only one who is in Christ.“ You interpreted what I said. A good example of how biblical interpreters understand the bible. For some it is a conscience act. For others it’s inadvertent. As I’m sure was the case here.

I don’t believe that I’m the only one who is in Christ. I believe there are many in Christianity who are in Christ. But the majority are not. The majority simply follow a philosophy, their own or of one of the denominations. They are religious, but they aren’t in Christ. They’re like the Pharisees who constantly opposed Jesus in the first century. The only difference between the majority of Christians and the Christians who are in Christ is that the ones who are in Christ are in Christ. Outwardly, the difference is not always discernable.

I no longer refer to myself as a Christian, simply because I no longer consider myself a Christian or a part of Christianity. Ergo, former Christian. I now only refer to myself as one who is in Christ.

FC

There are many that believe as you do. And 'i' agree with you, that they are not Christian at present. At least they are not following Christ yet. Here below is His Words...

Matt. 18
[14] Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.[15] Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

[16] But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

[17] And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

[18] Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Please do not think that this is meant as personal from me to you. For we were not even here when Christ gave this truth. Yet, it is His truth.

And if as He also documents in Rev. 2:5..
[5] Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

And this was the whole of the church [Virgin Candlestick] who would be responsible to be Doctrinally Obedient & lovingly kind. (compare Rev. 17:1-5 actual true prophecy)

So as 'i' see it FAITH has to be the whole 'Loving' working package! (Matt. 4:4) Otherwise we are what I term.. a loose cannon, as was another who was at one time in heaven.

And FAITH?? James leaves NO doubts of its content!
James 2
[26] For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

So, there is NO way to be a go it alone doctrine with faith alone as 'i' see it.

--Elijah

 

[Tina]

Former Christian,

You almost sound like you have been "traumatized" by denomintions....
You seem to equate denominations with Christianity, but if you are still a believer in Christ you are a Christian, not a former Christian. No believer is going to get saved based on his denomination but based on his personal relationship with Christ which I assume you have embraced.

Thanks for sharing anyway, never expected that. I do find it odd however, that you choose to believe that the bible is not the Word of God yet quote many scriptures out of it to state your points.

But I must admit that I agree with you to a certain extent with regards to denominational pride and differences. I hate it too! Though the Bible may appear like an overwhelmingly challenging book for humans to understand, let's look on the bright side - that whatever fundamental truths we need to know about salvation and Christian living have been made easy enough for man to understand and embrace and I guess that's all that matters. I don't believe anyone is going to lose salvation by belonging to a certain church or denomination or getting his non-salvific facts wrong through misinterpretations of the Bible.

 

[Former Christian]

Elijah674

“There are many that believe as you do. And 'i' agree with you, that they are not Christian at present. At least they are not following Christ yet.â€

I think there may be a fundamental difference in our thinking. You seem to be under the misunderstanding that I consider myself a “true Christianâ€. I do not. I don’t consider myself a Christian at all.

To Christians, being a “Christian†and being “in Christ†are synonymous. They are NOT synonymous in my mind. Being a Christian is being a part of a religion. A man-made religion. Being in Christ is something else entirely. One who is in Christ may also be a Christian. But being a Christian does not automatically mean that the Christian is in Christ. To me, there are two fundamental types of Christian. Those who are in Christ, and those who are not. But whether or not Christians are in Christ, they all are Christians.

I think I understand what you’re trying to convey. And I appreciate it. I just want the matter to be clear. That which is made clear is harder for the interpreters to interpret. And being one who opposes the practice of interpretation, whether of what I say or what the bible says, I’m all for anything that makes the interpreters job more difficult.

FC

 

[Former Christian]

Tina

“You almost sound like you have been "traumatized" by denomintions.... â€

I haven’t been “traumatizedâ€. To be traumatized is to be “subject to lasting shock as a result of an emotionally disturbing experience or physical injury.†(Oxford Dictionary) If I had been that traumatized, I would be an Atheist, not just a former Christian. I would be a Richard Dawkins kind of Atheist. I would say to you, “don’t make me angry, you wouldn’t like me when I’m angryâ€. And as far as Christians are concerned, I would always be angry. So it wouldn’t take much if anything for you to make me angry. I wouldn’t last long on a Christian moderated forum. But the fact is, I haven’t been traumatized, “by denominations†or by any particular denomination.


“You seem to equate denominations with Christianityâ€

Of course I do. Christianity is composed of Christian denominations. One can’t ignore the facts. The Roman Catholic Church, the Southern Baptist Church, the Jehovah’s Witnesses organization; these are all denominations of Christianity. If you’re meeting or worshipping with a Christian Church, its a part of a denomination of Christianity, or a denomination of Christianity in its own right. One can’t arbitrarily separate Christianity from its own character. Any more than one can separate you from your character. It’s best to call a spade a spade. A spade by any other name is still a spade.


“but if you are still a believer in Christ you are a Christian, not a former Christian.â€

Your definition of a believer in Christ is a Christian. I assume that the reverse is also true. That a Christian, probably to you “a true Christianâ€, is a believer in Christ. Well, I can only say that according to those definitions, I’m neither a believer nor a Christian. For I don’t equate the two at all. I am what I claim to be. I’m a former Christian who is in Christ. I’m sorry if that makes no sense to you. Maybe it will one day.


“No believer is going to get saved based on his denomination but based on his personal relationship with Christ which I assume you have embraced.â€

I think we can agree that no one will be saved based on believing in a Christian denomination as the source of salvation.

To me, a personal relationship with Jesus Christ entails first of all knowing by revelation of God who Jesus Christ really is. Not knowing who he is according to our own thinking. It entails being taught by Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit. Not being taught or teaching oneself a philosophy through the practice of any kind of interpretation. It entails allowing Jesus to teach us through his using the bible to teach us. Not allowing ourselves or anyone else to use the bible to teach us through the practice of biblical interpretation. It entails following what Jesus teaches. Not following an interpretation, personal or otherwise, of what Jesus teaches. It entails worshipping God with Jesus, not worshipping God according to how we think or one or more authoritative men think God should be worshipped. It entails praying for whomever is in our sphere of influence with Jesus, who prays for all men. Not praying for such according to our own mind. And much more that I haven’t room to write about in a single post.


“Thanks for sharing anyway, never expected that.â€

But unfortunately, I expected this response. Most people not only don’t expect it, but haven’t a clue as to how to understand it. And why is that so? My only explanation is that the power of interpretive denominational indoctrination is very great.


“I do find it odd however, that you choose to believe that the bible is not the Word of God yet quote many scriptures out of it to state your points.â€

I understand. Actually, if you read many of my posts, you’ll find that I don’t ordinarily quote the bible. For the simple reason people don’t all see the bible alike. It’s the unfortunate consequence of the practice of biblical interpretation. So I prefer to simply state ideas with the hope that some readers understand enough of the bible, enough of what the bible actually says in its own right, to see that what I am saying is just a restating of what is said in the bible. I find it’s a better way, since Christians tend to equate direct biblical quotes with their own or another’s interpretation of the bible.

I actually had an individual on this forum claim that some direct quotes of the bible were my opinion. What he meant, of course, was that how they applied to the matter at hand was to him my opinion.

As far as the bible being the word of God, it simply isn’t true. The bible alone is simply dead letters of dead writers. Something is needed to give life to the bible. Roman Catholicism acknowledges this dilemma and claims that interpretation is necessary to understand the bible correctly. And it acknowledges the obvious corollary that the validity of an interpretation requires an authoritative interpreter. Thus it claims that only the authoritative interpreters of the Roman Catholic Church are capable of interpreting authoritatively the bible correctly. Consequently, it’s the authoritative bible interpreters that give life to the bible.

Unfortunately, when Martin Luther decided to challenge that idea with his own bible alone idea, he neglected one small detail. The necessity of another authority to authoritatively interpret the bible. Martin Luther became such an authority. As did John Calvin, Menno Simons, John Smythe, and a whole slew of other Protestant leaders down through 500 years. And each authority became the life of the bible to the followers of the authority. The result has been the ultimate expression of the denominational character of Christianity to date.

Those who claim that the bible can’t be understood except by interpretation, that everyone interprets the bible whether they realize it or not; they are quite correct. Naturally speaking. What they don’t realize is that the practice of biblical interpretation is unrelated to the supernatural whatsoever. No matter whether they claim supernatural help or not. If what they claim about interpretation is the reality, then it’s evidence that the supernatural doesn’t exist. It certainly isn’t evidence that anyone who is practicing interpretation is being guided by a supernatural force. Too many different Christian philosophies.

Now, if I agreed with their estimation, again, I would be an Atheist. For not only would Christianity be man-made, but the bible itself would be as man-made as the interpretations that give it life. Because as I said, the bible by itself, the bible alone, is nothing more than dead letters of dead writers. If the only thing that can give the bible life is human, then that’s all the bible will ever be, human.

If you’re able to look past the interpretations, you can look at all the NT references to the word of God, and you’ll see that they all are a reference to Jesus Christ, not to the bible. The life of the bible is intended to be the resurrected Jesus Christ, not earth bound limited human interpreters. If you can NOT get past the interpretations concerning the word of God, along with the interpretations of such passages as 2 Timothy 3:16-17, 2 Peter 1:18-20 and 3:15-16, then what I say on the matter will be pretty much gibberish to you.


“Though the Bible may appear like an overwhelmingly challenging book for humans to understand,â€

I agree with how you stated that. The bible appears to be a challenging book. But there really isn’t anything challenging about it. What the bible says it says in a very straightforward way in no uncertain terms. The bible only becomes challenging in two ways. When the original languages are interpretively translated, and when an attempt is made to interpret its actual meaning into something that is NOT its actual meaning. And when one chooses to understand the bible apart from the teaching of Christ, one has no choice but to either make the bible challenging by interpreting it, or not read the bible at all.


“let's look on the bright side - that whatever fundamental truths we need to know about salvation and Christian living have been made easy enough for man to understand and embrace and I guess that's all that matters.â€

That’s looking on the bright side alright. But not being one who believes in the power of positive thinking philosophy, I realize that if those fundamental truths are understood interpretively, they’re no longer fundamental truths at all. They’re just truths out of the imagination of men. And sad to say, more Christians have been deluded into believing in imaginary fundamental truths than in the actual fundamental truths that are revealed in the bible.


“I don't believe anyone is going to lose salvation by belonging to a certain church or denomination or getting his non-salvific facts wrong through misinterpretations of the Bible.â€

It’s not so much whether anyone will lose their salvation. It’s more a matter of whether one is in Christ to have salvation in the first place. It’s not the “non-salvific†facts I’m concerned about that are wrong due to biblical interpretation. It’s the “salvific†facts that are wrong due to biblical interpretation. I think I’ve said this before. In my estimation, most Christians who are in Christ, and not all Christians are in Christ, are in Christ in spite of Christianity.

Just try to conider that a sub-species of Christian that is “the true Christianâ€, does NOT in fact exist. Anyone who is part of Christianity is a Christian, whether one agrees with their doctrines or not. If you can see this, then you’ll be one step closer to understanding my point of view.

FC

 

[Tina]

Just try to consider that a sub-species of Christian that is “the true Christianâ€, does NOT in fact exist.

In your opinion, can you elaborate what exactly is a "true Christian" ?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

In your opinion, can you elaborate what exactly is a "true Christian" ?

I think he's saying there isn't a Christian who truly follows Christ, because to be a Christian according to the defining qualities of what being a Christian means today you are not really following Christ.

He believes you have to stop being a Christian (as we have erroneously defined that today by our beliefs and behavior) in order to truly follow Christ.

Of course, I don't agree with that at all because there are things that matter in the kingdom of God, and there are things that don't matter in the kingdom of God. If you conform to what matters you will indeed be following Christ and will be pleasing to God.


"We know that we all possess knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up." (1 Cor. 8:1 NIV1984)

6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision (the externals of 'correct' religion) has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love." (Gal. 5:6 NIV1984 parenthesis mine)

What counts in following God is your faith in Christ's forgiveness. A faith that changes you and is seen when you put on and clothe yourself with the nature of Christ, walking in the Spirit of "love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control..." (Gal. 5:22-23 NIV1984)

What counts, what matters is that you have become a new creation that walks according to the fruit of the Spirit, not that you are careful to believe correctly about certain doctrines and worship practices:

"15 Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is a new creation. 16 Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule, even to the Israel of God (IOW, this is true even for those who have the law, the Israelites themselves)." (Gal. 6:15-16 NIV1984 parenthesis mine)

 

[Eventide]

What counts, what matters is that you have become a new creation that walks according to the fruit of the Spirit, not that you are careful to believe correctly about certain doctrines and worship practices:

AMEN to that !

 

[Former Christian]

Tina

“ Originally Posted by Former Christian

Just try to consider that a sub-species of Christian that is “the true Christian”, does NOT in fact exist.

In your opinion, can you elaborate what exactly is a "true Christian" ?”



First, let’s take a look at the dictionary definition of Christian: “of, relating to, or professing Christianity or its teachings” or “informal: having or showing qualities associated with Christians, especially those of decency, kindness, and fairness” or “a person who has received Christian baptism or is a believer in Jesus Christ and his teachings.” (Oxford Dictionary)

As you see, the dictionary definition is somewhat variable. Anybody could be a Christian. Even one who would otherwise not be considered a Christian if they are showing qualities considered Christian.

The idea of the “true Christian” among Christians themselves is also rather variable in meaning. Some would say that true Christians are those who agree with their own doctrinal standard. Some would say that true Christians are only those who are “born again”. Some would say that a true Christian is one who rigidly follows the commandments or teachings of Jesus Christ as found in the bible. What a true Christian is depends entirely upon which Christian you ask.

The Greek word that is translated “Christian” means one who follows the Christ. The Greek word itself offers nothing in itself to define what exactly that means other than its primary definition. In the first century, it was a term that was used by non-believers to refer to believers. According to the NT, it appears that initially the term was used by Gentile unbelievers. There is no indication that the Jews called them Christians. Since they believed in the Messiah, just not Jesus as the Messiah. You must keep this in mind when you consider any definition of the term today. Because if you will notice, the word Christian has taken on a different meaning since the first century.

In Christianity, the term Christian has taken on the meaning of a self-denotation, that it didn’t have in the first century. Today, the term can have a broad meaning that is inclusive of all who are in Christianity, or it can have a very narrow meaning that is exclusive of other communities of Christians, and varying degrees of meaning in between.

I take a simple view of the term Christian. The term as used today includes anyone who truly believes he’s a Christian. As far as the nature of a “true Christian”, every Christian who truly believes he’s a Christian is a true Christian. Differences in doctrinal belief does NOT affect the definition.

My view of the term Christian is entirely compatible with what I believe about Christianity. That it’s a man-made religion. Not a Divinely ordained religion. Not a true expression of the Divine or the Body of Christ on earth. Not a community of those who are in Christ. Just a man-made religion. The community that calls itself Christianity, is composed of those who truly believe they are Christians.

You must consider my view that there’s a difference between being in Christ and being a Christian. Being in Christ isn’t synonymous with being a “true Christian”. One who is in Christ may be a Christian, but not all Christians are in Christ. In fact by all outward appearances, the vast majority of Christians are not in Christ. But according to their own belief they are Christians, true Christians, nevertheless.

FC

 

[Former Christian]

Jethro Bodine

“I think he's saying there isn't a Christian who truly follows Christ, because to be a Christian according to the defining qualities of what being a Christian means today you are not really following Christ.â€

You said it. I didn’t.


“He believes you have to stop being a Christian (as we have erroneously defined that today by our beliefs and behavior) in order to truly follow Christ.â€

You’re doing a lot of second guessing here. But no, that isn’t what I believe at all. One doesn’t have to stop being a Christian in order to follow Christ. By definition, one who is a Christian is a follower of Christ. One of the problems with Christianity is that there are too many definitions as to what it means to follow Christ. Nevertheless, John in Revelations never has Jesus say that any overcomer is to leave the community in which he finds himself. Where would they go if they did? Of course, things were simpler in the first century than they are now. Each city only had one ekklesia. Today each city has any number of Christian denominations represented. Especially if the city is of any size.

One could do what I did. I Church hopped. But with a sense of purpose. It was how I learned about the practical side of denominationalism. Apart from such a purpose, Church hopping might be no more than useless energy spent.

You must take into account my understanding that there’s a difference between following Christ and being in Christ. Anyone can follow Christ. Being in Christ is another thing altogether.


“Of course, I don't agree with that at allâ€

I should hope not. Neither do I.


“What counts in following God is your faith in Christ's forgiveness. A faith that changes you and is seen when you put on and clothe yourself with the nature of Christ, walking in the Spirit of ..... What counts, what matters is that you have become a new creation that walks according to the fruit of the Spirit, not that you are careful to believe correctly about certain doctrines and worship practicesâ€

I would say “faith in God’s and Christ’s forgivenessâ€. Because technically, Jesus Christ is the means of God’s forgiveness. Then along with Eventide, and I’m sure Tina I too would say “Amen to thatâ€.

FC

 

[Tina]

I take a simple view of the term Christian. The term as used today includes anyone who truly believes he’s a Christian. As far as the nature of a “true Christianâ€, every Christian who truly believes he’s a Christian is a true Christian. Differences in doctrinal belief does NOT affect the definition.

The Catholics truly believe they are true Christians.
The 7-Day Adventists truly believe they are true Christians.
The Jehovah's Witnesses truly believe they are true Christians.
The Mormons truly believe they are true Christians.


I think I am finally beginning to understand why you prefer to be known as "Former Christian"..... :D


.... although I wouldn't dare pass a sweeping statement that the "true Christian does not exist". It's for God to judge, not us.