[_ Old Earth _] Finally, real proof for a creative mind!

[NOTW]

For you atheist slash evolutionist, and all here at this board. Go to amazon.com and buy "Unlocking the mysteries of life" dvd.

Overwhelming proof for an ultimate designer found in scientific data regarding the information and instructions embedded into dna.

A little more dirt on Darwins grave :wink: sorry my friends, but his theory has now officially broken down.

Heres the link, the "Privleged Planet" is also worth the money as a double buy.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00007 ... ance&n=130

 

[saltiness]

I'm not going to spend money on this but after reading the reviews, it seems like a lot of the same old stuff. "This is so complicated it must have been designed." Or, "Evolution and Creation are both religious concepts." Probably very similar to 'What the BLEEP Do We Know?' and it's metaphysical agenda. I'll look for a way to watch it without paying for it.

 

[jwu]

If it's so great, then perhaps you could argue the points that it makes here, in your own words.

 

[ArtGuy]

If it's so great, then perhaps you could argue the points that it makes here, in your own words.

I think saltiness probably just covered them all.

 

[peace4all]

Tehehe..

First review

Fascinating and well presented, but with an unfortunate propagandist twist, September 28, 2005
Reviewer: JP Benfield (Flemington, NJ USA) - See all my reviews
(REAL NAME)
This is a very well-produced video that is certainly thought provoking. However, it has some serious flaws. The most glaring of which is totally discounting all evolutionary theory because of our current lack of understanding of the underlying mechanisms and processes. The quotations littered throughout the video are those of Charles Darwin (and are subsequently about 150 years behind current theory). There is no discussion of the current state of evolutionary theory. It also contains a significant amount of speculation and "sloppy science". (not actually wrong, but conveniently distorted or simply ommitted to lead you the viewer to a particular conclusion.)

Basically, the argument comes down to "see how messed up Darwin was that he didn't account for..." to "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain and just trust in the Mighty Oz". Instead of an honest debate of ideas, it comes across as more of a disassembly of evolution followed by a leap of faith towards intelligent design with NO discussion of the implications that such a theory presents.

Since the video was funded by a conservative Christian organization (Discovery Media...producers of "The End Times" and the "The Miracle and Power of Prayer"), they're certainly within their rights to push their agenda. But to imply that it's unbiased science is just disturbing. There are numerous leaps that they make that will undoubtably bias and incite a lot of people that simply don't bother to do their homework.

Now...with all of that said, this is a very well done video and it does present an interesting viewpoint. A number of Michael Behe's papers have earned him respect as a theorist and scientific rebel. It's a shame that he's used as a tool for this propaganda. As a video to get someone started in a serious study of intelligent design, this isn't too bad. My complaint and fear is that it might be the *only* video some people watch and they'll somehow confuse a leap of faith with good scientific method. Intelligent Design shouldn't be about just saying "God Did It" and shrugging our collective shoulders (though the video is VERY careful to avoid actually saying this.) It should be about having an open mind, continuing to question "conventional wisdom" and dealing with the implications of the answers whether we like them or not. Intelligent Design has it's place. If, for nothing else, to stop us from becoming complacent with "accepted theory". However, the moment that our conclusions rely on faith rather than reason, it's philosophy/religion and not science.

That pretty much sums up what I figured the video would be...

 

[NOTW]

Typical atheist/evolutionist replys. That one review is in the minority as you are. The information and instructions embedded within dna is what has scientists baffled. Howd it get there? Their conclusion is there must be an intelligent mind behind it which created all life as we know it period. They still cant figure it out and I dont think they ever will. Open your minds for once in your life and learn something, Darwin was wrong!!

 

[UofMPharm]

Typical atheist/evolutionist replys. That one review is in the minority as you are. The information and instructions embedded within dna is what has scientists baffled. Howd it get there? Their conclusion is there must be an intelligent mind behind it which created all life as we know it period. They still cant figure it out and I dont think they ever will. Open your minds for once in your life and learn something, Darwin was wrong!!

People that are totally close minded toward evolution show how little they actually know about about it. If you truly knew the facts, you wouldn't be able to completely refute that evolution is taking place, and took place a long time ago.

You would be unable to simply disregard evolution, just like you cannot totally attribute our creation to evolution and disregard god's role in it.

If you truly knew evolution, you would understand that it doesn't have to be just one or the other.

 

[reznwerks]

For you atheist slash evolutionist, and all here at this board. Go to amazon.com and buy "Unlocking the mysteries of life" dvd.

Overwhelming proof for an ultimate designer found in scientific data regarding the information and instructions embedded into dna.

A little more dirt on Darwins grave :wink: sorry my friends, but his theory has now officially broken down.

Heres the link, the "Privleged Planet" is also worth the money as a double buy.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00007 ... ance&n=130

Be serious. It tries to make a case out of the fact we don't have all the answers. No kidding. Not having answers is not proof of God. Secondly it is produced by a Christian production company. This is not to say that the company has Christians working for them , this is to say the the company has an agenda. Is it too much to ask for some facts and consistant evidence. Truth doesn't rest on consensus of how many believe . It rests on reportable and showable results and evidence.

 

[saltiness]

Typical atheist/evolutionist replys. That one review is in the minority as you are. The information and instructions embedded within dna is what has scientists baffled. Howd it get there? Their conclusion is there must be an intelligent mind behind it which created all life as we know it period. They still cant figure it out and I dont think they ever will. Open your minds for once in your life and learn something, Darwin was wrong!!

Just because something baffles scientists doesn't mean God did it. Scientists have been baffled by just about every piece of the natural world at one point or another. I have no doubt that we will completely 'figure out' how DNA works within the next century if not decades. We have figured much of it out already, including that which pertains to Darwin's original ToE. You're right though, Darwin was wrong about a lot of things! He came up with his theory 150 years ago, if all we did was accept what he came up with we would be in big trouble. My mind is always open, that's why I don't stop right now and say God made everything! CASE CLOSED! I want to know what is really happening.

 

[NOTW]

Yes well, the thing with this "information" is, they cant see it, touch it, etc, yet they know its somehow embedded within. They might as well try to prove God really exists because thats what there up against. As for the information, who put it there? Being a christian myself I already know. But for those skeptics, its a real head scratcher. Kind of like love, can you prove love exists? What really is love? Again, I know. But you cant see it, touch it etc. Same with the mind, can you see a mind, touch a mind, prove a mind or multiple minds exists? No you cant, so maybe we're just out of our minds then LOL.

If you look around at the world and all the things created in it, flowers, trees, water, wind, animals so on and so on, everything does exactly what its supposed to be doing with no questions asked. It was all designed for a purpose, and for that purpose it lives as it was meant to. All of creation in my eyes is speaking volumes of itself, a creator, and is very alive worshipping the creator in great harmony. It is my opinion we are the ones out of sinc. Us humans IMHO are the ones who just dont get it. I wouldnt be surprised if the rest of creation was laughing at us because we're so stupid to the obvious, we may be the stupidest of all. We must surrender and become one, then be at peace as we get swallowed up of life. 2 CR 5:4


Of course the bible has all the anwsers in it regarding all of the above. Funny how the writers (throat clear) knew all this over 2,ooo years ago :wink:

In Christ amen brother's!!!

 

[jwu]

Yes well, the thing with this "information" is, they cant see it, touch it, etc, yet they know its somehow embedded within.

How does one "know" that without a way to quantify information? That sounds like "Gittish" begging of the question: "I define information as something artificial and i define that DNA contains such information, therefore DNA is artificial"

If you look around at the world and all the things created in it, flowers, trees, water, wind, animals so on and so on, everything does exactly what its supposed to be doing with no questions asked.

By assuming that there is a "purpose" you presuppose said creator. Begging the question again.

It was all designed for a purpose, and for that purpose it lives as it was meant to. All of creation in my eyes is speaking volumes of itself, a creator, and is very alive worshipping the creator in great harmony.

What harmony? There are complicated dependencies, but harmony there is not.

 

[ArtGuy]

NOTW, can you give an example of some of this information that could not have developed through the evolutionary process?

 

[NOTW]

Yeah, go watch the dvd :

Leading atheistic evolutionist Richard Dawkins admits:

There is enough information capacity in a single human cell to store the Encyclopaedia Britannica, all 30 volumes of it, three or four times over.

 

[ArtGuy]

Yeah, go watch the dvd :

Before I commit myself to purchasing a DVD which may or may not be rubbish, I would like to know specifically what sort of revelations it has to offer. I'm sure you can provide me with a single example, yes? What is a specific example of information found within DNA that cannot be explained by evolutionary theory?

Also, the fact that there exists "information" within DNA doesn't show anything. There's information in a rock, or in a random blob of jelly fallen from a sandwich. If an earthquake occurs and knocks over a plate that shatters upon the floor, there's information in the shards that could lead me to deduce where the plate was before it fell. That doesn't mean that there was deliberate design behind its fatal plummet. The definition of "information" is pretty vague, and the mere existence of information in and of itself doesn't speak in favor of either ID or evolution. It would have to be information that couldn't have arisen on its own.

 

[NOTW]

What is a specific example of information found within DNA that cannot be explained by evolutionary theory?


Quote.......

But in the many years since Darwin, our ability to look closely at the cell has grown to the point that we now know that there is NO such thing as a simple cell. In fact, as we examine cells, we realized that their complexity is incredible, and their world is incredibly small. Our modern microscopes reveal that a single thimble filled with cultured liquid can contain over 4 BILLION single cell bacteria. Each of these are like tiny machines, packed with information and complexity that Darwin could never have imagined


If random chance is not an adequate explanation of the creation of simple proteins, it is certainly not able to explain the existence of the smallest cells! Take, for example the simplest ameba cell, made up of about 2000 proteins. The odds of this kind of organism arising randomly is one chance in 10 to the 40,000th power! The odds of snatching a single specific atom out of the entire universe is only 1 in 10 to the 80th power, imagine then, how impossible it would be to form the amoeba! When Sir Fred Hoyle realized this fact, he said that the odds of random assembly are “enough to bury Darwin and the whole theory of evolution. There was no primeval soup, neither on this planet nor any other, and if the beginnings of life were not random they must therefore have been the product of purposeful intelligence.†(Nature, Vol. 294, November 12, 1981)


To anwser your question, bacteria flagellum.


The flagellum IS actually a small motor, just like other motors that are designed by humans! When we look at the flagellum under magnification, we see a specific assembly of specialized parts that have been assembled in a specific way to form a motor that is then used to propel the bacterium! Now this flagellum is constructed from 40 individual parts. These parts are assembled in a meaningful way and the flagellum CANNOT function unless all the parts are present at the same time!

And dont try the natural selection BS either, it isnt possible.

another quote.........


But the question of course is, how did these flagellum mechanisms come into being? If we are to believe they came into being as a result of natural selection, then we are going to have to explain a few things! See, natural selection argues that small changes occur over time. The first part of the motor appears in the bacterium, then thousands of years later, another part appears, then when all the parts appear, they come together to form the flagellum. But the laws of natural selection would actually work AGAINST this possibility, because Darwin argued that organisms only KEEP elements that BENEFIT the organism. Useless pieces are discarded and are NOT passed down to the next generation of the organism. So as these parts of the flagellum motor slowly appeared in the bacterium, they would have no function on their own and would have been selected OUT and eliminated if natural selection is to be believed. 30 of these parts are unique to the flagellum and don’t exist in any other capacity in the bacterium. They only exist to assemble the motor, and they have to come together in a specific way and a specific order!


Now go buy the dvd and see it in action.

Isaiah 45:18

For the LORD is God, and he created the heavens and earth and put everything in place. He made the world to be lived in, not to be a place of empty chaos.


peace.......

 

[saltiness]

None of these arguements are new. They might do well in strengthening the beliefs of those opposed to Evolution but those well versed in the ToE have seen this all refuted before.

 

[jwu]

What is a specific example of information found within DNA that cannot be explained by evolutionary theory?

To anwser your question, bacteria flagellum.

What does that have to do with information?
How much "information" does the genetic code of the flagellum contain? Provide the unit and method of measurement. Else it has nothing to do with that subject.

However, irreducible complexiity is dead. According to Behe's own math which he brought up at the dover trial a IC system evolves on earth about every second.
Step by step ways of assembling the flagellum also have been pointed out, it isn't even irreducibly complex - you presuppose that it had to pop into existence fully formed, but evolution doesn't work that way. It usually works with what already is there. In case of the flagellum it could have evolved e.g. from a waste excretion system, over several steps.

 

[ArtGuy]

As jwu pointed out, what you said, NOTW, has nothing to do with an improbable level of information. There's a lot, sure, but you never showed how it's "too much" for evolution to have granted. Also, those odds "calculated" for an amoeba forming strike me as extremely spurious. I mean, what are the odds for there being a God who happens to be the God of the Bible? I bet it's something like 1 in 50 thousand hojillion!

"Odds" like this are silly, especially when they're calculated based on having a precise result in mind. If I throw 50 dice at once, I'm going to get an extremely improbably result. In fact, the odds of me throwing that precise combination are going to be 1 in 6^50. That's a pretty small chance - does that mean that there's no way I could've rolled that result randomly, and I must've deliberately placed each die? No, it simply demonstrates that when you have lots and lots of possibilities, any result you get is going to be extremely improbable. However, you had to wind up with something.

Lastly, check this out. It nicely illustrates a rebuttal to the problem of irreducible complexity. It has little animations, and everything.

 

[NOTW]

I'd love to sit around here and waste my time argueing with you evolutionist, but I have a ton of photoshop work to do. Besides, its very obvious the information your putting forth for a rebuttal is not only completely wrong, but just plain rediculous to those well informed of factual scientific data and studies. You really should open your minds and do some better research. Try an ID forum for your agenda pushing instead of a christian forum. That would also make more sense.

 

[jwu]

Besides, its very obvious the information your putting forth for a rebuttal is not only completely wrong, but just plain rediculous to those well informed of factual scientific data and studies. You really should open your minds and do some better research.

Could you at least point out the most glaring errors? I honestly don't see them, and it looks like you're ducking out as soon as you hit a bit of resistance instead of mutual backslapping.

And what's with the missing "-s" at the end of "evolutionists"? I don't mean to criticize your grammar, but this particular thing is incredibly common in creationist circles, and one basically never sees it elsewhere. Could you enlighten me there? Is this some sort of inside joke that i don't get?