Hey, I think I agree with the Augustinian View of Predestination/Election

[John Zain]

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Please refer to post #2.
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[John Zain]

So, I now just happen to agree with the current unpopular view of such great theologians as:
St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Jonathan Edwards.

The natural (unsaved) man
-- is born with a sin nature and is totally separated from God.
-- is at enmity with God, which means he is an enemy of God.
-- is owed absolutely nothing, nada, zero, etc. by the totally Holy God.
-- insists on following his fallen nature and naturally chooses this over following God.
-- has been blinded to spiritual truth by Satan (which God has allowed):
“But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,
whose minds the god of this age (Satan) has blinded, who do not believe,
lest the light of the gospel … should shine on them.” (2 Cor.4:4)
-- naturally considers the gospel to be foolishness:
“For the message of the cross (the gospel) is foolishness to those who are perishing” (1 Cor.1:18)
-- exercises his free will and miraculously all of a sudden chooses Jesus and his gospel ???

The free-will verses
“All”, “whoever”, “everyone who” believes … CAN be viewed as referring only to God’s elect.
In the OT, God proves that natural unsaved man cannot (or is not willing to) obey God, etc.
God chose His “special people” Israel to represent the human race, and they failed miserably.
[Go ahead and “choose this day to believe and follow God”. If you are able to do this, super.]
This is why He promised to institute His new/better covenant with His Messiah-Redeemer-Savior.
In the NT, those who believe have miraculously been given the necessary faith to believe.

Saving FAITH is a GIFT from God by His GRACE
Paul was privately trained by the Lord for 17 years (Gal.1:18, 2:1) prior to starting his ministry.
“For by grace (undeserved favor) you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves;
it is the gift of God, not of works (anything you do), lest anyone should boast.” (Eph.2:8-9)
Natural sin-laden, rebellious, etc. man is simply NOT capable of coming up with his own saving faith.

God has the right to do whatever He desires (whether you like it or not)
In Romans 9:9-24, Paul explains:
-- God chose Jacob over Esau before they were born (i.e. before they had done any good or evil).
-- The choice did not depend on any of God’s foreknowledge (knowledge of the future).
-- The choice did not depend on the 2 twins: “not of works (anything they did) but of Him who calls”.
-- The choice was strictly: “that the purpose of God according to election might stand”.
-- God has mercy and compassion on whom He chooses.
-- Who is chosen does not depend on man who desires it, works for it, etc.
-- Who is chosen only depends on God who shows mercy to certain ones.
-- The analogy of the potter and the clay from Isaiah 29:16 and 45:9-13.
-- God prepares vessels for honor and vessels for dishonor.
-- God prepares vessels of wrath prepared for destruction.
-- God prepares vessels of mercy prepared beforehand for glory.
-- God called the Roman Christians to belong to this latter group.

God knows peoples’ hearts and who He wants to have in Heaven
“the LORD searches every heart and understands every motive behind the thoughts” (1 Chr.28:9).
“I dwell in the high and holy place with him who has a contrite and humble spirit” (Isaiah 57:15)
A repentant heart is necessary: “… unless you repent you will all likewise perish” (Luke 13:3,5)
The poor (in various ways) are the most likely to have the right heart attitude:
“He (Father God) has anointed Me (Jesus) to preach the gospel to the poor” (Luke 4:18)
“Has God not chosen the poor to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom?” (James 2:5)

God predestines and chooses His elect
“God's elect ... who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father” (1 Pet.1:1-2)
“He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world … having predestined us” (Eph.1:4-5)
“And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed (in the gospel)” (Acts 13:48)

God’s guardian angels protect His people until they obtain salvation
“Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for
those who will (in the future) inherit salvation?” (Heb.1:14)

God does the choosing, not us
“All that the Father gives to Me will come to Me” (John 6:37)
“No one can (has the ability to) come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him” (John 6:44)
“You did not choose Me, but I chose you …” (John 15:16)

Man appears to have the freedom to choose
God’s plan of salvation: the sinless Messiah came to die on the cross for the sins of the elect,
and the elect must hear this gospel (good news), believe it, and believe-trust-obey- love Jesus.
The free-will verses encourage evangelists to take the gospel to the 4 corners of the earth.
The gospel must be presented to the elect before they can respond to it. And presenting it
to the non-elect ensures that they cannot claim at the Judgment that they never heard it.

The Augustinian view of predestination
Man is totally incapable of being saved on his own, but depends totally on God’s grace.
Man is not required to make any free-will choice to co-operate with God’s grace.
God’s choice of His elect has nothing at all to do with their choosing/believing the gospel.
All humans are destined to be separated from God, but God has chosen to grant mercy to some.

Note:
If you claim that God is not merciful enough (or, indeed, if you find any fault at all with God),
then you are committing blasphemy against Him. So, it's best not to judge God.

 

[Fedusenko]

I doubt there will be any judging of God regarding this tread... I hope you weren't using Him as a defense for your beliefs, whether right or wrong, because that would be taking His name in vain.

I think there might be some conflict between your freewill and the knowing who he wants in heaven sections.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[HisSheep]

You are not alone John Zain.

Predestination is the plain teaching of Jesus, Paul, Peter and John.

It took Augustine years to come to this realization.

Have you read his "Treatise on the Predestination of the Saints"?

Any other view makes man out to be his own savior.

Be prepared to be called a heretic by the freewill crowd.

-HisSheep

 

[Fedusenko]

HisSheep, have you studied Augustine, not his work, but his life? You might find influences that biased his opinion.

Any other view makes man out to be his own savior.

That is simply not true, mine for example, states that I must obey God and live righteously, though this does not make me righteous. Only through grace am I made righteous and that happens on the day of judgement. I can not save myself, that is up to the man upstairs, but I can live for Him by obeying Him.

 

[childeye]

HisSheep, have you studied Augustine, not his work, but his life? You might find influences that biased his opinion.



That is simply not true, mine for example, states that I must obey God and live righteously, though this does not make me righteous. Only through grace am I made righteous and that happens on the day of judgement. I can not save myself, that is up to the man upstairs, but I can live for Him by obeying Him.

I think you misunderstood HisSheep. From what I've read, it seems he was agreeing with you.

 

[Fedusenko]

If that is the case then God gave me a foot because I have a mouth.

 

[Eventide]

Predestination and election are fairly basic biblical terms when they're centered upon the Lord Jesus Christ and Him alone.. although much confusion arises when men are led to believe that God elected them along with Christ..

The Lord Jesus Christ alone is the elect of God, the chosen one in whom He delights.. and when a person is placed into the body of Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit, they become the elect of God by virtue of being IN HIM..

Predestination is simple in that it says that we were predestined to the adoption of children by Jesus Christ.

God choose NONE in the first Adam.. ALL in Christ, the last Adam. For if we shall seek to save our life we shall lose it, and if we lose it for Christ and the gospel we shall save it.

No exceptions..

And BTW.. Augustine also taught Amillennialism.. which is about as wrong as it gets imo..

 

[John Zain]

I have updated this section in the original post ...

The natural (unsaved) man
-- is born with a sin nature and is totally separated from God.
-- is at enmity with God, which means he is an enemy of God.
-- is owed absolutely nothing, nada, zero, etc. by the totally Holy God.
-- insists on following his fallen nature and naturally chooses this over following God.
-- has been blinded to spiritual truth by Satan (which God has allowed):
“But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,
whose minds the god of this age (Satan) has blinded, who do not believe,
lest the light of the gospel … should shine on them.” (2 Cor.4:4)
-- naturally considers the gospel to be foolishness:
“For the message of the cross (the gospel) is foolishness to those who are perishing” (1 Cor.1:18)
-- exercises his free will and miraculously all of a sudden chooses Jesus and his gospel ???

 

[smaller]

Predestination and election are fairly basic biblical terms when they're centered upon the Lord Jesus Christ and Him alone.. although much confusion arises when men are led to believe that God elected them along with Christ..

The Lord Jesus Christ alone is the elect of God, the chosen one in whom He delights.. and when a person is placed into the body of Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit, they become the elect of God by virtue of being IN HIM..

Predestination is simple in that it says that we were predestined to the adoption of children by Jesus Christ.

God choose NONE in the first Adam.. ALL in Christ, the last Adam. For if we shall seek to save our life we shall lose it, and if we lose it for Christ and the gospel we shall save it.

No exceptions..

And BTW.. Augustine also taught Amillennialism.. which is about as wrong as it gets imo..

I've seen you bring this up several times, that only Christ is 'elected' or 'the elect.'

Election pertains to whom God will elect to 'hear and believe' in this present life.

Romans 11:
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Those who 'hear and believe' are the remnant of believers who hear, believe and obey at any particular time. Jesus is certainly Gods Perfect Elect, His Begotten Son. Those who are 'elected' to hear and believe enter into Him as a part of His Body. So to say Jesus is the only elect would not be accurate as to the 'elect' components that make up His Body Construction.

s

 

[Eventide]

I've seen you bring this up several times, that only Christ is 'elected' or 'the elect.'

Yes, it's not Christ AND me, it's Christ IN me, that's our hope of glory.

Matthew 12:18-21 is referenced from Isaiah 42.. clearly teaching that the Lord Jesus Christ is the chosen one of God in whom the Father delights..

There's a boatload of scripture to amplify this.. and perhaps most important is Romans 5, where we are told that by the offense of one (the first Adam) that all men are under condemnation and that by the righteousness of one (Christ, the last Adam), that the free gift has come up all men to the justification of life..

If any man shall come after Me, he must deny himself, take up his cross and follow Me.. for if we shall seek to save our life we shall lose it, and if we lose it for Christ and the gospel, we shall save it.

I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet not I. but Christ liveth in me..

Set your affections on the things above, and not on the things on earth, for ye are dead and your life is hid with Christ in God..

Put off the old man who is corrupt according to deceitful lusts and put on the Lord Jesus Christ..

There are none good but one, and that is God..

etc etc..

Election pertains to whom God will elect to 'hear and believe' in this present life.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God..

When the Philippian Jailor asked Paul.. "What must I DO to be saved ?".. the answer is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.

Romans 11:
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

The context of Romans 11 here is the nation of Israel, not the church of God..

Those who 'hear and believe' are the remnant of believers who hear, believe and obey at any particular time. Jesus is certainly Gods Perfect Elect, His Begotten Son. Those who are 'elected' to hear and believe enter into Him as a part of His Body. So to say Jesus is the only elect would not be accurate as to the 'elect' components that make up His Body Construction.

s

The reason why people are referred to as the elect in scripture is because they are IN CHRIST, members of HIS BODY, His flesh and bone... ie, not because THEY are the elect, but rather because Christ is the elect.

 

[smaller]

The context of Romans 11 here is the nation of Israel, not the church of God..

The reason why people are referred to as the elect in scripture is because they are IN CHRIST, members of HIS BODY, His flesh and bone... ie, not because THEY are the elect, but rather because Christ is the elect.

Just pointing out that individual christians are termed and addressed as 'the elect' as well.

Matthew 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Matthew 24:31
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

2 Peter 1:10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Christ + body components are the elect. Not trying to divide any of same, just pointing out that individual believers at the present time are 'the elect.'

s

 

[Eventide]

Just pointing out that individual christians are termed and addressed as 'the elect' as well.

Yes they are, and I believe that the obvious reason WHY they're referred to as the elect is because they are IN CHRIST.. members of HIS BODY.. and He is the chosen one of God, Mine Elect, in Whom My soul delighteth.

Matthew 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Matthew 24:31
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

What's interesting about these verses are that they pertain to Israel.. its context is clearly that.. and of course in the end Israel will be delivered, for the Deliverer shall come from Sion and turn ungodliness from JACOB..

2 Peter 1:10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

And God chooses all in Christ, the Last Adam, the second man.. that's our calling and election.. in Him.

Christ + body components are the elect. Not trying to divide any of same, just pointing out that individual believers at the present time are 'the elect.'

s

I agree, although imo the only reason that we are the elect is because we are IN CHRIST.. the One and only one who is the elect of God, the chosen one in whom He delights...

That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him..

I believe that the elect of God includes not only the church of God (things in heaven), but also the Israel of God which is an earthly entity.. which the verses from Matt 24 speak to.. in the time of the end.. when Israel is delivered.

 

[Davies]

-- The choice did not depend on any of God’s foreknowledge (knowledge of the future).

“God's elect ... who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father†(1 Pet.1:1-2)

Hi John,

I enjoyed the post. I'm not sure what to think about Augustine because I haven't studied him. I did find what I quoted above to be contradictory. If God did choose according to His foreknowledge, it begs the question, how does God choose?

- Davies

 

[John Zain]

Can man exercise his free will and all of a sudden choose Jesus and His "foolish" gospel ???
The word makes it clear that ...
man is incapable of doing this on his own ... so God must do it for him.
For me, this is Paul's clearest message about HOW man is SAVED ...
“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves;
it is the gift of God, not of works (anything you do), lest anyone should boast.” Eph. 2:8-9
(This is from the NKJV ... please check all of the other versions you wish.)
Translation ...
The faith to believe is a gift from God, which is by God's grace (undeserved favor).

The following is why Armenians have twice as much FAITH as Calvinists ...
And here is why some people say that Armenians have a “double blessing” of FAITH.
With their free will, they drum up enough FAITH to choose Jesus and His “foolish” gospel.
Then, God comes along and says:
“Just in case you guys don’t have quite enough faith, I’ll give you a free gift of more faith.
Now, you have a double portion of faith … This is My grace; isn’t it wonderful.”

 

[spartakis]

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
I could continue on how he Loves the World, Died for the world, dont want to see any perish. He draws all men with enabling grace.

 

[John Zain]

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
I could continue on how he Loves the World, Died for the world,
dont want to see any perish. He draws all men with enabling grace.

If I get your meaning (and I'm sure I do), then obviously Jesus lied in your John 12:32.
If He draws everyone "with enabling grace", what happened to everyone?

For our view of the "all", "everyone", etc. verses, why not check out
"The free-will verses" section in post #2?