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Great Trib Not 3 1/2 years!

Zero Link

Member
15"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Danielâ€â€let the reader understand 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until nowâ€â€and never to be equaled again. 22If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. (Matt. 24:15-22, NIV).

Matthew emphasizes the Lord’s return in the context of an unexampled time of “great distress,†which is initiated by ‘â€Âthe abomination that causes desolation.†This is almost universally understood as an attempt by someone to demand worship of himself rather than of God in the temple.

Immediately after the great distress Jesus will return, but no one can know exactly when:


29"Immediately after the distress of those days "'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.' 30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other…36"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. (Matt. 24:29-31, 36, NIV).

Please refer to the figure below for clarification:





The Problem of a 3-1/2 Year-Long Great Distress

An apparent contradiction arises, however, which all views attempt to reconcile: On the one hand, Jesus said His return will be immediately at the end of the great distress. Some have concluded that the distress lasts precisely 3-1/2 years. Some texts appear to say it lasts for 42 months, or 1,260 days, which equates to 3-1/2 years in prophetic years (Rev. 11:2-3; 12:6). However, Jesus also said His return would be at a time at which “no one knows the day or hour,†thus, it cannot be 3-1/2 years from the abomination that causes desolation, or one could tell the exact day and hour. Thus, the problem:

a. Jesus’ return is after the great distress, which is apparently 3-1/2 years.
b. Jesus’ return is after the great distress, at an unknown time.

So, which is it? The solution may lie in a peculiar phrase used in Daniel and Revelation. Although some texts seem to assign the equivalent of 3-1/2 years in either days or months, other texts seem to state that the time of great tribulation will last for “a time, times, and a half a time†(Dan. 7:25; 12:7; Rev. 12:14). Confident that point “a†above must be trueâ€â€that the great distress lasts for 3-1/2 yearsâ€â€many conclude that “a time, times, and a half a time†is precisely 3-1/2 years. However, this assumption is problematic for several reasons.

First, it ignores the Lord’s explicit statement that “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.†Second, “it ignores “b†above, whereby Jesus’ return must be at an unknown hour, and yet immediately follow the great distress. Third, the Greek word kairos used in Revelation 12:14 does not mean any specific length of time, per se.

So, how are points “a†and “b†reconciled?

A Possible Solutionâ€â€The Pre-Wrath Rapture Model

Others (John Calvin, John Goldingay, Theodor F.D. Kliefoth, Carl F. Keil, et. al.)(1) have proposed that “a time, times, and a half a time†does not represent 3-1/2 years. Rather, it indicates a period that would seem to go on without end, and then will suddenly be endedâ€â€a perfect paraphrase of how Jesus described His return in Matthew 24, by the way. It is as if 3-1/2 years was granted to Satan during the great distress, but then God decides to cut it shorter than 3-1/2 years after all. Incidentally, Jesus said of that time:

“For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until nowâ€â€and never to be equaled again. If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened†(Matt. 24:21-22).
So, the solution appears to be that, what was originally intended to last 3-1/2 years is shortened to a lesser amount. How short? Only God knowsâ€â€Jesus’ exact point:


"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father†(Matt. 24:36, NIV).

As for the length of the great distress in The Book of Daniel, Daniel himself was also told that he could not know its length,

5 “Then I, Daniel, looked, and there before me stood two others, one on this bank of the river and one on the opposite bank. 6 One of them said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, "How long will it be before these astonishing things are fulfilled?" 7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, "It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed." 8 I heard, but I did not understand. So I asked, "My lord, what will the outcome of all this be?" 9 He replied, "Go your way, Daniel, because the words are closed up and sealed until the time of the end†(Dan. 12:5-9, NIV).
The reader should not be discouraged that the length of the great distress cannot be known; Jesus did not know how long it was, and Daniel was not able to discover its length, either. Rather, we should be encouraged, because the fact that we cannot know the length further ensures that Scripture lines up with other Scripture. You cannot know how long it will last, so that you cannot know when Jesus will return. Problem solved.

I found it on a site.. JM posted the url when talking about Jesus talking to Paul.
 
Hi Zero Link,

The Bible does not say that the 3.5 years will be cut short. It says the tribulation will be cut short. I take that to mean that instead of the Great Tribulation going on indefinitly it is instead cut short to 3 1/2 years. The 'beast' is kept on a short leash.

Daniel 7:25 (KJV)
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Daniel 7:26 (KJV)
26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

In Dan.12:7 the phrase "time, times an half" is used. This refers to the 3.5 years as the cycle of the Feasts. The Hebrew word there for time is moed (Strongs #4150). Moed is often translated 'feast'. So the passage could be rendered "a cycle of Feasts, two cycles of Feasts and a half cycle of Feasts.

The Feast Days are oriented to the Harvests in the Middle East. And a solar year is also harvest related.

peace in Christ,

nol
 
ahh, but see if it was 3.5 years then we ALL will know when the Jesus Second coming is, then we can conclude to when the end of the world is.. When the bible specificly tells us that no one knows when the end of the world is going to be, not even Jesus. So why would God make it soo obvious to us? Don't you think Jesus or at least one of the angels would've figured it out alooong time ago if we *the humans* know that the great tribulation ends at 3.5 years? Because in the bible it says immidieatly after the Great Tribulation ends Jesus will be arriving to get his people... The PreWrath Rapture.... and if we can figure out that then we could figure out the time, and Jesus and the Angels can't? Cmon now.. thats why it will be cut short, to trick the devil into thinking he have 3.5 years to torcher humans on earth. Its all making sense now though.. Because 3.5 years of hiding from the entire universe? Cmon now, no one would be safe from the lawless one.. and there will be believers who have made it out of the great tribulation.... and if we did know when the great tribulation ends, we would also know when the world would end, and when Jesus will be returning.... Thats why he is going to cut the great tribulation short, because if he don't, there will be no more elects, none of God's people, then what would be the cause of Jesus to come again besides to get the dead?
 
so you are saying that guy is wrong, on the other topic you said that guy knew what he was talking about. :-? Sounds to me like he does... like i said if it was 3 1/2 years then we all would know when the world would end.. and when the day of the lord will be.
 
Zero Link said:
so you are saying that guy is wrong, on the other topic you said that guy knew what he was talking about. :-? Sounds to me like he does... like i said if it was 3 1/2 years then we all would know when the world would end.. and when the day of the lord will be.

And like I posted in the other thread, "What I understand from the quote posted, the Rapture happens when Christ returns to pour out His wrath, this is the second coming and unfolds with the "consumation of the Kingdom, Israel's salvation, Armageddon, and the ushering in of the Millennial age."

Alan Kurschner is in good company and should be viewed as "orthodox" in terms of the Prewrath Rapture view. His blog mates include Charles Cooper, Roger Best and Steve McReynolds. You've created a rabbit trail by assuming the time can be discerned between seals.

Peace,

jm
 
When?

There can be no doubt, after God telling us at least 7 times, that the last half of the 70th week will be 1260 days (exactly to the day for at least two events), 42 months (may be a day or two off from 30, so listed as months rather than days for at least two events), and then time, times and half of time at least twice.

So we definitely have a fixed period of time, that the two witnesses will be witnessing, that the Gentiles will be trampling the court of the temple, that the beast will have authority (not necessarily ability) and that the remnant will be hidden and protected.

So how long will this time of intense persectuion last? It will start with the abomination event, and go for an undetermined amount of time. It is written that God will shorten this time of intense persecution, but how?

God will do it through the plagues poured out on the kingdom of the beast. Satan will be attempting to kill all Jews, all Christians, and eventually, all humans, but God has other plans. Each plague will make it more difficult for the armies of the beast to accomplish anything. Finally, some time before the 1260 days are up, the beast is rendered almost helpless, for all the people that he used to persecute, are sitting in total darkness, gnawing their tongues for pain, and killing someone is the last thing on their mind!

So the time of great persecution is cut short of the 42 months, not because the beast's authority is taken away, but because he has no humans that are able to do anything but moan in pain! However, according to Revelation, the MAIN work on the end times, Jesus will not return until after the 70th week has finished. Therefore, there will be an undertermined amount of time where no one will know the day nor the hour. That said, though, those that know the scriptures, will know that after the great earthquake of the 7th vial, that officially closes the 70th week, that it will be perhaps days, not weeks and they will see Jesus split the dark sky! At this same time, after the end of the 70th week, there will be more cosmic signs in the sky, just like at the 6th seal. These signs will be the warning that Jesus is about to mount the white horse.

Coop
 
The most reassuring promise is in 1 Thessalonians 5 - that we who love Jesus are not destined to go thru the time of God's wrath, but to be saved in the instant airlift Rapture rescue of 1 Thess 4

15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
18Therefore encourage each other with these words.


1 Thessalonians 5
1Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

4But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5You are all sons of the light and sons of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be alert and self-controlled. 7For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8But since we belong to the day, let us be self-controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet.

9For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. 11Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.


In Revelation 2-3 the church is on Earth

Revelation 4:1 shows the Rapture

From then on, Revelation alternates between the church rejoicing in Heaven & the judgements poured out on Earth

The Rapture is thus before 25% of mankind die in Revelation 6:8

& before a third of survivors die in war begun @ R Euphrates - Revelation 9:15-18

Let alone the total devastation of Revelation 16-19 & Joel 3 & Zechariah 14 etc
 
MrVersatile48 said:
The most reassuring promise is in 1 Thessalonians 5 - that we who love Jesus are not destined to go thru the time of God's wrath, but to be saved in the instant airlift Rapture rescue of 1 Thess 4

15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
18Therefore encourage each other with these words.


1 Thessalonians 5
1Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

4But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5You are all sons of the light and sons of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be alert and self-controlled. 7For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8But since we belong to the day, let us be self-controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet.

9For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. 11Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.


In Revelation 2-3 the church is on Earth

Revelation 4:1 shows the Rapture

From then on, Revelation alternates between the church rejoicing in Heaven & the judgements poured out on Earth

The Rapture is thus before 25% of mankind die in Revelation 6:8

& before a third of survivors die in war begun @ R Euphrates - Revelation 9:15-18

Let alone the total devastation of Revelation 16-19 & Joel 3 & Zechariah 14 etc

MrVersatile48, I agree with your premise, but disagree with your scriptures.

In Revelation 2-3 the church is on Earth

Agreed. That was about 95 AD.

Revelation 4:1 shows the Rapture

Not even hardly. Not even barely: in fact, not at all! That is a HUGE stretch of scripture, that is unfounded and unneeded, and gives fuel to the prewrath and post tribbers. All Rev. 4:1 is - is God calling John up to heaven. What? CAn't God call someone to heaven without the masses screaming "rapture?" Did the rapture take place in 95 AD? Of course not. So that is just poor bible exegesis.

From then on, Revelation alternates between the church rejoicing in Heaven & the judgements poured out on Earth

Again, I must disagree. In the book, there is about 2000 years that must take place, before the church gets to heaven. What comes after Rev. 4? In general, the first 5 seals, which cover these almost 2000 years. The first seals were broken about 33 AD. John gives us hints of this, if we are astute enough to catch them.

The Rapture is thus before 25% of mankind die in Revelation 6:8

Sorry again, but 25% dying is another myth! The text does not say this. What it does say is that the three horsemen are given authority to kill over 1/4 or 25% of the planet. And at this time in the story, or vision, it is about 33 AD, and the rapture will not happen for almost 2000 years. These three horsemen rode out when their seal was broken, about 33 AD. They have been causing wars and death, for almost 2000 years.

Coop
 
Hi Coop,

These three horsemen rode out when their seal was broken, about 33 AD. They have been causing wars and death, for almost 2000 years


This is close to the view I have of the first 4 Seals. The 4 Horsemen (or three) have been running for centuries IMO. Cycles in history are quite recognizable.

I see Emperor Constantine (of the fourth century) in the category of a white horse rider. Talk about a source of religious deception.

blessings in Christ,

nol
 
nol said:
Hi Coop,




This is close to the view I have of the first 4 Seals. The 4 Horsemen (or three) have been running for centuries IMO. Cycles in history are quite recognizable.

I see Emperor Constantine (of the fourth century) in the category of a white horse rider. Talk about a source of religious deception.

blessings in Christ,

nol

Since the white horse went out first, I am convinced that he is to represent the church of Jesus Christ. What follows, seals 2-4, are Satan trying to stop the church.

Coop
 
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