Bible Study How Do I Know It's the Holy Spirit?

[Tenchi]

1 Corinthians 6:19-20
19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy
Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?
20 For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.

​

A few years ago now, I was talking with a young man who "wanted something real with God"; he wanted a radical, never-be-the-same-again encounter with the Almighty but was stymied in his pursuit of such an experience because he didn't know how to distinguish a genuine experience of God from a counterfeit of the same. He challenged me to explain to him what the difference was between a true God-encounter and a fake one. I'd not had to do this before so precisely and concretely but was confident I could find what the young fellow was looking for in God's word, if I made a search for it. The following is what I discovered.

The word of God says the Holy Spirit has a "ministry," a work, that he performs in every child of God under certain circumstances. That work is constituted of:

- Conviction. (John 16:8; Revelation 2-3)
- Illumination of God's truth. (John 14:26; John 16:13; 1 Corinthians 2:10-16)
- Strengthening in times of temptation and trial. (Philippians 2:13; 4:13; Ephesians 3:16; 6:10; Romans 8:13, Galatians 5:16, etc.)
- Comfort in seasons of pain and sorrow. (2 Corinthians 1:3-4)
- Transformation of the child of God. (Galatians 5:22-23; 2 Corinthians 3:17-18; 2 Corinthians 4:7-11; Romans 8:29, etc.)

These are the things God's word says the Holy Spirit will do commonly, even daily, in the life of every believer which cannot be readily counterfeited. He works in the ways described above, however, only in the life of the believer who has agreed - and continues to agree - to his doing so. This is done by the believer's submission to the will and way, to the control of, the Holy Spirit throughout each day.

Romans 6:13
13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.

Romans 8:14
14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

Romans 12:1
1 Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.

James 4:6-7
6 ..."God is opposed to the proud, but gives grace to the humble."
7 Submit therefore to God...

James 4:10
10 Humble yourselves in the presence of the Lord, and He will exalt you.

1 Peter 5:6
6 Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you at the proper time,

God will not force Himself on His children; He will not compel His own to be transformed by Him; He's a gentleman, wanting with His own a love-relationship (Matthew 22:36-38; 1 Corinthians 13:1-3; 1 John 4:16-19). And so, the Holy Spirit waits on the conscious, explicit, yielding of the believer to himself before he acts in the ways described above. The sole exception to this is, of course, his convicting work, which he enacts upon the World, upon sinner and saved, alike.

How was the young man I mentioned above to be sure that he was being convicted by the Holy Spirit? What distinguishes the Holy Spirit's conviction of a person from, say, a mere pang of conscience that any atheist, or Buddhist, or Muslim might feel? The chief distinguishing feature of the Spirit's conviction is the direction in which it moves the one he's convicting. Pangs of a trampled conscience manifest in shame, and guiltiness, and a desire to hide, which can be seen demonstrated very well in the response of Adam and Eve to their sin against their Maker in Eden. In response to their disobedience, Adam and Eve's freshly awakened consciences prompted them to obscure themselves, to hide their nakedness from each other and to hide themselves from God. Fear and shame characterized their pangs of conscience, moving them away from God into concealment and guiltiness.

The Holy Spirit's "work" isn't to divorce the sinner from God, to move them into shame and isolation, but to reconcile the sinner to God. When he convicts a Christian, it is always for the purpose, not of condemnation (Romans 8:1), but of reuniting the sinner to their holy God. The Holy Spirit is called the Spirit of Christ in Romans 8:9. It is in the Person of the Holy Spirit that the Person of Christ, his saving work on the cross, and his life and power, too, is extended to the lost person. So, then, when we read in Scripture of Christ's reconciliation of the lost person to God, we ought to understand that this is done through the Person of the Holy Spirit.

Titus 3:5-6
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,

John 14:16-17
16 "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;
17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

Romans 8:9-11
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

And so, the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ, is always a Reconciler of people to God, in his conviction of them moving them toward God, never away.

Colossians 1:21-22
21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—

2 Corinthians 5:18-19
18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,
19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Romans 5:10
10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

The Holy Spirit's conviction of a person may work in tandem with their pangs of conscience (if their conscience is not too damaged), but is distinct from the effect of a violated conscience in its urging of the sinner to be reconciled to God. He also concentrates in his conviction of a sinner upon the fact that their immoral action is a SIN, an act of rebellion toward God, not just a moral failing, a simple "slip up," as an atheist might characterize their violation of their conscience. The Spirit, if he is at work, emphasizes that one's sin is against God, not merely contrary to some personal, human code of ethics or morality.

In his convicting work, the Holy Spirit will encourage a desire for righteousness; that is, to be in right-standing with God, blameless and holy according to His standard. The Holy Spirit will not be content for one in whom He dwells merely to be nice, or kind, or tolerant and accepting, as any non-believer might wish to be; he will press the born-again believer to "be holy as God is holy" (1 Peter 1:15-16) which is a goal very different from that of just being a "good person" according to human standards.

Finally, the convicting work of the Holy Spirit is distinguished as such by his imparting a sense of divine judgment to the wicked. When the Spirit is at work, he will impress on the sinner the knowledge that they will not "get away with it," that there is inescapable, divine judgment that responds to their sin, that penetrates to regions of their life inaccessible to a human judge or court and for which an unavoidable accounting must be made.

In these respects, then, the convicting work of the Spirit can be distinguished from what the non-believer experiences within themselves when they do violence to their conscience, or fail to meet the moral expectations of society.

Illumination - continued below.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

A few years ago now, I was talking with a young man who "wanted something real with God"; he wanted a radical, never-be-the-same-again encounter with the Almighty but was stymied in his pursuit of such an experience because he didn't know how to distinguish a genuine experience of God from a counterfeit of the same. He challenged me to explain to him what the difference was between a true God-encounter and a fake one. I'd not had to do this before so precisely and concretely but was confident I could find what the young fellow was looking for in God's word, if I made a search for it. The following is what I discovered.

Romans 8:14
14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” (Ro 8:14–15)​

As Romans 8:14-15 says, when a person receives the Spirit of God into his heart, that person becomes a child of God. From that point forward, the Spirit of God leads that person around from inside his heart. Everyone who is led around by the Spirit of God is His child, and everyone else is not His child.

I do not know of any Bible verses that say it is hard for a person in whom Christ lives to understand God when He leads them. The closest thing is the "dull of hearing" comment in Hebrews 5:11 which may concern not walking as God leads instead of not being able to understand what He says.

So if someone asked me how they may have a life-changing interraction with God, I would start by asking them if they are being led around by the Spirit of God. If they said, "Yes", then I would say, "Follow Him where He leads". If they say, "How do I know it's Him", I would return to the first question and say, "I thought you said you are being led around by Him." Then we could have a conversation about the genuinness of their salvation.

 

[hawkman]

A few years ago now, I was talking with a young man who "wanted something real with God"; he wanted a radical, never-be-the-same-again encounter with the Almighty but was stymied in his pursuit of such an experience because he didn't know how to distinguish a genuine experience of God from a counterfeit of the same.

The young man in this is a Christian , right ? Even a lost person could ask for these things , though not likely to receive .

 

[Tenchi]

As Romans 8:14-15 says, when a person receives the Spirit of God into his heart, that person becomes a child of God. From that point forward, the Spirit of God leads that person around from inside his heart.

Unfortunately, this isn't the case. Read 1 Corinthians 3:1-3, or chapters 2 and 3 of the apostle John's Revelation, or Romans 7:15-24, or 1 John 1:8, and so on. Ideally, the born-again person is led by the Spirit, but often, for various reasons, this isn't what happens.

Everyone who is led around by the Spirit of God is His child, and everyone else is not His child.

Well, in each of the Bible references I gave you above, Christians are not being led of the Spirit and yet they are clearly identified as Christians, nonetheless.

I do not know of any Bible verses that say it is hard for a person in whom Christ lives to understand God when He leads them.

Why, then, does the New Testament exist? Why are the various letters of the apostles to fellow Christians - people in whom the Holy Spirit dwells - full of instruction, discipline, rebuke and correction? If it was always crystal clear to every genuine Christian what the Spirit wanted, none of them would need another Christian to write such things to them, directing them in their thinking and conduct, rebuking their sin, and putting their communities in order.

The closest thing is the "dull of hearing" comment in Hebrews 5:11 which may concern not walking as God leads instead of not being able to understand what He says.

The Bible speaks of believers grieving and quenching the Spirit's "voice" in their minds and hearts. In such a condition, situations like the one in the church at Corinth or Sardis, or Laodicea develop because believers can't discern (i.e. "hear) the Holy Spirit's leading.

So if someone asked me how they may have a life-changing interraction with God, I would start by asking them if they are being led around by the Spirit of God. If they said, "Yes", then I would say, "Follow Him where He leads". If they say, "How do I know it's Him", I would return to the first question and say, "I thought you said you are being led around by Him." Then we could have a conversation about the genuinness of their salvation.

And if the Christian person is like the young man I described? What, then? Your circle of argument won't work, I'm afraid. If you asked him if he was being led by the Spirit, he would say he wasn't sure what that leading actually was nor how to distinguish it from mere human inner self-talk and/or demonic deception. And if you said, "Well, then you aren't saved," he would point you to the New Testament in the way that I have and show you that your conclusion that he is not saved doesn't follow necessarily from his uncertainty.

 

[Tenchi]

The young man in this is a Christian , right ?

Yes.

 

[tdidymas]

1 Corinthians 6:19-20
19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy
Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?
20 For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.

​

A few years ago now, I was talking with a young man who "wanted something real with God"; he wanted a radical, never-be-the-same-again encounter with the Almighty but was stymied in his pursuit of such an experience because he didn't know how to distinguish a genuine experience of God from a counterfeit of the same. He challenged me to explain to him what the difference was between a true God-encounter and a fake one. I'd not had to do this before so precisely and concretely but was confident I could find what the young fellow was looking for in God's word, if I made a search for it. The following is what I discovered. ... [truncated]

This is a good teaching, but something is missing for me. What about the person who actually follows what they know, not violating conscience, and yet is not satisfied with their current spiritual walk? A desire for mystical encounters with God can lead people astray, and have in the past - we know this from church history and cult history. So what is missing is that the Holy Spirit leads people to know God's word and how to apply it in their life situations. This requires effort from the Christian to pursue knowledge and spiritual maturity, which is part of being led by the Spirit.

However, "those who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God" is a statement from Paul when he is arguing for the gospel, telling people the difference between one born of God and one not born of God, which is the same argument in different words in 1 Cor. 2, and the same in different words in 1 John. IOW, when a person hears the gospel and has hope in being reconciled to God (forgiven and to be made holy, and surrenders to Christ), that person has had a genuine encounter with God, and has been led (and is being led) by the Holy Spirit.

When Jesus says "follow Me," it applies to every Christian. It means paying attention to all of scripture, especially that which involves the development of moral character. It means paying attention to the words of Christ and applying them to every aspect of one's life. So it begs the question, is he doing this? If so, then "they that wait upon the Lord..." means to wait for God to initiate the encounter desired, "if it be God's will." God knows us better than we know ourselves, and He knows how to deal with each one. It takes trusting God and having a long term vision for one's life.

My point is that feelings of dissatisfaction can be as false as false guilt, a strategy from the devil. Like a small child who wants to grow up in one day, many Christians want to take short cuts to maturity. When they hear about some life-changing experiences that others have, they start to desire the same, thinking that they will be catapulted to some supernatural state of mind, as if that will solve whatever problems they think they have in relationship with God.

But when a person simply humbles himself before God, making himself available for God's use, they may be pleasantly surprised when God actually uses them when they aren't looking for it. An example is Elisha who was doing some big time plowing when Elijah came along saying "follow me." He saw the opportunity to become a prophet when it was presented to him, just as today the Christian sees opportunities to serve others when situations are presented to them. Such are genuine encounters with God, and should not be downplayed.

 

[Tenchi]

A desire for mystical encounters with God can lead people astray...

Absolutely. This was the young man's concern; that he would pursue God for a "special encounter" and find himself led astray instead. And so, he wanted to be able to discern well, on a concrete, objective basis, if he had actually encountered God or not.

So what is missing is that the Holy Spirit leads people to know God's word and how to apply it in their life situations. This requires effort from the Christian to pursue knowledge and spiritual maturity, which is part of being led by the Spirit.

Right. Generally, there is no discerning the leading of the Spirit while maintaining profound ignorance of God's word.

John 14:26
26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

As a Christian some 2000 years removed from the events of the Gospels, where do I find the things that Jesus said to his disciples? In the New Testament. But, inasmuch as Jesus is God, and God is the Ultimate Author of all of the Bible, Jesus's words are found in all of Scripture. I must, then, have a thorough knowledge of all of Scripture, if I expect the Holy Spirit to "bring to remembrance" all that Jesus has said.

It's been my experience that the very worst abusers of Scripture, are those either who have a very piece-meal, prooftext-only grasp of Scripture, or who have almost no knowledge of it at all. These tend toward a hyper-sensual "spirituality," chasing constantly after physical and emotional stimulation, straining daily to "hear" the Spirit "speaking" in a "still, small voice" new truths, and prophecies, and commands. Their lives are, in my experience anyway, plagued with secret (and very fleshly) sin, contentiousness, fear, doubt and deep confusion about basic Christian doctrine and the nature of God.

Where does a proper "hunger" for God's word come from, though? Is it just a matter of self-discipline, of just making oneself study the Bible whether it is a joy to do so or not? Or is feeding deeply and joyfully on God's truth the by-product of a powerful desire to know Him more and more? If it is the latter, how is such a desire obtained? I think the answer is found in the following:

Jeremiah 15:16
16 Your words were found and I ate them, And Your words became for me a joy and the delight of my heart; For I have been called by Your name, O LORD God of hosts.

1 Corinthians 13:1-3
1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Romans 5:5
5 ...God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

Galatians 5:22
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love...

Matthew 22:36-38
36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?”
37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.
38 This is the great and first commandment.

However, "those who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God" is a statement from Paul when he is arguing for the gospel, telling people the difference between one born of God and one not born of God,

I think you're right that Paul is drawing a general distinction between saved (Spirit-minded) and lost (flesh-minded) folk in Romans 8:1-14, but I think his words encompass carnal, infants-in-Christ believers, too (see: 1 Corinthians 3:1-3). He is, after all, delineating the flesh-minded person from the Spirit-minded person in answer to the battle within himself he described in Romans 7:15-24.

Paul also referred to being "led of the Spirit" in his remarks to the believers in Galatia, again noting the war between flesh and Spirit that kept Galatian believers from "doing the things that you want to do" (Galatians 5:17-18). So, yes, being "led of the Spirit" is definitely a mark of a genuine salvation, but it is not a necessary mark of it. Believers may, like the ones in Rome and the province of Galatia, be saved but struggling with fleshliness:

Galatians 3:1-3
1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified.
2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

When Jesus says "follow Me," it applies to every Christian. It means paying attention to all of scripture, especially that which involves the development of moral character.

Right. Agreed. But I would add that a moral life is not an end in itself, but merely the means whereby a born-again child of God enters into direct, personal, joyful, life-changing fellowship with God.

If so, then "they that wait upon the Lord..." means to wait for God to initiate the encounter desired, "if it be God's will."

Well, as my discussion went along with the young guy, and I showed him from God's word what he could expect the Holy Spirit to do in his life commonly, and how to distinguish the Spirit's work for what it was, he realized he didn't need a "special encounter" with God, only to recognize and live in the normal daily experience of God that all Christians can enjoy as they "walk in/by the Spirit" (Galatians 5:16, 25).

God knows us better than we know ourselves, and He knows how to deal with each one.

Amen!

My point is that feelings of dissatisfaction can be as false as false guilt, a strategy from the devil. Like a small child who wants to grow up in one day, many Christians want to take short cuts to maturity. When they hear about some life-changing experiences that others have, they start to desire the same, thinking that they will be catapulted to some supernatural state of mind, as if that will solve whatever problems they think they have in relationship with God.

Very often, yes. And, sadly, more "mature" leaders actually urge the more immature spiritually to pursue "special encounters" with God as a mark of their spiritual seriousness. They tell the spiritually immature to enter their prayer closet and "pound on the doors of heaven" for a special "dispensation of God's power," refusing to leave the closet 'til they obtain that power; or these immature believers ought to rove the local forest, crying out to God at the top of their lungs, for a "greater portion" of supernatural grace (i.e power) so that they can serve Him better, doing so for as long as it takes - many days, if necessary; some are even directed by "spiritual leaders" to find the grave of a "great saint of God" and lie on it, sucking up any residual "spiritual power" remaining in the buried corpse. And so on. All of this nonsense comes as a consequence, I believe, of a general ignorance among Christians today of "life in the Spirit," though it is plainly described in the New Testament.

But when a person simply humbles himself before God, making himself available for God's use, they may be pleasantly surprised when God actually uses them when they aren't looking for it.

I've yet to meet a believer who did this who didn't have a story of God's unexpected activity in their life.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Unfortunately, this isn't the case. Read 1 Corinthians 3:1-3, or chapters 2 and 3 of the apostle John's Revelation, or Romans 7:15-24, or 1 John 1:8, and so on. Ideally, the born-again person is led by the Spirit, but often, for various reasons, this isn't what happens.

Well, in each of the Bible references I gave you above, Christians are not being led of the Spirit and yet they are clearly identified as Christians, nonetheless.

I think you are referring to Christians not following God's leadership.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. (Ro 8:14)​

​

"Are led" is passive in Romans 8:14, meaning that the subjects (God's children) are being acted upon by God. God leads His children, and His children are led by Him. That is what this verse says. And it's not just words on a page. It points to a reality. Today, at this very moment, God is leading around His children. How can you say this is not true?

The only plausible explanation is that you are talking about people not following. I will not argue with you that many of His children do not follow Him, some of which may be illigitimate and not sons (Heb 12:8).

Why, then, does the New Testament exist? Why are the various letters of the apostles to fellow Christians - people in whom the Holy Spirit dwells - full of instruction, discipline, rebuke and correction? If it was always crystal clear to every genuine Christian what the Spirit wanted, none of them would need another Christian to write such things to them, directing them in their thinking and conduct, rebuking their sin, and putting their communities in order.

The fact that some Christians do not listen to God and walk as He leads is not evidence that He does not lead all His children. Neither does the fact that God inspires people who listen to correct those who don't.

The Bible speaks of believers grieving and quenching the Spirit's "voice" in their minds and hearts. In such a condition, situations like the one in the church at Corinth or Sardis, or Laodicea develop because believers can't discern (i.e. "hear) the Holy Spirit's leading.

So now we find agreement, sort of. God leads His children. That is a fact. Some people grieve the Spirit or quench the Spirit. But that does not indicate they don't hear the Spirit or that they don't understand what the Spirit is telling them. It just means they are stiff-arming Him.

Let's take an undisputed ministry of the Spirit (conviction of sin) as an example. Here is what Hebrews 12 says about it...

5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:​

​

“My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD,​

Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;​

6 For whom the LORD loves He chastens,​

And scourges every son whom He receives.”​

​

7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. 11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. (Heb 12:5–11)​

Notice that it says 1) God chastens all His children, and those without chastening are not really His children, 2) His children should embrace His correction and not scoff at it, 3) His chastening is not joyful but painful, and 4) those who are trained by His chastening experience the peaceable fruit of righteousness. None of this, of course, would be possible if His children can not comprehend His correction.

And if the Christian person is like the young man I described? What, then? Your circle of argument won't work, I'm afraid. If you asked him if he was being led by the Spirit, he would say he wasn't sure what that leading actually was nor how to distinguish it from mere human inner self-talk and/or demonic deception. And if you said, "Well, then you aren't saved," he would point you to the New Testament in the way that I have and show you that your conclusion that he is not saved doesn't follow necessarily from his uncertainty.

It's not a circular argument, it is linear. If a person does not know that the Spirit of God is leading him around, it does not necessarily mean he is lost. It might just mean he is confused (probably due to false doctrine clouding his understanding). But if the Spirit of God is not leading him around, he is not saved. The conversation needs to focus first on the geuinness of his salvation, then on the causes for his confusion.

 

[Tenchi]

John 16:13-15
13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you
into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own
authority, but whatever he hears he will speak,
and he will declare to you the things that are to come.
14 He will glorify me, for he will
take what is mine and declare it to you.
15 All that the Father has is mine; therefore I
said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.

​

Illumination by the Holy Spirit.

I've known atheists and Muslims who've pored over the Bible, learning its contents far better than the average Christian has, memorizing copious amounts of Scripture, not so they know God better, not because the Spirit has prompted them to do so, but because they want to humiliate ignorant Christians and destroy their faith. How does their study of God's word differ from the illumination of God's word by the Holy Spirit that the born-again person enjoys as they study and memorize Scripture? Is there any difference, really?

The Bible says that the born-again believer, in the Person of the Holy Spirit, possesses the "mind of Christ" and, as a result, will understand the "mysteries" of God's word that are entirely opaque to the spiritually-unregenerate person.

1 Corinthians 2:10-16
10 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God.
11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God.
13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.
14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
15 The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one.
16 “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

Just as I cannot know fully the secret, inner workings of the next person's mind and heart, I cannot fully know the secret, inner workings of God's mind and heart, either. The Spirit who dwells within me, though, in essential nature being God, possesses such knowledge (vs. 10) and, to the degree that I can grasp it, as I walk in daily submission to him, will illuminate my mind to "the things freely given us by God" (vs. 12).

What does this illumination by the Spirit look like, exactly? How does it differ from mere academic study of the Bible that any atheist, or anti-Christian Muslim apologist, might do? The apostle Peter offers some help here:

2 Peter 1:3-4
3 His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence,
4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire.

The Christian whose mind and heart is being illuminated to God's truth by the Spirit will not simply accumulate knowledge, but be transformed by what the Spirit reveals to a very particular end: "That you may become partakers of the divine nature." What is Peter talking about? The apostle Paul provides explanation:

Romans 8:29
29 For those whom God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

The Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ, the one who, in himself, imparts to us the "mind of Christ," does so to the end that we might be "conformed to the image of Christ." This is what fundamentally distinguishes the Spirit's illumination of the believer's mind and heart to God's truth from the mere academic accumulation of biblical knowledge. No atheist or Muslim studying God's word will enjoy this Spirit-enabled product of their efforts.

So, how about you? Are you being constantly changed by the Spirit's illumination of Scripture, more and more conformed to the image of Christ as you expand your knowledge of God's word, his life increasingly manifested in your life? Or, are you essentially the same person you've always been, though you've obtained a vast pool of knowledge of Scripture?

2 Corinthians 4:5-11
5 For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake.
6 For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
7 But we have this treasure in jars of clay, to show that the surpassing power belongs to God and not to us.
8 We are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not driven to despair;
9 persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed;
10 always carrying in the body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be manifested in our bodies.
11 For we who live are always being given over to death for Jesus’ sake, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh.

 

[Tenchi]

I think you are referring to Christians not following God's leadership.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. (Ro 8:14)"Are led" is passive in Romans 8:14, meaning that the subjects (God's children) are being acted upon by God. God leads His children, and His children are led by Him. That is what this verse says. And it's not just words on a page. It points to a reality. Today, at this very moment, God is leading around His children. How can you say this is not true?

I don't believe that God's word ever describes a situation in Christian living where God, the Spirit, imposes his leading on children of God. And God's word gives me good cause to think that the Spirit's leading can be smothered - "quenched" - by rebellion and sin in the life of a born-again person. It is certainly the natural condition of things for a Christian to be led by the Spirit. In what other relational dynamic can one be with God? But being led by the Spirit is not the common condition of the majority of Christians today. Instead, many modern Christians are like the believers at Corinth, or Galatia, Ephesus, Sardis or Laodicea.

The fact that some Christians do not listen to God and walk as He leads is not evidence that He does not lead all His children.

??? I don't know how this remark doesn't strike you as obviously self-contradictory. If a wilderness guide is leading a group of hikers through a forest and the group decides at a certain fork in the trail not to follow his lead, is he leading them? If they all go one way while he insists they go the other, is he leading them? I don't see how it makes any sense to say he is, but this is what you appear to be saying about the Spirit's leading in your statement above. If Christians don't listen to God's leading - which is to say, they don't follow His leading - how can you say that He leads all of His children? Was He leading the carnal, infant-in-Christ Corinthian believers into their fractious, partisan behavior? I'm sure you'd say not. This would mean, though, that in their carnal state, the Spirit was not leading the "in Christ" believers at Corinth and so I can say that the Spirit doesn't lead all of God's children.

So now we find agreement, sort of. God leads His children. That is a fact.

If they let Him, yes. But many don't. So He doesn't lead all of His children.

But that does not indicate they don't hear the Spirit or that they don't understand what the Spirit is telling them. It just means they are stiff-arming Him.

Right. And so long as they do so, the Spirit isn't leading them.

Notice that it says 1) God chastens all His children, and those without chastening are not really His children, 2) His children should embrace His correction and not scoff at it, 3) His chastening is not joyful but painful, and 4) those who are trained by His chastening experience the peaceable fruit of righteousness. None of this, of course, would be possible if His children can not comprehend His correction.

Well, I don't think this is borne out by Scripture. For example, Paul had to explain to the Corinthian Christians that as a result of their sinful partaking of the Lord's Supper some of their number had died (1 Corinthians 11:27-31). If it had been obvious to them that this was the case, Paul would not have needed to remark on it. How often did Paul, James and Peter issue criticism and instruction to fellow believers, explaining to them spiritual things that they quite evidently had not discerned for themselves? Very often! Peter even mentioned that it was not easy to understand some of the things Paul taught, admitting to the fact that comprehension of spiritual truth, which is fundamentally the work of the Spirit (John 16:13), was not easy and immediate.

2 Peter 3:15-16
15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,
16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.

It's not a circular argument, it is linear. If a person does not know that the Spirit of God is leading him around, it does not necessarily mean he is lost. It might just mean he is confused (probably due to false doctrine clouding his understanding). But if the Spirit of God is not leading him around, he is not saved.

I've already pointed out that it doesn't follow from the fact that a person is not being led of the Spirit that they are, therefore, not saved - unless you subscribe to some sort of theological determinism where, good or evil, a person's every action is ordained of God - which I don't, and which the Bible does not teach, either. As I've already shown, we have plain scriptural examples of believers not being led of the Spirit but by their fleshly "old Self" instead. I still can't figure out from what you've written, how, in this circumstance, the Spirit is nonetheless leading the born-again believer. The distinction between not following the leading of the Spirit and not being led of the Spirit seems a distinction without a difference. I might say the Spirit is always working in some way upon the born-again person, but not always leading them.

The young man I wrote of in the OP knew what the will and way of God was since he had a good knowledge of Scripture; and he obeyed this knowledge because he was convinced that the Bible was God's special revelation of Himself and His truth. The young man's obedience, however, was a matter of reason, he thought, not the consequence of the Spirit at work in him. If he was mistaken and his obedience was the effect of the Spirit's acting upon him, the young man wanted to know how - if possible - to distinguish this as such. It seemed to him his own rationality (albeit God-given) had brought him to his Christian manner of living, not any supernatural work of God. Was there something concrete and distinctive marking the Spirit's involvement in his obedience to Scripture, he wondered? Or did he just have to assume there was?

 

[tdidymas]

It seems to me that a controversy is happening about the phrase "led by the Spirit." There are 2 kinds of leading:

1. Conscious, conscientious understanding of what God is saying to an individual - this is a kind of leading which is a personal application of general theology about the nature of relationship between God and man. In this case, the Spirit can definitely impose His will on the individual, for example by means of circumstance, which could be described in Acts 16:6-7, "Next Paul and Silas traveled through the area of Phrygia and Galatia, because the Holy Spirit had prevented them from preaching the word in the province of Asia at that time. Then coming to the borders of Mysia, they headed north for the province of Bithynia, but again the Spirit of Jesus did not allow them to go there."

2. Unconscious spiritual knowledge as a result of hearing the gospel and God revealing Himself by the Spirit's convicting power - this is always an imposition from God pressing on an individual, as described in Eph. 2:5. This kind of leading is what Paul is talking about in Rom. 8:14 "all who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God," since anyone who believes the gospel is already made a child of God - 1 Jn. 5:1 "Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God." When this happens, the individual fears God and begins to obey with conscious faith. This becomes clear when read in context of Rom. 8, where Paul is contrasting a believer and an unbeliever, as in v. 13.

So, if an individual has believed the gospel, and has not matured enough for full repentance (still has sin in their life), they still have been led by the Spirit to believe, and were born again. Further leading may be by the Spirit imposing tribulation as a form of chastisement, to force sanctification on the individual, so that they may "share in His holiness." (Heb. 12). Jesus said "My sheep hear My voice, and they follow Me," therefore a true believer has already been led, and will continue to be led by the Spirit. Some sinfulness or immaturity does not negate a person being led by the Spirit, even though it obviously hinders them from being the best witness for Christ they can be.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

I don't believe that God's word ever describes a situation in Christian living where God, the Spirit, imposes his leading on children of God. And God's word gives me good cause to think that the Spirit's leading can be smothered - "quenched" - by rebellion and sin in the life of a born-again person. It is certainly the natural condition of things for a Christian to be led by the Spirit. In what other relational dynamic can one be with God? But being led by the Spirit is not the common condition of the majority of Christians today. Instead, many modern Christians are like the believers at Corinth, or Galatia, Ephesus, Sardis or Laodicea.

??? I don't know how this remark doesn't strike you as obviously self-contradictory. If a wilderness guide is leading a group of hikers through a forest and the group decides at a certain fork in the trail not to follow his lead, is he leading them? If they all go one way while he insists they go the other, is he leading them? I don't see how it makes any sense to say he is, but this is what you appear to be saying about the Spirit's leading in your statement above. If Christians don't listen to God's leading - which is to say, they don't follow His leading - how can you say that He leads all of His children? Was He leading the carnal, infant-in-Christ Corinthian believers into their fractious, partisan behavior? I'm sure you'd say not. This would mean, though, that in their carnal state, the Spirit was not leading the "in Christ" believers at Corinth and so I can say that the Spirit doesn't lead all of God's children.

If they let Him, yes. But many don't. So He doesn't lead all of His children.

Right. And so long as they do so, the Spirit isn't leading them.

Well, I don't think this is borne out by Scripture. For example, Paul had to explain to the Corinthian Christians that as a result of their sinful partaking of the Lord's Supper some of their number had died (1 Corinthians 11:27-31). If it had been obvious to them that this was the case, Paul would not have needed to remark on it. How often did Paul, James and Peter issue criticism and instruction to fellow believers, explaining to them spiritual things that they quite evidently had not discerned for themselves? Very often! Peter even mentioned that it was not easy to understand some of the things Paul taught, admitting to the fact that comprehension of spiritual truth, which is fundamentally the work of the Spirit (John 16:13), was not easy and immediate.

2 Peter 3:15-16
15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,
16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.

I've already pointed out that it doesn't follow from the fact that a person is not being led of the Spirit that they are, therefore, not saved - unless you subscribe to some sort of theological determinism where, good or evil, a person's every action is ordained of God - which I don't, and which the Bible does not teach, either. As I've already shown, we have plain scriptural examples of believers not being led of the Spirit but by their fleshly "old Self" instead. I still can't figure out from what you've written, how, in this circumstance, the Spirit is nonetheless leading the born-again believer. The distinction between not following the leading of the Spirit and not being led of the Spirit seems a distinction without a difference. I might say the Spirit is always working in some way upon the born-again person, but not always leading them.

The young man I wrote of in the OP knew what the will and way of God was since he had a good knowledge of Scripture; and he obeyed this knowledge because he was convinced that the Bible was God's special revelation of Himself and His truth. The young man's obedience, however, was a matter of reason, he thought, not the consequence of the Spirit at work in him. If he was mistaken and his obedience was the effect of the Spirit's acting upon him, the young man wanted to know how - if possible - to distinguish this as such. It seemed to him his own rationality (albeit God-given) had brought him to his Christian manner of living, not any supernatural work of God. Was there something concrete and distinctive marking the Spirit's involvement in his obedience to Scripture, he wondered? Or did he just have to assume there was?

ὅσοι

γὰρ

πνεύματι

θεοῦ

ἄγονται,

οὗτοι

υἱοὶ

θεοῦ

εἰσιν

.

As many as

for

in spirit

of God

are led

these

sons

of God

are

RK-NPM

CAZ

NDSN

NGSM

VPPI3P

RD-NPM

NNPM

NGSM

VPAI3P

Aland, K., Black, M., Martini, C. M., Metzger, B. M., Robinson, M. A., & Wikgren, A. (1993). The Greek New Testament, Fourth Revised Edition (Interlinear with Morphology) (Ro 8:14). Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft.

So, in short, your contention is that "are led", which is a passive verb in this sentence is really an active verb, so that the verse really says that only those who walk as God leads are really His children. As a result, we do not see in this verse God's leadership in a person's life as evidence that a person is saved. Rather, we see a person's submission to God as leader as evidence that they are saved. Is that what you're saying?

But if it is what you're saying, how can the young man in your story be considered saved? He can't be walking as God leads if he can't discern what God wants him to think/do.

So please succinctly describe what evidence Romans 8:14 is citing as evidence of salvation.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

It seems to me that a controversy is happening about the phrase "led by the Spirit." There are 2 kinds of leading:

1. Conscious, conscientious understanding of what God is saying to an individual - this is a kind of leading which is a personal application of general theology about the nature of relationship between God and man. In this case, the Spirit can definitely impose His will on the individual, for example by means of circumstance, which could be described in Acts 16:6-7, "Next Paul and Silas traveled through the area of Phrygia and Galatia, because the Holy Spirit had prevented them from preaching the word in the province of Asia at that time. Then coming to the borders of Mysia, they headed north for the province of Bithynia, but again the Spirit of Jesus did not allow them to go there."

2. Unconscious spiritual knowledge as a result of hearing the gospel and God revealing Himself by the Spirit's convicting power - this is always an imposition from God pressing on an individual, as described in Eph. 2:5. This kind of leading is what Paul is talking about in Rom. 8:14 "all who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God," since anyone who believes the gospel is already made a child of God - 1 Jn. 5:1 "Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God." When this happens, the individual fears God and begins to obey with conscious faith. This becomes clear when read in context of Rom. 8, where Paul is contrasting a believer and an unbeliever, as in v. 13.

So, if an individual has believed the gospel, and has not matured enough for full repentance (still has sin in their life), they still have been led by the Spirit to believe, and were born again. Further leading may be by the Spirit imposing tribulation as a form of chastisement, to force sanctification on the individual, so that they may "share in His holiness." (Heb. 12). Jesus said "My sheep hear My voice, and they follow Me," therefore a true believer has already been led, and will continue to be led by the Spirit. Some sinfulness or immaturity does not negate a person being led by the Spirit, even though it obviously hinders them from being the best witness for Christ they can be.

Which kind of leading is this:

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Ro 1:18–19)​

 

[tdidymas]

Which kind of leading is this:

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Ro 1:18–19)​

This is talking about unregenerate people, not about Christians. People born again, however immature, irresponsible, and sinful they may appear, are in pursuit of godliness. Heb. 12 says that if a person is unrepentant and is not chastised by God, they are illegitimate - that is, they aren't a real Christian. A true believer cannot continue to suppress the truth in unrighteousness when the truth is presented to them, because the convicting power of the Holy Spirit dwelling in them won't allow it. "No Jesus, no peace; know Jesus, know peace" - says a lot, doesn't it?

Specifically, Rom. 1:18-19 shows a lack of leading by the Spirit, that is, God's wrath remains on those who are led by their feelings only, and reject the truth. So I suppose one might say that this is the kind of leading in which one born of God will submit to, because Paul is talking about the administration of the gospel, and comparing those who reject it versus those who accept it. Rom. 1-3 is an argument for total spiritual depravity, which he calls "under sin." So I would say the leading that is missing but implied in v. 18-19 is the #2 kind. But I'm not trying to split hairs here, I'm merely suggesting that semantics often play in debates.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

This is talking about unregenerate people, not about Christians. People born again, however immature, irresponsible, and sinful they may appear, are in pursuit of godliness. Heb. 12 says that if a person is unrepentant and is not chastised by God, they are illegitimate - that is, they aren't a real Christian. A true believer cannot continue to suppress the truth in unrighteousness when the truth is presented to them, because the convicting power of the Holy Spirit dwelling in them won't allow it. "No Jesus, no peace; know Jesus, know peace" - says a lot, doesn't it?

Specifically, Rom. 1:18-19 shows a lack of leading by the Spirit, that is, God's wrath remains on those who are led by their feelings only, and reject the truth. So I suppose one might say that this is the kind of leading in which one born of God will submit to, because Paul is talking about the administration of the gospel, and comparing those who reject it versus those who accept it. Rom. 1-3 is an argument for total spiritual depravity, which he calls "under sin." So I would say the leading that is missing but implied in v. 18-19 is the #2 kind. But I'm not trying to split hairs here, I'm merely suggesting that semantics often play in debates.

Romans 1:18-19 talks about God personally informing people of "the things that may be known of God". The list of things is not defined specifically, but it indicates that some things about God are unknowable. God reveals to them only the knowable things. Two things on the list are described in verse 20... "His eternal power and Godhead". We cannot say we are excluded from this group of people because Romans 2:1 says that everyone who judges one of them condemns themselves because they practice the same things. And Romans 3:23 gathers us all up in the same boat: "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God".

But none of this indicates we did all these things without full knowledge. On the contrary, it says that since God personally revealed these things to each one of us, not one of us will have an excuse when we are judged by Him (Rom 1:20).

This relationship of God revealing things to us and us responding either positively or negatively is also true about the lifeline that He thows us in Christ. When we hear the gospel (communicated to us first by Him (Jn 6:44-45) and secondarily by those people He sends out to preach(Ro 10:13-15)), we may choose to believe it or we may choose to refuse to believe it. And God has determined to save only those who believe (1 Cor 1:21).

After a person receives Christ into his heart, his "followship" of Christ changes through the creation of a new man that is "truly righteous and holy" (Eph 4:24). The new man loves Jesus and rejoices in Him with inexpressible joy (1 Pet 1:8), delights in the things of God (Ro 7:22), and detests sin (Ro 8:13). But because the old man (the flesh) still exists (Ro 8:10), a Christian must choose to put off the old man (Eph 4:22), put on the new man (Eph 4:24), and walk in lock step with God's Spirit (Ga 5:25). This is the only way a Christian may avoid fulfilling the lusts of the flesh (Ga 5:16-17).

All these things put God's leadership on display and all these things put the onus on us to walk as He leads.

 

[Tenchi]

ὅσοι	γὰρ	πνεύματι	θεοῦ	ἄγονται,	οὗτοι	υἱοὶ	θεοῦ	εἰσιν	.
As many as	for	in spirit	of God	are led	these	sons	of God	are
RK-NPM	CAZ	NDSN	NGSM	VPPI3P	RD-NPM	NNPM	NGSM	VPAI3P

Aland, K., Black, M., Martini, C. M., Metzger, B. M., Robinson, M. A., & Wikgren, A. (1993). The Greek New Testament, Fourth Revised Edition (Interlinear with Morphology) (Ro 8:14). Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft.

Is this supposed to be a sort of "mic-drop" thing, because it appears scholarly? I've seen folks post this sort of academic stuff many times before in other forums in an effort to cow others. I hope this isn't what you're trying to do, because it won't work with me. I have my own interlinear texts, Bible lexicons, verse-parsing software, etc., too, and have been using them for a long time.

So, in short, your contention is that "are led", which is a passive verb in this sentence is really an active verb, so that the verse really says that only those who walk as God leads are really His children.

??? The verse doesn't say ONLY; it says "for as many" which is not synonymous with "only." If/when a born-again person is led by the Holy Spirit, they are so led in a passive manner where the believer follows the direction of the Spirit, "keeping in step" with him, submitting to his will and way, never the other way 'round. It is only born-again believers who do this, never non-believers, as Paul pointed out in Romans 8:14. But what he didn't say in the verse is that only those who are living in submission to the leading of the Spirit are saved. This is your...reworking of his words.

I might say, "As many as are members of the Panthers football team are directed by the team's head coach." In other words, it's in the nature of being a Panthers team member to be directed by the team's head coach. He tells the members what positions they'll occupy, what play strategies they'll employ, and when each member will be on the field of play. The team members, being members, yield to the head coach's will. This is what is normal to being a member of the Panthers football team.

But team member Joe might have a sprained ankle, or his arm in a cast, and so is out of the normal dynamic of being directed by the head coach, just sitting on the bench, watching, instead. Joe would, nonetheless, be a member of the Panthers football team, right? He could even be in bed at home, feeling miserable, coughing and stuffed-up, far from the head coach and receiving no direction from him whatsoever, but Joe would still be a team member. So, then, the statement that "As many as are members of the Panthers football team take direction from the team's head coach" cannot be legitimately reworked to mean ONLY IF a member is taking such direction is he a member of the team. Joe demonstrates that this isn't actually the case.

So, too, Paul's statement about the children of God being led of the Spirit. As many as are so led, are so because they are children of God. But, for various reasons, they may not be led of the Spirit, though they are still "members" of "team Born-Again Christian." They might be spiritually sick from a diet of poor teaching, or from being fed outright false doctrine; they might be spiritually injured by tragedy, or by physical disease and chronic, severe pain; they might be spiritually flattened by attacks from fellow believers, or betrayal by a spouse or close family member; simple spiritual immaturity born of being brand-new to the faith can also hinder living under the Spirit's leadership. For these and other reasons Christians can be "out of commission" for a time, spiritually, not being led of the Spirit but nonetheless genuinely born-again children of God.

It can't be, therefore, that in Romans 8:14, Paul meant to say that ONLY IF a person is led of the Spirit are they a child of God. And he doesn't. With the phrase "are led," he described the passive nature of following, and submitting to, the will and way of the Holy Spirit, but he did NOT write what you do: That being led is necessary to being a child of God. This is no more true for the Christian's membership in God's kingdom and family than it is necessary for Joe's membership on the Panthers football team that he be directed by his head coach.

As a result, we do not see in this verse God's leadership in a person's life as evidence that a person is saved.

No, I'm not saying this. See above. ONLY in the lives of saved people do we see God's leadership; but this doesn't mean that such leadership is necessary to being a saved person.

Rather, we see a person's submission to God as leader as evidence that they are saved. Is that what you're saying?

This is what Paul plainly states in Romans 8:14. He did NOT write, "Only by being led by the Spirit is one a child of God."

But if it is what you're saying, how can the young man in your story be considered saved? He can't be walking as God leads if he can't discern what God wants him to think/do.

This is Begging the Question. You assume here that your re-working of Paul's words is appropriate, and so, ask your question about the young man. But as I've shown, you've added to Paul's words in Romans 8:14, making them say more than they actually do.

I think a big part of the problem here, which I've encountered before in discussions with others, is that what is inevitable (in a life that is as it should be spiritually) is being confused with what is necessary, or essential. It helps to consider the difference by way of analogy: An apple tree, if it is healthy, well-nourished and watered, gets lots of sunlight, and is free of disease or pests, will inevitably produce apples. In general, under such a state-of-affairs, an apple tree will, normally, produce apples.

But not every apple tree produces apples. An apple tree might be afflicted in some, or all, the ways a healthy, fruit-bearing apple tree is not, and so doesn't bear apples. Is the apple tree, therefore, not an apple tree? Is bearing apples merely inevitable, or normal, to being an apple tree? Or is fruit-bearing necessary, or essential, to being an apple tree?

Obviously, the presence or absence of apples on the branches of an apple tree isn't what makes the tree an apple tree. Only if the tree is an apple tree is there any reason to think it would bear apples. So, then, what is inevitable is not therefore necessary in this instance. But when a person MUST be led of the Spirit in order to be saved, when it is necessary for them to be so led, what is only inevitable to a healthy spiritual life (being led of the Spirit) has been made - illegitimately, I think - necessary to it. This is what, it appears to me, you're doing with Romans 8:14: Making necessary what is only inevitable. It is only the born-again person who is capable of being led by the Spirit (which is all that Paul is really saying in Romans 8:14); but it is their born-again status that produces this effect; it is not their being led that produces the effect of a born-again status.

So please succinctly describe what evidence Romans 8:14 is citing as evidence of salvation.

Well, I have been clear and precise, I think, but I've not been very succinct. This is how it goes, though, in threads. We can't really make demands like "Be succinct" to other posters. They're free agents, posting as they like.

Anyway, I've done what you've asked here, above.

 

[hawkman]

Very often, yes. And, sadly, more "mature" leaders actually urge the more immature spiritually to pursue "special encounters" with God as a mark of their spiritual seriousness. They tell the spiritually immature to enter their prayer closet and "pound on the doors of heaven" for a special "dispensation of God's power," refusing to leave the closet 'til they obtain that power; or these immature believers ought to rove the local forest, crying out to God at the top of their lungs, for a "greater portion" of supernatural grace (i.e power) so that they can serve Him better, doing so for as long as it takes - many days, if necessary; some are even directed by "spiritual leaders" to find the grave of a "great saint of God" and lie on it, sucking up any residual "spiritual power" remaining in the buried corpse. And so on. All of this nonsense comes as a consequence, I believe, of a general ignorance among Christians today of "life in the Spirit," though it is plainly described in the New Testament.

Yes , there are people being lead wrongly . Praise God I have not encountered the nonsense you speak of .
None of the mature leaders I have encountered in my many years have urged me to pursue "special encounters " .

Would I say I have had special encounters ? Never really thought about them being special encounters , just power of the Holy Spirit in evidence . So what have I been doing some of the times the power of the Holy Spirit was in evidence in my life ?

I was standing in my living room .

I was siting on my couch .

Walking on the road .

Looking out a window .

Sitting in the hallway of a hospital .

I was sound asleep in my bed .

I was praying in my front yard as I normally do at night .

The power of the Holy Spirit shows up in our normal day to day living if we are a Christian . But you know this to brother Tenchi . When have you seen evidence of the power of The Holy Spirit in your life ?

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

??? The verse doesn't say ONLY; it says "for as many" which is not synonymous with "only." If/when a born-again person is led by the Holy Spirit, they are so led in a passive manner where the believer follows the direction of the Spirit, "keeping in step" with him, submitting to his will and way, never the other way 'round. It is only born-again believers who do this, never non-believers, as Paul pointed out in Romans 8:14. But what he didn't say in the verse is that only those who are living in submission to the leading of the Spirit are saved. This is your...reworking of his words.

You're right. The Greek word "ὅσοι" means "everyone who", but it does not exclude all others. Here is a NT example...

Matt 14:36 and begged Him that they might only touch the hem of His garment. And as many as touched it were made perfectly well.​

Everyone who touched His garment was made well. But others who did not touch His garment could also have been made well.

But in some circumstances it makes sense to translate it "only those who". Here is an example...

Mark 6:11 And whoever will not receive you nor hear you, when you depart from there, shake off the dust under your feet as a testimony against them. Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!”​

​

In this verse it is understood that the disciples were instructed to shake off the dust under their feet as a testimony against "everyone who" and "only those who" reject their message.

When it comes to describing the children of God (i.e., saved people), we have these verses with the Greek word "ὅσοι" that make no sense without adding the concept of "only"...

1. John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
2. Acts 13:48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
3. Rom 6:3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
4. Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
5. Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

It does not make sense 1) to say He gave the right to become children of God to people who did not receive Him or did not believe in His name, 2) to say some who had not been appointed to eternal life believed, 3) to say some who were not baptized into Christ were baptized into His death, 4) to say that some people who are not led by the Spirit of God are children of God, or 5) to say some people who were not baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Why would you be opposed to the idea that only those who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God?

 

[Who Me]

A different take on this request was given by an old puritan:-
" If one wants extraordinary experiences of God, enlarge one's ordinary devotions "


We have no right or ability to expect supernatural experiences from God, 5hey are given by him as he wants and certainly not as thrill, but as means of deepening one's appreciation of God.

 

[Tenchi]

Bump.