I Was Wrong!

[Vince]

Brethren, I am so ashamed, but I need to tell the truth. For decades I have taught that there are no Calvinists in the Bible, and I was wrong. I have found a Calvinist in the Bible, and I apologize for my error. Please forgive me.

 

[Vince]

Please don't be too harsh on me for my error.


I knew that Jesus wasn't a Calvinist, because He said "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself." John 12:32, so this led me to the natural error that no one else in the Bible was a Calvinist either.

But I was wrong.

 

[Vince]

It's possible that some of you are making the same error that I did. For instance, John the Baptist was not a Calvinist. He said:

"Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!" John 1:29

Since John the Baptist was the greatest man born of women, and he was not a Calvinist, some of you might be making the mistake of saying that nobody else in the Bible was a Calvinist.

 

[Theofilus]

Can you name an example of somebody who was a Calvanist?

 

[Vince]

Can you name an example of somebody who was a Calvinist?

Yes, but only one.

For instance, in addition to Jesus and John the Baptist, the Apostle John was not a Calvinist. He states in John 1:9 "That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world." Confronted with verses teaching that God calls all men to Himself, Calvinists respond "Not every man without exception!" But here the Apostle John makes clear that it is every man without exception.

 

[Vince]

Now, Brethren, I am trying to keep all of you from making the same doctrinal error that I made. While the Bible teaches that Jesus, John the Baptist, and the Apostle John were not Calvinists, it never teaches that NO ONE in the Bible was a Calvinist.

Another error would be to say that the Apostle Peter was a Calvinist. In 2 Peter 3:9, Peter states "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."

How would that make Peter a Calvinist? A Calvinist would explain that Peter meant "any saints"; he just neglected to say so.

 

[Dennyh]

: not sure if serious :

 

[Igor]

Wow, one post a day from you, Vince? And none of them answering what you know we want to hear. Is this somehow going to end with "Burma Shave"???

 

[coffeeelover]

Since John the Baptist was the greatest man born of women,

Jesus was born of a woman too.

 

[theLords]

Wait, friend, you're still wrong, Jesus' name wasn't Calvin!

Matthew 1:21
"She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins."

See :biglol ;)

 

[Sissy]

hehe!
I'm loving this thread.

 

[Vince]

I am definitely serious. For decades, I have taught that there are no Calvinists in the Bible, and I was wrong. My error proceeded from the fact that neither Jesus, John the Baptist, the Apostle John, nor the Apostle Peter were Calvinists. But that does not prove that NO ONE in the Bible was a Calvinist.

 

[coffeeelover]

Please don't be too harsh on me for my error.


I knew that Jesus wasn't a Calvinist, because He said "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself." John 12:32, so this led me to the natural error that no one else in the Bible was a Calvinist either.

.

How does that make Jesus not a Calvinist?

It makes Jesus sound like a Universalist to me, but being a universalist doesn't negate one being a Calvinist.

 

[Vince]

Good question, Coffeelover. Calvinists teach that God predestines some people to Hell. In the Bible, however, predestination is only used for Christians being conformed to God's image, and to being adopted as sons. Predestination to Heaven, to Hell, to salvation, to damnation, to repentance, to faith, to belief, and to unbelief are only philosophies of men.

 

[coffeeelover]

Good question, Coffeelover. Calvinists teach that God predestines some people to Hell. In the Bible, however, predestination is only used for Christians being conformed to God's image, and to being adopted as sons. Predestination to Heaven, to Hell, to salvation, to damnation, to repentance, to faith, to belief, and to unbelief are only philosophies of men.

Any interpretation of a bible by anyone is a philosophy of man. Your interpretation that Jesus was not a Calvanist is a philosophy of a man.

I am also not certain of your interpretation that Calvanists think people are predestined to hell. I have always been under the impression that they say Gods elect are predestined. Now If everyone is predestined to Heaven (Universalism) then no one is predestined to hell.

Also, Calvanism is just one way many people try to wrestle with the question if God knows what you will do before God creates you then how can there not be predestination.

 

[Vince]

To make things even more confusing, it is clear that God the Father is not a Calvinist. He does not irresistibly force men to pretend to turn to Christ.

In Matthew 22: 1 And Jesus answered and spoke to them again by parables and said:
2 "The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who arranged a marriage for his son,
3 and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not willing to come.


But the Calvinist will object "No, God has two calls: His sincere call and His hypocritical call. This is God's hypocritical call. He doesn't really want these people to respond, and He has made no provision for them to respond."

But in verse 4, Jesus continues "Again, he sent out other servants, saying, 'Tell those who are invited, "See, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and fatted cattle are killed, and all things are ready. Come to the wedding." '

God the Father declares to the lost "...all things are ready." They really can be saved. Atonement really has been provided.

So I hope that none of you will fall into my previous error. The fact that God the Father is not a Calvinist does not prove that NOBODY in the Bible was a Calvinist.

 

[coffeeelover]

To make things even more confusing, it is clear that God the Father is not a Calvinist. He does not irresistibly force men to pretend to turn to Christ.

In Matthew 22: 1 And Jesus answered and spoke to them again by parables and said:
2 "The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who arranged a marriage for his son,
3 and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not willing to come.
.

How is God not Calvinist?

Here are the 5 points of Calvanism. How are they wrong? How are God and Jesus not Calvanists?

• "Total depravity": This doctrine, also called "total inability," asserts that as a consequence of the fall of man into sin, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin. People are not by nature inclined to love God with their whole heart, mind, or strength, but rather all are inclined to serve their own interests over those of their neighbor and to reject the rule of God. Thus, all people by their own faculties are morally unable to choose to follow God and be saved because they are unwilling to do so out of the necessity of their own natures. (The term "total" in this context refers to sin affecting every part of a person, not that every person is as evil as possible.)[7]
• "Unconditional election": This doctrine asserts that God's choice from eternity of those whom he will bring to himself is not based on foreseen virtue, merit, or faith in those people. Rather, it is unconditionally grounded in God's mercy alone.[8]
• "Limited atonement": Also called "particular redemption" or "definite atonement," this doctrine asserts that Jesus's substitutionary atonement was definite and certain in its design and accomplishment. This implies that only the sins of the elect were atoned for by Jesus's death. Calvinists do not believe, however, that the atonement is limited in its value or power (in other words, God could have elected everyone and used it to atone for them all), but rather that the atonement is limited in the sense that it is designed for some and not all. Hence, Calvinists hold that the atonement is sufficient for all and efficient for the elect.[9] The doctrine is driven by the Calvinistic concept of the sovereignty of God in salvation and their understanding of the nature of the atonement.
• "Irresistible grace": This doctrine, also called "efficacious grace," asserts that the saving grace of God is effectually applied to those whom he has determined to save (that is, the elect) and, in God's timing, overcomes their resistance to obeying the call of the gospel, bringing them to a saving faith. This means that when God sovereignly purposes to save someone, that individual certainly will be saved. The doctrine holds that every influence of God's Holy Spirit cannot be resisted, but that the Holy Spirit, "graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ."[10]
• "Perseverance of the saints": Perseverance (or preservation) of the saints (The word "saints" is used in the Biblical sense to refer to all who are set apart by God, and not in the technical sense of one who is exceptionally holy, canonized, or in heaven). The doctrine asserts that since God is sovereign and his will cannot be frustrated by humans or anything else, those whom God has called into communion with himself will continue in faith until the end. Those who apparently fall away either never had true faith to begin with or will return.[11]

 

[Vince]

Another cause for this error is the fact that the Holy Spirit is not a Calvinist. In John 16, Jesus explained part of the work of the Holy Spirit:

8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Calvinism teaches that God makes no provision for salvation and gives no call to the world. They explain that when Jesus said "world," He meant "the elect." However, the Greek word translated "world" never means "the elect" anywhere in classical Greek literature, nor in the Bible. Jesus specifically told His followers that they are not of the world.

But the disciple of Calvin will claim that there is more than one world, and this is the world of the elect." (a definition not found anywhere in Greek). "You cannot know which world the Bible is talking about," explains the Calvinist, "if you only study the Bible. You must first learn Calvinism, and then adjust Scripture to its teachings."

But in the very next verse, Jesus explains why the Holy Spirit will convict the world of sin: "because they do not believe in Me;" showing that the "world" refers to lost people, not saints.

BUT, the fact that the Holy Spirit is not a Calvinist does not prove that there are no Calvinists in the Bible.

 

[Adstar]

I wonder?

When Vince finally reveals his biblical calvanist will it be satan?


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[coffeeelover]

So far be is just making statements with no good argument, and ignoring any discussion. Perhaps he thinks he is being clever.