How are we suppose to GIVE?

[Imagican]

We have the words of Christ PLAINLY offering that when we GIVE that we are not even to let ONE OF OUR OWN HANDS know what the other is doing.

With this in mind, HOW can a 'church' justify accepting offerings through credit cards or personal checks?

And, how could an organization or individual CLAIMING to BE a 'follower of Christ' offer placing the BEST givers names on plaques or making the BIGGER givers SPECIAL members?

Blessings,

MEC

 

[stovebolts]

Mike,

Are you saying that we are not to give to the Church?... To say such a thing is to completely miss the intent behind the words of Jesus.

Matthew 6:2-4 When therefore thou doest alms, sound not a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have received their reward. But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: that thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father who seeth in secret shall recompense thee.

Jesus looks at the heart and intent of the giver, not what was given.... There are many stories about this that range from the teachers and scribes on the corner, to the widow who gives all that she has...

Mark 12:41-42 And he sat down over against the treasury, and beheld how the multitude cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much. And there came a poor widow, and she cast in two mites, which make a farthing.

Mark 12:43-44 And he called unto him his disciples, and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, This poor widow cast in more than all they that are casting into the treasury: for they all did cast in of their superfluity; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.

Acts 5:1-11 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, and kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet. But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thy heart to lie to the Holy Spirit, and to keep back part of the price of the land? While it remained, did it not remain thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thy power? How is it that thou hast conceived this thing in thy heart? thou has not lied unto men, but unto God. And Ananias hearing these words fell down and gave up the ghost: and great fear came upon all that heard it. And the young men arose and wrapped him round, and they carried him out and buried him. And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in. And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much. And she said, Yea, for so much. But Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to try the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them that have buried thy husband are at the door, and they shall carry thee out. And she fell down immediately at his feet, and gave up the ghost: and the young men came in and found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her by her husband. And great fear came upon the whole church, and upon all that heard these things.

 

[follower of Christ]

We have the words of Christ PLAINLY offering that when we GIVE that we are not even to let ONE OF OUR OWN HANDS know what the other is doing.

With this in mind, HOW can a 'church' justify accepting offerings through credit cards or personal checks?

And, how could an organization or individual CLAIMING to BE a 'follower of Christ' offer placing the BEST givers names on plaques or making the BIGGER givers SPECIAL members?

Blessings,

MEC

Im definitely against the plaques and other manners of publicizing ones gifts, but Jesus' point about not letting one hand know what they other was doing was simply about keeping things to oneself and not doing what the Jews were in announcing their giving and fasting for all to see to get praise from men.

 

[stovebolts]

While I disagree with the plaques, again, God looks at the heart of man and thus, I don't think it's as much about the plaque as it is about the motive.

Example. I would discern that if one were to give a large portion to a church simply to get his name on a plaque, then He has received his reward. (recognition). Can God still use that gift to his glory? Absolutely.

However, if that same person were giving for the purpose to further the Kingdom of God on this earth and not out of self recognition, I see no harm in the matter. What concerns me, is when we start creating rules (hedging) to keep a particular perception. Fact is, if somebody is looking for recognition, they don't need a plaque to get it, and not everyone who has a plaque, gave for the purpose of a plaque.

 

[follower of Christ]

While I disagree with the plaques, again, God looks at the heart of man and thus, I don't think it's as much about the plaque as it is about the motive.

Example. I would discern that if one were to give a large portion to a church simply to get his name on a plaque, then He has received his reward. (recognition). Can God still use that gift to his glory? Absolutely.

However, if that same person were giving for the purpose to further the Kingdom of God on this earth and not out of self recognition, I see no harm in the matter. What concerns me, is when we start creating rules (hedging) to keep a particular perception. Fact is, if somebody is looking for recognition, they don't need a plaque to get it, and not everyone who has a plaque, gave for the purpose of a plaque.

I definitely agree that its about not tooting our own horn. I guess if someone else does it for us thats a bit different.
I personally ask that my name is kept private when I give. I frankly dont want anyone knowing nor do I care to be remembered.

 

[stovebolts]

I am like you, I ask that my name be kept private. However, there are times in our church where somebody does something that just needs to be shared and they are recognized as an inspiration to others.

We have a plaque that recognizes a normal, working class gentleman for his gift that basically paid for the cost of construction for our worship area. Basically, he saw a need, had the means to do something about it and did it. His giving was inspirational for us, and it helped others to be better givers and as such, he permitted the plaque.

 

[Imagican]

Stove,

You should KNOW ME better than that. i have said NO SUCH thing.

What I have asked is HOW are we SUPPOSE to GIVE?

Those that maintain the 'Church' ARE subject to being fed, housed, and their basic needs met. Them AND their families.

I am well aware of the FACT that we ARE to 'give' and that a portion of EVERYTHING we OWN belongs to God.

I simply question the methods that are employed by MANY churches CONCERNING the WAY we are to give.

If I give you a 'check', Stove, you KNOW where it came from and EXACTLY how much it was good for.

The same applies to a 'credit card'.

Now, you tell ME, what does Christ explain to us concerning GIVING and HOW we ARE to DO it.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[handy]

How are we to give?

Cheerfully. :D

And that's about it.

Christ never, not once in His ministry, brought up the issue of whether one could use checks or credit cards for giving. He called attention to the widow, every one knew exactly what she gave at that point in time and His reasons for doing so were simply to point out that she gave out of her want not out of any excess, and therefore her contribution was to be all the more highly valued.

The text about not letting one's left hand know what one's right hand is doing is being taken totally out of context if one is trying to make it say that one cannot use checks or credit cards to give offerings to the church. The full context, and it's not just about giving money, but also encompasses prayer and fasting is exactly what Jeff said it was, not practicing righteousness before men.

 

[stovebolts]

Mike,
From another thread you posted,

A bum standing on the side of the road with his 'will work for food' sign in his hand. I couldn't tell you 'good folks' HOW MANY times I have been in the company of them that 'claim' to BE Christian, when I hand the guy a couple of bucks, those with me proclaim, "Why would you give that bum money? You KNOW he's only going to use it to buy drugs or alcohol." I can only shake my head in disbelief. From ALL that has been offered concerning HOW we are to 'WALK', how a 'Christian' could ask me WHY I would give to someone ASKING is BEYOND me.

Let's look at this for a moment ok?

1. You gave when everyone else in the car was with you. Why didn't you just pass the bum up and come back at a later date when nobody was with you?
2. When you gave, everyone knew how much you gave (a couple of bucks). Why didn't you at least try to hide how much you gave?
3. The bum knew that you gave the money to him. Why didn't you find somebody that you didn't know, put the money in an envelope and paid for person X to deliver the cash?
4. There is a realistic chance that this bum would purchase drugs or alcohol. Why would you take that chance?

Now then, with all these questions about giving, it would be easy to build a legalistic case against your mode of giving. After all, it could be interpreted as you seeking recognition or at the very least, enabling.

Doesn't that just take the whole spirit of giving away?...

If I give you a 'check', Stove, you KNOW where it came from and EXACTLY how much it was good for.

The same applies to a 'credit card'.

Now, you tell ME, what does Christ explain to us concerning GIVING and HOW we ARE to DO it.

Ya lost me Mike. What does knowing how much you gave me have to do with anything? If your that concerned, then like I said, put your money in an envelope, pay somebody that you don't know to deliver the envelope full of cash to me and you'll never have to be concerned about being recognized as the giver. See, problem solved ;)

 

[follower of Christ]

As far as giving goes, I believe we SHOULD be as certain as possible that the person we're giving to has GENUINE need.

I can count at least a dozen times watching other believers just throw money at someone who claimed to need the money for food or rent who instead wasted it.
One gent in particular took $100 from a friend to supposedly keep from being evicted, then came by showing off his new tinted windows in his car. Very quickly the giving brother found out that a woman needed genuine help with her own rent and he was left unable to help her because he'd given what he had to the window tinter.
One guy said he needed food and rent money for the month then we found out later that the reason that he did was that he set his own money aside for a vacation for him and his family. The guy who gave him the money is now out of work and looking at losing his home and no one who hes helped seems to be around unless they think he has a few extra bucks.

I give when I know that its going to good use. I personally believe we are to be good stewards with ALL that God has loaned us...including being sure that His money that we give someone else isnt going to be wasted on frivolous junk, drinking or drugs.

 

[handy]

I agree that it's important not to give money to addicts or alcoholics. If one wants to help a addict or alcoholic on the street, by all means take him/her to a place where they can be fed, or run through the drive through and give them a bag of hamburgers so they can eat. But cash, not a good idea. Not only could you become a stumbling block into that person's sin, but you could also put the person at risk of being attacked by others on the street if they see him/her getting money.

 

[Imagican]

Amazing how much FAITH we place in money.

Stove,

My point was NOT that ''I'' have a problem with the WAY that I give. I was simply offering that we were TOLD to GIVE for the SAKE of LOVE. And we were also told that we are to build our 'treasures' in HEAVEN.

But, if we give for 'glory', we have received our 'reward' HERE ON EARTH. That EVERYONE KNOWS what we have given is what WE GET.

Handy, I have NOT taken the words OUT OF CONTEXT but accepted them COMPLETELY IN CONTEXT. We have been instructed NOT to let one hand know what the other is doing for a PURPOSE. Christ SPECIFICALLY POINTS IT OUT.

And that is the reason that I mentioned 'giving' through a check or credit card.

I guess if one is unable to grasp the point then there is little that I can do to change that.

Those that insist that they can 'pick and choose' WHO they GIVE to:

We have been warned that MANY have been visited by 'angels' UNAWARE. What IF one of these BUMS 'was' an angel. Simply allowing YOU the opportunity to 'build' some treasure in heaven. Yet YOU decided that, "he'll just go out and but drugs or alcohol with ANY money that I may give him''.

I don't remember Christ offering such instruction that we are to JUDGE those that ask. Just that we are to GIVE. And you know, I have NEVER been ASKED for MORE than I could SPARE. Yet Christ told us that if someone ask for a shirt, give em a COAT TOO.

And so far as 'giving to a church', are you SO insecure in your relationship that you BELIEVE that a 'church' can determine what GOD chooses to be DONE with YOUR money BETTER than YOU? For IF God has a specific purpose or use of YOUR money or possessions, AND you have a personal relationship WITH God, then He is WELL able to exercise HIS will in bringing YOUR assets to work FOR HIM. In my opinion, BETTER than MOST of what I have witnessed being done by the churches.

If you are obedient and have FAITH in God, then you KNOW what I am talking about.

And, how about this scenario:

You choose to be a member of a church that you BELIEVE is righteous, only to find out that the pastor who takes your money each week is the ONE DOING the drugs or hiring prostitutes. You die, wake up, and find out that your pastor had actually BEEN a minion of Satan and had led you into a false belief in a false Christ and a false god. And then you remember telling ME what you THOUGHT the 'truth' was. And THEN, you see this guy that looks kind of familiar and IT'S Christ, YOUR MEDIATOR who just happened to BE one of those bums that had asked you for some HELP one day and you had refused. And he's just standing there looking sad and shaking his head back and forth for there is NOTHING that He is able to DO to help you NOW.

Just a 'little thought'.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[stovebolts]

Stove,

My point was NOT that ''I'' have a problem with the WAY that I give. I was simply offering that we were TOLD to GIVE for the SAKE of LOVE. And we were also told that we are to build our 'treasures' in HEAVEN.

But, if we give for 'glory', we have received our 'reward' HERE ON EARTH. That EVERYONE KNOWS what we have given is what WE GET.

I don't think anyone would argue with that ;)

You choose to be a member of a church that you BELIEVE is righteous, only to find out that the pastor who takes your money each week is the ONE DOING the drugs or hiring prostitutes. You die, wake up, and find out that your pastor had actually BEEN a minion of Satan and had led you into a false belief in a false Christ and a false god. And then you remember telling ME what you THOUGHT the 'truth' was. And THEN, you see this guy that looks kind of familiar and IT'S Christ, YOUR MEDIATOR who just happened to BE one of those bums that had asked you for some HELP one day and you had refused. And he's just standing there looking sad and shaking his head back and forth for there is NOTHING that He is able to DO to help you NOW.

I think this would be the exception, not the rule... Regardless, should this effect what you said above?... In other words, when we give, we give to our Lord. If somebody misappropriates the funds, they will answer to our Lord and all the while, we are called to be good Stuarts so it is our responsibility to ensure that misappropriations such as you've explained do not occur. Simply put, it's called being a responsible giver.

I'm not sure about other churches, but where I go, our books are open to anyone, anytime. Actually, the congregation gets reports on every dime and as a matter of fact, our Elders do not count the contribution, let alone tally who gave what. Our Elders primary role is to teach and shepherd. We have deacons for the rest.

All this said Mike, and I still don't get your point about writing a check to ones local congregation. Sorry if I'm a tad slow, but perhaps you could explain if you have an issue with checks.

Grace and Peace.

Jeff

 

[Imagican]

I have heard it said that a GOOD GIVER is an INSPIRATION. What I would like for someone to DO is explain THAT to ME.

If what we DO is to BE for the GLORY of God, then what we DO is IRRELEVANT so far as WE are concerned.

When Christ PURPOSELY stated that; "when one gives, they are NOT EVEN to let the left hand KNOW what the right hand is DOING'', it was STATED for a purpose. TO KEEP us from erring in our REASON for giving, this statment was offered. But it is NOT JUST a statement. It is COMMANDMENT of Christ.

Now, if I WRITE YOU A CHECK, it has my NAME on it. It has the AMOUNT that '''''''''I''''''' gave. This is in UTTER contradiction to the commandment of Christ AS OFFERED. NO, checks didn't exist at the time the statement was made, but He had little excuses for LAZINESS then EITHER. For Paul offers that a man UNWILLING TO WORK is not WORTHY to EAT.

It was stated earlier that when the 'woman gave the 'half penny' that it was CLEAR to EVERYONE exactly WHAT she was giving. I do NOT agree with this. When it comes to God or His Son, MUCH was manifest FOR their Glory that would NOT have EXISTED if NOT for the LESSON that was meant to be imparted THROUGH the EVENT.

When Moses led his people away from Egypt, the miracles were FOR A PURPOSE. They do not nor DID THEY 'happen as EVERYDAY events. They were ONE TIME events that happened ONCE for ONE PURPOSE.
And we HAVE the record of these events FOR that PURPOSE. Not to LOOK for these events to 'take place today', but to SHOW the power of God to them that are 'faithful'.

So, I doubt that under NORMAL circumstances that there were people 'standing around snooping' into others business when it came to GIVING. There was a box or some such container that sat IN the temple and I am QUITE sure that the giving was MEANT to BE a bit of an anonymous event. Since it is NOT up to MEN to judge what OTHERS give or NOT, then we come to understand that it's a matter of business of the individual AND God.

Stove, let me ask you this:

When Paul wrote HOW women were to dress and behave, has this CHANGED in ANY WAY? I don't mean HOW WE have come to view it, but have the INTENTIONS of the writtings of Paul concerning the issue CHANGED. Was he simply offering a guideline according to culture, OR, was he offering truth as revealed by GOD through The Spirit?

Answer this and you will BEGIN to SEE my point. One way or the other, you can RUN, but you CANNOT HIDE.

Blessings,

MEC