[_ Old Earth _] Geocentric Universe Soon?

[dad]

The bible talks about a time when the heavens will pass away, and new heavens be revealed. I don't see why the new universe might not revolve around earth, the center of it!
God Himself will move here and live here forever, couldn,'t get more central than that.

I also wonder if it was possible that that was the way it was created, and somewhere along our history it was changed? That could explain some ancient, apparent misconceptions. Also, if it happened around the time of Babel, and the seperation of continents, I wonder if it could provide the mechanism for the continental breakup? If the earth was stationary, and started revolving over a short period, it seems likely that would mean great effects for earth. If the earth revolves at the rate, say, of about 1000 mph, and we took some days, or weeks to bring it up to present speed, that's a lot of force.

Whether or not that was what happened, the new universe coming will be 'totally' different, yet somewhat the same. We might still recognize star systems, and the earth, and sun are here as well.

 

[reznwerks]

The bible talks about a time when the heavens will pass away, and new heavens be revealed. I don't see why the new universe might not revolve around earth, the center of it!
God Himself will move here and live here forever, couldn,'t get more central than that.

I also wonder if it was possible that that was the way it was created, and somewhere along our history it was changed? That could explain some ancient, apparent misconceptions.[/color=blue] Also, if it[/color] happened around the time of Babel, and the seperation of continents, I wonder if it could provide the mechanism for the continental breakup? If the earth was stationary, and started revolving over a short period, it seems likely that would mean great effects for earth. If the earth revolves at the rate, say, of about 1000 mph, and we took some days, or weeks to bring it up to present speed, that's a lot of force.

Whether or not that was what happened, the new universe coming will be 'totally' different, yet somewhat the same. We might still recognize star systems, and the earth, and sun are here as well.

Really ? Based on what evidence?

 

[dad]

...
Really ? Based on what evidence?

The evidence that the universe is temporal, or not temporal can not come from present science. The evidence that a new heavens that the bible says many times is coming one day will not come, or will come is beyond science. As you may suspect, science cannot go there.
Just as you cannot evidence that this physical universe has existed as such, or not, or will exist in the future, or not.
That door is closed to science and men. For christians, we have the key to the future, in the bible. It clearly says an eternal universe is coming, and this one will pass away. It notes that God, a spirit, will live there, as well as other spirits like angels. This future coming includes the spiritual, together with the physical.

 

[reznwerks]

...
Really ? Based on what evidence?

The evidence that the universe is temporal, or not temporal can not come from present science.
Then it can't be determined. Not everything can be answered.
The evidence that a new heavens that the bible says many times is coming one day will not come, or will come is beyond science. As you may suspect, science cannot go there.
If science can't go there no one can.
Just as you cannot evidence that this physical universe has existed as such, or not, or will exist in the future, or not.
Again some questions are waiting to be answered. No problem here.
That door is closed to science and men.
Only science and men are looking for the answer.

For christians, we have the key to the future, in the bible.
The bible is not a textbook. It can make all the claims it wants but until it comes to pass it's anybodys guess.Then you have to look at the liklihood of it happening based on history. Guess where I am putting my money.

It clearly says an eternal universe is coming, and this one will pass away.
We are probably in an eternal universe right now. However we may not always be a part of it. Really where do you think all this junk is going to go? It can't disappear.

It notes that God, a spirit, will live there, as well as other spirits like angels. This future coming includes the spiritual, together with the physical.

There is no evidence of a spiritual world or spirits. If there are spirits as you and they do get involved in mans world then the status quo remains the same as the future is apparantly now since the spiritual is together with the physical.

 

[BradtheImpaler]

...
Really ? Based on what evidence?

The evidence that the universe is temporal, or not temporal can not come from present science. The evidence that a new heavens that the bible says many times is coming one day will not come, or will come is beyond science. As you may suspect, science cannot go there.
Just as you cannot evidence that this physical universe has existed as such, or not, or will exist in the future, or not.
That door is closed to science and men. For christians, we have the key to the future, in the bible. It clearly says an eternal universe is coming, and this one will pass away. It notes that God, a spirit, will live there, as well as other spirits like angels. This future coming includes the spiritual, together with the physical.

The door is closed to science, but you have a book which has the key. And what is your proof that this book has the key? It's just something you choose to believe.

(BTW - if an "eternal" universe is coming, it would already be here cause "eternal" means without end OR beginning)

 

[dad]

...
The door is closed to science, but you have a book which has the key. And what is your proof that this book has the key? It's just something you choose to believe.

(BTW - if an "eternal" universe is coming, it would already be here cause "eternal" means without end OR beginning)

. .It is here, we are seperated from the spiritual at the moment. That is why we are in the temporal. Our universe was created 6000 years ago, so it, like we, had a beginning. This doesn't matter in the usual bible definition of the word. For example ..


Matt 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
We all know the guy had a beginning. The actual jist of the usual meaning of the word in the bible is 'evermore' when applied to almost anything but God, who of course is the Eternal .


. ..Now as for the future and far past, indeed that door is locked to science. Men have attempted to use the key of the present to unlock it's secrets, but failed. It is only assumed the present is the key, it is not. Theirin I suggest lies the fundamental error in old age thought.
It is closed, and that is all anyone needs to know who wishes to leave the bible out of it! REGARDLESS of what they choose to believe.

 

[dad]

Then it can't be determined. Not everything can be answered.

True. Now can you imagine the gall of some people teaching kids in school they can determine the future, or past? Poor kids, they are told the sun will burn out, and our galaxy will one day crash into another, and horrible things like that!

If science can't go there no one can.

Oh, hec, yes. Science is a weak little kid on the block, that is hearing impaired, and 94% blind. The bible is like the hubble telescope, and a master computer, and a time machine rolled into one. It goes to the past, and the distant future in a cosmic rolls royce. But those who are not concerned with the bible, and just science must accept their huge limitations. That's all, she wrote.

Again some questions are waiting to be answered. No problem here.

Many questions are unanswered. For example is the universe temporal that we know? To know that we would have to know if it always will be just the physical universe. You have no idea. If having no idea is no problem for you, fine, enjoy.
If the new heavens the bible speaks of are coming, and this universe slated to pass away, science can't help us there, or tell us about it one way or the other. If the universe will include the spiritual, as we know it will, as it will last forever, and we will live with God, and angels, etc. -science can't tell us that! All it can do is tell us the little it knows about this physical present universe, and how it works. How it would work in the future if it were always the same, and something of the past, imagined also to have been physical only as the present. All proofs and evidences are based on this assumption, and are only as good as it! For the future, all bible believers know that the present is not the same as the new eternal heavens coming! For the non believers, you know nothing of the future.

Only science and men are looking for the answer.

Ever learning, and never able to come to a knowledge of the truth! Cause all they learn is natural only based, which could never lead one to the truths of the past or future!!!!

The bible is not a textbook. It can make all the claims it wants but until it comes to pass it's anybodys guess.Then you have to look at the liklihood of it happening based on history. Guess where I am putting my money.

On the closed door, and crossing you fingers the natural only learning will bring you to the knowledge of the truth one day?

We are probably in an eternal universe right now. However we may not always be a part of it. Really where do you think all this junk is going to go? It can't disappear.

My thoughts are that it is going nowhere! The spiritual is coming to join the physical, and it will be merged. This results in a fundamental change in the fabric of the universe! No more death, or decay, and an earth God moves to, that will last forever. No longer physical only, and in a state of decay, and temporal!

It notes that God, a spirit, will live there, as well as other spirits like angels. This future coming includes the spiritual, together with the physical.

There is no evidence of a spiritual world or spirits. If there are spirits as you and they do get involved in mans world then the status quo remains the same as the future is apparantly now since the spiritual is together with the physical.

From a physical, natural only scientific standpoint of evidence, no, any more than there is evidence there is none! It is simply beyond your natural ability at the moment to perceive. Separate. Angels, and spirits are among us, but we usually don't see them. God is working, and doing miracles, but we can't see them. (those with the answered prayers of course see the results)
In the new heavens, we will see them, and be part spiritual ourselves as well. Like Jesus after He arose from the dead!

 

[The Ascetic Crusader]

When young people learn that they come form " nothing" what impact does this have on their "worldview" ? On how they view "themselves" ? Is there a difference between being " created " by a loving God and " sprouting " from Chaos (nothing/evil) ?

 

[reznwerks]

teaching

When young people learn that they come form " nothing" what impact does this have on their "worldview" ?

Why would you teach them that? Why not teach them that they are special in the universe. In truth humans are special because so far we haven't found anything like us that has as much potential to influence the universe as us. There worldview should reflect the awsom responsibility each one of us have to each other because as such there aren't any more and we are special in the universe.


On how they view "themselves" ? Is there a difference between being " created " by a loving God and " sprouting " from Chaos (nothing/evil) ?

You have a very negative view of people. I don't believe I was created by a loving God and I have no problems with the fact I am special in the universe. Your ego allows you to believe that somehow the universe revolves around you and that if you plead hard enough the creator will bend his plans and alter the laws of nature to suit your whims.

 

[The Ascetic Crusader]

Re: teaching

When young people learn that they come form " nothing" what impact does this have on their "worldview" ?

Why would you teach them that? Why not teach them that they are special in the universe. In truth humans are special because so far we haven't found anything like us that has as much potential to influence the universe as us. There worldview should reflect the awsom responsibility each one of us have to each other because as such there aren't any more and we are special in the universe.


On how they view "themselves" ? Is there a difference between being " created " by a loving God and " sprouting " from Chaos (nothing/evil) ?

You have a very negative view of people. I don't believe I was created by a loving God and I have no problems with the fact I am special in the universe. Your ego allows you to believe that somehow the universe revolves around you and that if you plead hard enough the creator will bend his plans and alter the laws of nature to suit your whims.

As expected , another question goes unanswered.

I ask of you once more :

Is there a difference between being " created " by a loving God and
" sprouting " from Chaos (nothing/evil) ?

 

[dad]

When young people learn that they come form " nothing" what impact does this have on their "worldview" ? On how they view "themselves" ? Is there a difference between being " created " by a loving God and " sprouting " from Chaos (nothing/evil) ?

Knowing there is a plan, and purpose, and hope for the future brings rest of mind and spirit. It also brings eternal life, believing in Jesus, so the kid doesn't have to face a hopeless meaningless life thinking she or he is an animal, with nothing at the end of the road but the fact they are going to forever die.

 

[reznwerks]

Re: teaching

[quote="The Ascetic Crusader":aff28]When young people learn that they come form " nothing" what impact does this have on their "worldview" ?

Why would you teach them that? Why not teach them that they are special in the universe. In truth humans are special because so far we haven't found anything like us that has as much potential to influence the universe as us. There worldview should reflect the awsom responsibility each one of us have to each other because as such there aren't any more and we are special in the universe.


On how they view "themselves" ? Is there a difference between being " created " by a loving God and " sprouting " from Chaos (nothing/evil) ?

You have a very negative view of people. I don't believe I was created by a loving God and I have no problems with the fact I am special in the universe. Your ego allows you to believe that somehow the universe revolves around you and that if you plead hard enough the creator will bend his plans and alter the laws of nature to suit your whims.

As expected , another question goes unanswered.

I ask of you once more :

Is there a difference between being " created " by a loving God and
" sprouting " from Chaos (nothing/evil) ?[/quote:aff28]
Yes their is a difference, the first claim is false and the second is true. As to being "evil" that is your personal opinion and without basis of fact.Hard evidence trumps belief every day.

 

[SyntaxVorlon]

Actually according to the evidence the universe will expand exponentially, as the Cosmological Constant has taken the reigns from matter in energy density dominance.

I mean why would the universe be geocentric, why would the Earth still exist at all. It's just a ball of rock falling across a void. The fact that we exist on it is incidental to its conditions, other planets exist, probably earthlike ones with life. Why shouldn't the universe revolve around them once 'God's big plan' goes into phase "pointless waste of time reworking the universe"? :roll:

I mean, really isn't this all self serving anthropic tripe? Why should the human race be exalted? You don't have any evidence that it does beyond the Scriptures, which were written by human beings, which may well have written it in a way that was misleading. Your god's 'word' has been mistranslated and argued over for millenia. But then by this point you aren't listening, which isn't surprising. You christians have been waiting for the second coming since Jesus left, expecting it to come at any minute. The APOSTLES thought he was coming back within their lifetimes. The bible, new testament or old, is unreliable as a method of prediction.

 

[dad]

Actually according to the evidence the universe will expand exponentially, as the Cosmological Constant has taken the reigns from matter in energy density dominance.

So I've heard the latest belief leanings are in that direction. But of course, that is dealing strictly with theory about this physical universe, and how we think it operates, and using that, projecting the same into the future mentally! The result is purely a what if. IF it were always to remain physical only matter (which cannot be evidenced, tested, observed, or anything else) - THEN we would see this and that and likely the other thing. It has nothing to do with the big question, just a sort of 'in box' musing.

[quote:0a7b0]I mean why would the universe be geocentric, why would the Earth still exist at all. It's just a ball of rock falling across a void.

Because it existed before the rest of the universe, and is where God will live Personally forever! We are IT! I think the new heavens will be so different, I don't see why the rest of the universe then will not revolve around us! That's how huge, and different the change will be.

The fact that we exist on it is incidental to its conditions, other planets exist, probably earthlike ones with life. Why shouldn't the universe revolve around them once 'God's big plan' goes into phase "pointless waste of time reworking the universe"? :roll:

As I said, This is where He chose to create, and the rest folowed later. Also this is the future HQ, the future forever home of the One True God. There is plenty of life out there, only it is in the seperated (spiritual) universe. My guess is there may besome life in our solar system. or remnant therof, from flood time ejected material, and water from earth that hit planets as meteors, and such.

I mean, really isn't this all self serving anthropic tripe?

No, it's God's truth, contrary to the devil's doctrines that are taught to men.

Why should the human race be exalted? You don't have any evidence that it does beyond the Scriptures, which were written by human beings, which may well have written it in a way that was misleading.

No other book represents a record from before the flood. It can help unlock some mysteries of the universe.

Your god's 'word' has been mistranslated and argued over for millenia. But then by this point you aren't listening, which isn't surprising. You christians have been waiting for the second coming since Jesus left, expecting it to come at any minute. The APOSTLES thought he was coming back within their lifetimes. The bible, new testament or old, is unreliable as a method of prediction.

[/quote:0a7b0]
Of course we wait for the second coming. Paul cooled their jets and spelled it out. The man of sin, the AntiChrist MUST first ne revealed. We need to read the signs of the times. For example, one thing this vile man does is stopt the daily sacrifice. That has not been going for thousands of years. When we see that, you will know we are at heaven's door. Then, I could tell you down to some months when Jesus returns. Later, when the 7 year covenant is broken by him, we can count the days!
Never have we seen even these things yet. Understanding it requires the spirit, and so it is natural men debate the true meaning of some things. After all, we have some people who think they are supposed to do religious wars using God as an excuse, and other horid things.