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[_ Old Earth _] Flaw in the moustrap (Behe)

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The Flaw in the Mousetrap
Intelligent design fails the biochemistry test.
By Kenneth R. Miller

Michael J. Behe fails to provide biochemical evidence for intelligent design.


"To understand why the scientific community has been unimpressed by attempts to resurrect the so-called argument from design, one need look no further than Michael J. Behe's own essay. He argues that complex biochemical systems could not possibly have been produced by evolution because they possess a quality he calls irreducible complexity. Just like mousetraps, these systems cannot function unless each of their parts is in place. Since "natural selection can only choose among systems that are already working," there is no way that Darwinian mechanisms could have fashioned the complex systems found in living cells. And if such systems could not have evolved, they must have been designed. That is the totality of the biochemical "evidence" for intelligent design.
Parts of a supposedly irreducibly complex machine may have different, but still useful, functions.

Ironically, Behe's own example, the mousetrap, shows what's wrong with this idea. Take away two parts (the catch and the metal bar), and you may not have a mousetrap but you do have a three-part machine that makes a fully functional tie clip or paper clip. Take away the spring, and you have a two-part key chain. The catch of some mousetraps could be used as a fishhook, and the wooden base as a paperweight; useful applications of other parts include everything from toothpicks to nutcrackers and clipboard holders. The point, which science has long understood, is that bits and pieces of supposedly irreducibly complex machines may have different -- but still useful -- functions.

Evolution produces complex biochemical machines.
Behe's contention that each and every piece of a machine, mechanical or biochemical, must be assembled in its final form before anything useful can emerge is just plain wrong. Evolution produces complex biochemical machines by copying, modifying, and combining proteins previously used for other functions. Looking for examples? The systems in Behe's essay will do just fine.

Natural selection favors an organism's parts for different functions.
He writes that in the absence of "almost any" of its parts, the bacterial flagellum "does not work." But guess what? A small group of proteins from the flagellum does work without the rest of the machine -- it's used by many bacteria as a device for injecting poisons into other cells. Although the function performed by this small part when working alone is different, it nonetheless can be favored by natural selection.

The blood clotting system is an example of evolution.
The key proteins that clot blood fit this pattern, too. They're actually modified versions of proteins used in the digestive system. The elegant work of Russell Doolittle has shown how evolution duplicated, retargeted, and modified these proteins to produce the vertebrate blood-clotting system.
Working researchers see evolution in subcellular systems.



And Behe may throw up his hands and say that he cannot imagine how the components that move proteins between subcellular compartments could have evolved, but scientists actually working on such systems completely disagree. In a 1998 article in the journal Cell, a group led by James Rothman, of the Sloan-Kettering Institute, described the remarkable simplicity and uniformity of these mechanisms. They also noted that these mechanisms "suggest in a natural way how the many and diverse compartments in eukaryotic cells could have evolved in the first place." Working researchers, it seems, see something very different from what Behe sees in these systems -- they see evolution.
Behe's points are philosophical, not scientific.


If Behe wishes to suggest that the intricacies of nature, life, and the universe reveal a world of meaning and purpose consistent with a divine intelligence, his point is philosophical, not scientific. It is a philosophical point of view, incidentally, that I share. However, to support that view, one should not find it necessary to pretend that we know less than we really do about the evolution of living systems. In the final analysis, the biochemical hypothesis of intelligent design fails not because the scientific community is closed to it but rather for the most basic of reasons -- because it is overwhelmingly contradicted by the scientific evidence."
 
BACTERIA DISPROVE EVOLUTIONâ€â€Let us go beyond DNA molecules and pieces of protein, and consider one of the simplest of life-forms. Scientists have studied in detail the bacterium, Escherichia coli. These bacteria are commonly found in the large bowel.

Under favorable conditions bacterial cells can divide every 20 minutes. Then their offspring immediately begin reproducing. Theoretically, one cell can produce 1020 cells in one day! For over a century researchers have studied E-coli bacteria. All that time those bacteria have reproduced as much as people could in millions of years. Yet never has one bacterium been found to change into anything else. And those little creatures do not divide simply. The single chromosome replicates (makes a copy of itself), and then splits in two. Then each daughter cell splits in two, forming the various cells in the bacterium. These tiny bacteria can divide either sexually or asexually.

Escherichia coli has about 5000 genes in its single chromosome strand. This is the equivalent of a million three-letter codons. Yet this tiny bacterium is one of the "simplest" living creatures that exists.

Please, do not underestimate the complexity of this, a creature with only ONE chromosome: First, that one chromosome is a combination lock with a million units, arranged in a definite sequence. Second, each unit is made up of three sub-units (A-C-C, G-T-A, etc.). Third, the sub-units are combined from four different chemical building blocks: A, G, C, and T. What are the possible number of combinations for that one chromosome? Get a sheet of paper and figure that one out for yourself.

FRAME SHIFTSâ€â€Then scientists discovered an even "simpler" creature that lives in the human bowel. It is called the theta-x-174, and is a tiny virus. It is so small, that it does not contain enough DNA information to produce the proteins in its membrane! How then can it do it? How can it produce proteins without enough DNA code to produce proteins! Scientists were totally baffled upon making this discovery. Then they discovered the high-tech secret: The answer is but another example of a super-intelligent Creator. The researchers found that this tiny, mindless creature routinely codes for that protein thousands of times a dayâ€â€and does it by "frame shift."

To try to describe it in simple words, a gene is read off from the first DNA base to produce a protein. Then the same message is read againâ€â€but this time omitting the first base and starting with the second. This produces a different protein. And on and on it goes. Try writing messages in this manner, and you will begin to see how utterly complicated it is: "Try writing messages / writing messages in / messages in this / in this manner." That is how the simplest of viruses uses its DNA coding to make its protein!

Does someone think that the virus was smart enough to figure out that complicated procedure with its own brains? Or will someone suggest that it all "just happened by chance?"

With all this in mind, *Wally Gilbert, a Nobel prize winning molecular biologist, said that bacteria and viruses have a more complicated DNA code-reading system than the "higher forms of life."

THE CENTRAL DOGMAâ€â€*Francis Crick, the co-discoverer of the structure of DNA, prepared a genetic principle which he entitled, "The Central Dogma":

"The transfer of information from nucleic acid to nucleic acid, or from nucleic acid to protein may be possible, but transfer from protein to protein, or from protein to nucleic acid is impossible."â€â€*Francis Crick, "Central Dogma," quoted in *Richard Milner, Encyclopedia of Evolution (1990), p. 77.

The Central Dogma is an important scientific principle and means this: The complex coding within the DNA in the cell nucleus decides the traits for the organism. But what is in the body and what happens to the body cannot affect the DNA coding. What this means is this: Species cannot change from one into another! All the members in a species (dogs, for example) can only be the outcome of the wide range of "gene pool" data in the DNA, but no member of that species can, because of the environment or what has happened to that individual, change into another species. Only changes in the DNA coding can produce such changes; nothing else can do it.

"It [the Central Dogma] has proved a fruitful principle, ever since James Watson and Crick discovered the double-helix structure of DNA in the 1950s. DNA is the blueprint; it gives instructions to the RNA and to proteins about how to arrange themselves."â€â€*Richard Milner, Encyclopedia of Evolution (1990), ibid.

"An honest man, armed with all the knowledge available to us now, could only state that in some sense, the origin of life appears at the moment to be almost a miracle, so many are the conditions which would have had to have been satisfied to get it going."â€â€*Francis Crick, Life Itself (1981), p. 88.

Retrieved from http://evolution-facts.org/Ev-Crunch/c08.htm
 
BACTERIA DISPROVE EVOLUTIONâ€â€Let us go beyond DNA molecules and pieces of protein, and consider one of the simplest of life-forms. Scientists have studied in detail the bacterium, Escherichia coli. These bacteria are commonly found in the large bowel.

Under favorable conditions bacterial cells can divide every 20 minutes. Then their offspring immediately begin reproducing. Theoretically, one cell can produce 1020 cells in one day! For over a century researchers have studied E-coli bacteria. All that time those bacteria have reproduced as much as people could in millions of years. Yet never has one bacterium been found to change into anything else.

They are constantly changing into other things. Although speciation is a bit difficult to gauge in non-sexually-reproducing organisms, they have been obeserved to evolve irreducibly complex features in a very short time.

One of my degrees is in bacteriology. You should have more respect for the little critters. They outsmarted Michael Behe, after all.

And those little creatures do not divide simply. The single chromosome replicates (makes a copy of itself), and then splits in two. Then each daughter cell splits in two, forming the various cells in the bacterium. These tiny bacteria can divide either sexually or asexually.

No. You cannot "divide" sexually. There is, however a form of sexual behavior in bacteria, called "conjugation." Two bacteria connect briefly, and exchange short bits of DNA. It is one of the most primitive forms of sexual behavior.

Escherichia coli has about 5000 genes in its single chromosome strand. This is the equivalent of a million three-letter codons. Yet this tiny bacterium is one of the "simplest" living creatures that exists.

No. Not only "no", but $*%*$ no. These nimrods know no better than you about such things. E. Coli is a rather sophisticated and advanced prokaryote. Even today, there are much, much simpler ones.

Please, do not underestimate the complexity of this, a creature with only ONE chromosome:

No kidding. "One of the simplist living creatures"; what rot.

FRAME SHIFTSâ€â€Then scientists discovered an even "simpler" creature that lives in the human bowel. It is called the theta-x-174, and is a tiny virus. It is so small, that it does not contain enough DNA information to produce the proteins in its membrane!

Viruses aren't alive. They are bits of nucleic acid that get into cells and use the cell's own systems to make copies of themselves.

(Mentions frame shifting)

Does someone think that the virus was smart enough to figure out that complicated procedure with its own brains?

I hope not. We know that such things happen from time to time, by chance mutations. Almost all of them are quickly lethal, but every now and then, it does something useful. The most recent example is the ability to metabolize nylon, caused by a frameshift mutation in certain bacteria.

Or will someone suggest that it all "just happened by chance?"

All mutations happen by chance. Whether or not they are useful, is a matter of natural selection. Most frameshifts, because they have drastic effects, kill off the organism. Every now and then, like the recently-observed nylon frameshift, they not only don't kill, they make the organism more hardy.

The "Central Dogma" has been dead for some time. Prions, retroviruses, etc. show that it's a lot more complicated than that. Your source needs to do a little catching up. About 30 years worth.
 
The Barbarian said:
BACTERIA DISPROVE EVOLUTIONâ€â€Let us go beyond DNA molecules and pieces of protein, and consider one of the simplest of life-forms. Scientists have studied in detail the bacterium, Escherichia coli. These bacteria are commonly found in the large bowel.

Under favorable conditions bacterial cells can divide every 20 minutes. Then their offspring immediately begin reproducing. Theoretically, one cell can produce 1020 cells in one day! For over a century researchers have studied E-coli bacteria. All that time those bacteria have reproduced as much as people could in millions of years. Yet never has one bacterium been found to change into anything else.

They are constantly changing into other things. Although speciation is a bit difficult to gauge in non-sexually-reproducing organisms, they have been obeserved to evolve irreducibly complex features in a very short time.

One of my degrees is in bacteriology. You should have more respect for the little critters. They outsmarted Michael Behe, after all.

[quote:ac807]And those little creatures do not divide simply. The single chromosome replicates (makes a copy of itself), and then splits in two. Then each daughter cell splits in two, forming the various cells in the bacterium. These tiny bacteria can divide either sexually or asexually.

No. You cannot "divide" sexually. There is, however a form of sexual behavior in bacteria, called "conjugation." Two bacteria connect briefly, and exchange short bits of DNA. It is one of the most primitive forms of sexual behavior.

Escherichia coli has about 5000 genes in its single chromosome strand. This is the equivalent of a million three-letter codons. Yet this tiny bacterium is one of the "simplest" living creatures that exists.

No. Not only "no", but $*%*$ no. These nimrods know no better than you about such things. E. Coli is a rather sophisticated and advanced prokaryote. Even today, there are much, much simpler ones.

Please, do not underestimate the complexity of this, a creature with only ONE chromosome:

No kidding. "One of the simplist living creatures"; what rot.

FRAME SHIFTSâ€â€Then scientists discovered an even "simpler" creature that lives in the human bowel. It is called the theta-x-174, and is a tiny virus. It is so small, that it does not contain enough DNA information to produce the proteins in its membrane!

Viruses aren't alive. They are bits of nucleic acid that get into cells and use the cell's own systems to make copies of themselves.

(Mentions frame shifting)

Does someone think that the virus was smart enough to figure out that complicated procedure with its own brains?

I hope not. We know that such things happen from time to time, by chance mutations. Almost all of them are quickly lethal, but every now and then, it does something useful. The most recent example is the ability to metabolize nylon, caused by a frameshift mutation in certain bacteria.

Or will someone suggest that it all "just happened by chance?"

All mutations happen by chance. Whether or not they are useful, is a matter of natural selection. Most frameshifts, because they have drastic effects, kill off the organism. Every now and then, like the recently-observed nylon frameshift, they not only don't kill, they make the organism more hardy.

The "Central Dogma" has been dead for some time. Prions, retroviruses, etc. show that it's a lot more complicated than that. Your source needs to do a little catching up. About 30 years worth.[/quote:ac807]
You'll forgive me if I don't believe you over the articles that I have read that actually show scientific evidence against the religion of evolution.

You have shown that the religion of evolution is continually evolving into different "facts" as the old "facts" are proven false. Thanks for the clarification.
 
You'll forgive me if I don't believe you over the articles that I have read that actually show scientific evidence against the religion of evolution.

You don't have to take my word for it. Look up mycoplasmas. They are probably much more complicated than the earliest prokaryotes, but they are much, much less complicated than E. coli. They lied to you about that.

If you'd like some references for the other material, I'd be pleased to provide it. I suspect you already know what you'll find out, if you challenge me on any of it.

You have shown that the religion of evolution is continually evolving into different "facts" as the old "facts" are proven false. Thanks for the clarification.

It's tough when you learn people you trusted, lied to you. And I don't expect you to be gracious about me making you aware of it. But for your own satisfaction, you should check it out.
 
I have checked all of evolution out that I need to, and know that it is a false religious system masquerading as science. Once I recognize a lie, I no longer have to hear or see it to walk right on by it. Evolution is a humanistic philosophy steeped in deception that would have no credence in the religious field; therefore it had to infiltrate a discipline known as science. It took a while to seep into the education system, and had to claim itself as a theory so that it could build up to having integrity, but as everything in this fallen world, sin propagates fast and furious.

I can assure all that read this, that one day the lie of the enemy will seem so ridiculous that one will wonder how they could have ever been deceived so profoundly.
 
I have checked all of evolution out that I need to,

Obviously, you haven't. You've been fed a lot of dishonesties about the theory by people who likely know little more about it than you.

You denounce science and evidence, thinking that they are the enemy of God. But the truth can never be His enemy.

Rather, it is people like those who deceived you about all these things.
 
The Barbarian said:
I have checked all of evolution out that I need to,

Obviously, you haven't. You've been fed a lot of dishonesties about the theory by people who likely know little more about it than you.

You denounce science and evidence, thinking that they are the enemy of God. But the truth can never be His enemy.

Rather, it is people like those who deceived you about all these things.
You need to continue on your path of unscientific notions until it declares to you that it is wrong. Until then, good luck. I know better.
 
You need to continue on your path of unscientific notions until it declares to you that it is wrong.

You've come to the end of the rope, and realized that all your evidence was so much fakery. And you've decided that rather than trusting God, and letting Him decide, you're just going to hang there.

Until then, good luck. I know better.

I'm pretty sure you know the truth, even if you aren't about to admit it.
 
The Barbarian said:
You need to continue on your path of unscientific notions until it declares to you that it is wrong.

You've come to the end of the rope, and realized that all your evidence was so much fakery. And you've decided that rather than trusting God, and letting Him decide, you're just going to hang there.

[quote:7658c]Until then, good luck. I know better.

I'm pretty sure you know the truth, even if you aren't about to admit it.[/quote:7658c]
When you come to the end of YOUR rope, then you can begin believing God as I have. Until then you are in the World of deception. Relying on God's understanding is so much easier than relying on YOUR own understanding. It pays better dividends.

God does not fake evidence. It is the same evidence for evolutionists and creationists; it is the false belief system of the evolutionists that is full of deception and fakery. You haven't trusted God, you have trusted humanists. God is still waiting for you to believe in his creation instead of the humanist/atheist version of origins. Good luck.

5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. 6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. 7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil. Proverbs 3:5-7
 
See my reply above. I sincerely wish you well, but I think it's better if we don't talk any further.
 
The Barbarian said:
See my reply above. I sincerely wish you well, but I think it's better if we don't talk any further.
If you consider that living in darkness is better than iron sharpening iron, suit yourself.
 
You don't seem to be getting any sharper. I'm just agitating you, to no purpose.

And I mean to no purpose. Even if you never accept the way He did it, it won't keep you from heaven.

So I think we should no longer have these discussions. I'm not putting you on "ignore." I just think you're not willing to accept any of it.
 
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