How many people have you sent to Hell?

[DarkHorseRising]

Moderators, please don't delete or ban me until you read the whole post. It's not as overly dramatic as the title might suggest, actually.

I just wonder if Believers understand the effect that extra-Biblical judgements and attitudes can have on non-Believers who might be interested in hearing more about the Gospel and possibly looking into Christ's message?

I'm NOT talking about things clearly marked as sinful, such as adultery, pornography, theft, or certain sexual practices of which there is presently a moratorium on mentioning.

I mean things for which there's no real Biblical commandment against them, such as piercings, tattoos, long hair on men, women speaking in the Church, "Goth" fashion, etc. When Christians are outspoken against these issues from a religious perspective (as opposed to personal preference) or call them evil or suggest that "real" Christians don't do that, what do they accomplish?

Imagine a hypothetical young person who has some curiosity about God and enters a church on Sunday morning to attend a worship service. Let's say he has long hair, a few extra piercings, and a black heavy metal T-shirt with jeans. People don't talk to him or welcome him, and if he were to press for answers some would say that his attire, physical appearance, or presumed interests are unacceptable or incompatible with Christianity. He's not going to come back, he's not going to continue learning about God, and guess what awaits him when he dies? Yet the people who treated him as such would be convinced that they were the holy ones, and they were going to Heaven, and not lose any sleep over the fate of the newcomer.

I worry about this so much. I'm sick of my friends refusing to talk about the Bible because they've been told by Christians that they're evil or sinful for things the Bible doesn't condemn.

Is it really worth letting people slide off to Hell, simply to maintain the church's social thermometer at your personal comfort level?

Sorry for the rant, I've been thinking about it a lot lately; I'm not having much success with a certain friend who has been turned away from faith by people as I've described; and maybe if one or two people give this issue a bit of thought, we can get another soul or two into Heaven. Feel free to discuss.

 

[Danus]

....I totally agree with you.

 

[Riniel]

I agree as well.. If I saw someone who looked "different", I would walk over to them and welcome them. Jesus himself ate with the sinners, and it's because you can't be an example to other people living in your little bubble of Christian only friends. You have to get out there, and talk to everyone, and don't preach to them, but just be kind to them. Show them you love them as a fellow brother, or sister in Christ, and have compassion on them. Kindness, and love is the quickest way into a persons heart, to plant the seed that God gives us.

 

[Mike S]

I agree with you, dark horse. How's that for a switch?

We're far too quick to label things un-Christian, when what we really mean is "I don't like that.".

 

[evenifigoalone]

No, I agree.

There was a guy who attended the Bible study I go to one night a few weeks back who said he used to be involved in Satanism. He kept talking about on how we were all so nice to him despite that, and from what he was saying it sounded like other similar places weren't so nice to him.
I was like, wow!

 

[reba]

<DIR>Jud 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
Jud 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
Jud 1:22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:
Jud 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.


We need keep our selfs prayed up verse 20 then we should hopefully find the balance of verses 21-23

</DIR> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Granny says Amen Jethro

 

[Jethro Bodine]

"I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it." (Matthew 16:18 NIV1984)

Even though the failures of Christians can hinder the growth of the church--and we've all made our own contribution to that cause--it is impossible to overcome the church of God. No power, no bondage of Hades can overcome it. How much less, then, mere human beings.

I don't believe for a moment that God will let someone go to hell who would have otherwise believed if they had been given the right set of circumstances to believe. Is God so inadequate, so weak, so insensitive, that he let's mere humans dole out the chances for people to believe and stands idly by while we mess it up? God is zealous for his own cause. We don't have to worry about our failures keeping other people out of the kingdom.

"...they destroy the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his..." (2 Timothy 2:18-19 NIV1984)

But we should be careful to not slow or hinder people's entrance and growth in the kingdom. That we most certainly can do. If the church itself can hinder the church, how much more those who don't believe and lead people astray by their godless example. My guess is the Bible has more to say about that than what damage the church itself does to the kingdom of God.

 

[Pizzaguy]

While I agree with DHR's OP in principle, Jethro gets a big thumbs up from me!

 

[DarkHorseRising]

I don't believe for a moment that God will let someone go to hell who would have otherwise believed if they had been given the right set of circumstances to believe. Is God so inadequate, so weak, so insensitive, that he let's mere humans dole out the chances for people to believe and stands idly by while we mess it up? God is zealous for his own cause. We don't have to worry about our failures keeping other people out of the kingdom.

I tend to agree, but would prefer to play it safe when dealing with other people's eternity. The problem with your argument here is that God doesn't desire ANYone to not believe; yet there are so many who do. This leads us to two possibilities:

1. These people's hearts are hardened; no effort of man can change them. I reject this concept because there have been numerous people who were firm nonbelievers, yet changed through the efforts of Believers.

or,

2. We ultimately have no free will; to ensure that everyone receives the exact opportunity needed to make a choice about following God, all our actions (Believers and non) are under direct Heavenly control. I reject this idea because if it is true, I had no choice but to reject it.

Therefore, I believe that we do have free will, and that there are consequences to our free will (not all of them involving solely ourselves). I'd also point out that I see this differently than mission work towards people who haven't heard the Gospel; rather my post was referring to individuals who were aware of it, and were flirting with the idea of pursuing it.

But yeah, at the end of the day I REALLY don't think we have the right to potentially gamble with other people's salvation just for our own power trips. At least, I don't see an argument that justifies it.

 

[justanotherlamb]

I would also agree that we are to quick to judge others on thier appearence. Its only Flesh.

However, I know for a fact that I am the kind of a Christian who serves with a Zest and would be quick to approach anyone to matched your description DarkHorseRising.

I believe that we should be encouraging in our faith, not judgemental. What would you do if Jesus entered your church (not going to happen, but an example) and was dressed like darkhorses description?

Cheers,
justanotherlamb

 

[Jethro Bodine]

1. These people's hearts are hardened; no effort of man can change them. I reject this concept because there have been numerous people who were firm nonbelievers, yet changed through the efforts of Believers.

That is how God has chosen to work, through his people. If any one of us is not up to the challenge, or limited by our particular gifting and faith, God can, and will, use someone else to rescue the church from behind the gates of Hades. Each one of us has to make a choice (in keeping with our gift and faith to walk in that gift) if we will be one God uses to finish that work.

But yeah, at the end of the day I REALLY don't think we have the right to potentially gamble with other people's salvation just for our own power trips. At least, I don't see an argument that justifies it.

The right to do that? Ultimately, what we don't have at the end of the day is the power to do that.

But let's not take comfort in that. It's a serious matter to hinder people's faith, and slow their entrance into, and growth within the kingdom. Jesus warns of causing his little ones to sin. And Paul warns of hindering the church with false doctrine, and causing weaker believers to stumble by what we approve of doing. But keeping people out of the kingdom? Impossible. Unless you think the gates of Hades really can overcome the church.

 

[DarkHorseRising]

That is how God has chosen to work, through his people. If any one of us is not up to the challenge, or limited by our particular gifting and faith, God can, and will, use someone else to rescue the church from behind the gates of Hades. Each one of us has to make a choice (in keeping with our gift and faith to walk in that gift) if we will be one God uses to finish that work.




The right to do that? Ultimately, what we don't have at the end of the day is the power to do that.

But let's not take comfort in that. It's a serious matter to hinder people's faith, and slow their entrance into, and growth within the kingdom. Jesus warns of causing his little ones to sin. And Paul warns of hindering the church with false doctrine, and causing weaker believers to stumble by what we approve of doing. But keeping people out of the kingdom? Impossible. Unless you think the gates of Hades really can overcome the church.

So your argument is that you can treat potential believers like garbage simply to advance your own desires, and there's no harm done because God will just send other people to undo your damage? I think that's both spiritually immature as well as cruel.

Also, your quotes about the gates of Hell (not Hades) not overcoming the Church applies to the fact that the word of God will continually be preached by Believers until the end days. It isn't about individuals. If a potential believer being drawn away from God destroys the Church, then it would have died long ago as people renounce their faith all the time.

 

[Atothetheist]

Back when I was a fundementalist Catholic ( Weird, right?) I had a belief by making the non believers aware of the true torment of Hell, and the realization that they were on a fast track towards that Hellish destination.

(Instead of saying "Go to Hell, or you WILL go to Hell" I said " You are on a fast track to hell, and you will burn once you get there.") I certainly have failed my calling to bring people towards the faith.

And I will tell you, as an atheist, there is nothing more infuriating and insulting than to be told you, and your wife, child, girlfriend, friend, etc. will burn FOREVER.

Prehaps, had I had known there was a more gentler way, I would have gotten more people into my ex-faith.

( As far as I knew, there was an anti-tatoo verse in the old testament, leviticus, I think.)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So your argument is that you can treat potential believers like garbage simply to advance your own desires, and there's no harm done...

'Can' treat them like garbage? You make it sound like I said we Christians can purposely do that to unbelievers because it doesn't determine if they'll ultimately believe the gospel or not. Was that your intent?

...because God will just send other people to undo your damage? I think that's both spiritually immature as well as cruel.

You're showing me you didn't understand my posts at all.

 

[joethemechanic]

I figure if I can derail someone's spiritual growth, they probably were halfhearted Christians to begin with. So in reality, I am doing God's work.

If getting into heaven was easy, then everybody would be there and the place would be overcrowded.

 

[Grazer]

Joe - everyone has questions which can lead to doubts. Doesn't make them half hearted Christians, just makes them human.

 

[Danus]

Let me clarify a couple of things about this topic.

1. No one saves anyone, or sends anyone to hell. What we do in the way of others does not determine their salvation or damnation. That's on each individually. God is in control (period)

2. To the OP point, Christians and the church can be a formidable forces to others seeking answers and God.

There is a good documentary on this. It's called "Lord! Save us From Your Followers"

Here is the link. http://www.lordsaveusthemovie.com/home.html

Dark Horse, Not every professing Christian is going to accept you for what ever it is you may want them to accept. Would you accept them? All of them?

There are Christians I don't want to be around. In fact I have a hard time around many of them. I understand the lost way better, but I also understand that my Christian friends are aware of their own hurts, convicted of their sins, hungry for God, in a way that you may not understand, and when they see someone who they feel is a stumbling block, they can get upset and lash out, or fill you with a bunch of rules ....whatever.

It is the responsibility of all to love and try to understand others regardless. No one does this on their own. Only Christ through us can love anyone. We can pretend I guess, but if your charging Christians for that then you're guiltily too.

You do not need other Christians to save you, not can you blame them for what you think their not doing. You can point it out. I think that's fine, say your hurt by them, ask for compassion, ...nothing wrong with that, but if you are looking only to Christians for God, you will be sorely disappointed. There are no good Christians....I keep saying this....We are flawed fallen people by nature, just like you, but we have turned our backs on sin and turned our face to God. That does not mean we are perfect like Christ. Some say they are, just leave them be. The rest of us are messed up and we know it! It is not us making the change in us, it's Christ making the change in us.

Our intent is not to stand between you and God. Our intent is to help you see Christ in your life, but all the talk is worthless unless you are willing to come along. So bring your messed up self....whatever it is, and come on along. there is a group of messed up Christians you can walk along with and ask all the questions you want. Some have had addictions of all sorts, lifestyles of sin and degradations, abused others, been abused, you name it. Some are strong and some are weak, but don't look to us to save you. Look to God. If you need help, God will send one of us to help you, but you need to cry out to him first, empty handed. If you are not willing then you are not willing , not us. Will you recognize Jesus in someone else? Not if your eyes are shut.

You can lead a sinner to salvation, but you can NOT make him accept it, because he needs to know he needs it, and make space in his heart to receive it. God can't pour into your glass if it's already full of something you put in there yourself.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I'm guessing that "if I can derail someone's spiritual growth" in Joe's post should be understood as "if what I do has the power to halt someone's spiritual growth".

If that is true, I agree completely. I know he was being funny, but he's touching on a fundamental truth.

I've seen too many Christ rejectors use the failures of the church as an excuse to not believe. I didn't do that. In fact, I was propelled forward by the failures I saw in the church. I was determined to do it right.

Someone should start a thread about all the popular arguments, often used as excuses, many unbelievers use in their rejection of the gospel. It would make an interesting list I think.

On the list would be the all too famous "you're not supposed to judge" argument. I've got my share of war wounds to know to be careful to put the 'many' in front of 'unbelievers' in my previous paragraph so the judging card can't be played against me. Jesus said be wise as serpents, but as innocent as doves.

 

[Danus]

To the Christian community, I think it's easy to separate ourselves from the non-believers in a way where we don't share Jesus, but instead create a God in our own image. I think that's how they see us sometimes. Bunch of talk and no action.

Pious hypocrisy would be one of their charges

 

[Riniel]

I believe that if we treat a non-believer badly who has decided to study other religions/faiths (christianity, and perhaps other religions), or has had an inkling to go to church, and we don't welcome them, or we give them dirty looks like they don't belong there that they would probably leave that church.

However, I believe whole heartedly that if God is tugging at their soul, and they have been feeling this need to come to know Christ, that God will provide a way for them. I think it is very wrong to treat anyone badly, even if they have tattoos all over their body, piercings, and are very thin, with dark circles under their eyes, with sores on their skin like a meth addict. I knew a meth addict who went to church to try to come to Christ and get clean, and the church didn't embrace that person. In the end they ended up meeting other Christians and it changed their life. We don't know when we are going to die, and that man could have died before he had the chance to meet the other Christian folks, but God had a plan. I am in no way saying we should treat people like crap, because if they are meant to be a child of Christ, then they will get their eventually.

I also think it is very wrong to deliberately try to derail a persons salvation to see just how much of a "christian" that person is. Some people who are just becoming familiar with God, and Jesus are usually very weak spiritually, just the way an infant is very weak, and you can't expect an infant to take care of themselves, or defend themselves against attacks, or temptation. If you put a bowl of candy in front of a toddler, and a bowl of broccoli next to the candy, we all know the child will choose the candy. It is because they are weak, and haven't learned how to resist temptation. It doesn't mean that a weak Christian isn't a whole hearted Christian. They need love, and tenderness to grow strong spiritually with Jesus, and to learn to resist temptation. That is why it is crucial that we set aside our opinions of someone, and focus more on helping them become stronger, and grow in God, and our saviour Jesus Christ. Some of you may not believe this, but through Christ all things are possible.

1 John 4:7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.