Illegal immigration

[katsa]

Ok this may be a crazy question - yes, Illegal Immigration is a problem that needs fixing but we have to admit not all Illegals are "breaking the law" - How about victims of domestic violence, and abuse who have no where to run, I have heard quite a few stories that have softened my heart on this stance, not many citizens understand how lucky they are to live in this country given the circumstances others live in forcing them to ... well jump over the fence; yet theres one burning question - In all is this considered 'sinful' behavior?

 

[antitox]

They don't have to jump the fence. But if you violate a country's borders, you deserve to be deported. Unless we enforce what was instituted for our protection, our society's infrastructure, and our country's language, we are going to lose something. And we already are.

If you didn't see my post on another thread about this, I will re-state that my two yrs at a local police dept in a small-to-mid-size city, that 30 to 40% of our arrests were illegals. Their population was a very small portion of our city, yet the arrests were astronomical in proportion.

It's all nice to hold to the idea that they want a better life, but when it comes to illegals, they continue to live the same way here that they did in Mexico. Drunks, large numbers live in small apartments, they carouse, fight, disturb the peace, drive without insurance and run into people and drive off. And we, the police, have to spend our time on calls with people that shouldn't be here instead of taking care of our citizens.

I have NO SYMPATHY for them. They are creating pockets of communities that cannot speak english, refuse to assimilate into America's culture, don't want America's values, want a free ride (and get one), then break our laws like a bad habit. No thanks.

 

[Rick W]

The thing that bothers me is beef, or any meat for that matter, coming across the border must be scrutinized by the FDA/USDA for a reason. Yet, it seems those in authority have no problems with "living meat" being exposed to the populace. It's like there's no "customs" to worry about. No "inspection" of any kind, no tests, no nothing.

Also there are those who are waiting for their citizenship legally. Yet, they can't get into this country but the "line jumpers" have no problem. It's just not fair for those going the legal route.

 

[katsa]

Thats true the problems you present antitox - overcrowding, crime, stolen ssns, refusing to integrate etc but I asked how about the few who have no choice but leave their countries because of fear, I asked specifically about women victims of violence.

 

[antitox]

But if we make exceptions for one, we have to do it for all. Law cannot be enforced if we can pick and choose who gets to break the law and who doesn't. Law must be enforced across the board without question if it is going to have any effect at all.

 

[Rick W]

Aren't there laws in Mexico concerning "women victims of violence"? If they don't enforce their laws then does that mean we shouldn't?
It's a human interest issue of course. And these (women victims of violence) by no means are the rule for the exodus across the border. While exceptional circumstances do exist that doesn't mean exceptional treatment across the board.
One must first address the major issue and get that locked down. Then zero in on the minority of issues. Stop the flood first then focus on the trickles that may need exceptional treatment.

 

[antitox]

I agree. Stop the flood. i wish congress would agree to install the wall - and one that goes deep enough into the ground. That would allow our agents to get a better handle on the border.

 

[gadget]

Hmm...and what town is this? Why not accuse the chinese immigrants in New york for their illegal infractions, while you're at it.

People are people whever you go.

I am not even christan, but didn't jesus say " generation of vipers!" Why don't you get your facts straight before using derogatory statements. Also, another example of a hate crime-

 

[Dunamite]

God made enough to go around. As long as we have more that our share then others will seek to join us. If they had more opportunities in their own country then there would be no problem. It is inequity that causes people to leave their families, risk their lives and leave their homeland.

Capitalism has always required people to work as cheap as possible. Once slavery was allowed and sweatshops and child labor were the norm. Many Americans are willing to hire illegal aliens to fill places previously occupied by slaves, children and the disadvantaged.

You are deluding yourself if you think that they are to blame for their circumstances. They are being held hostage by and economic system that rewards greed and encourages exploitation. Our very prosperity means that they will not have enough. You cannot create an affluent, materialistic, disposable society without somebody losing out.

Our political system props up third world dictators. Our economic system creates banana republics. It is our greed and uncaring attitude that leads to much of the world's poverty.

When they throw off their slave masters and reform the system we cry foul, embargo them or at worst invade their country. America has invaded sovereign nations over 200 times since it threw off the British yoke in an attempt to establish their own economic superiority.

Things will not change until we change.

Blessings,
Dunamite

 

[stephan11]

Deut. 26:5-9. The Egyptians treated us harshly and afflicted us, and imposed hard labor on us. Then we cried to the LORD, the God of our fathers, and the LORD heard our voice and saw our affliction and our toil and our oppression; and the LORD brought us out of Egypt with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm and with great terror and with signs and wonders; and He has brought us to... this land flowing with milk and honey.

Luke 4:16-21. And He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up; and as was His custom, He entered the synagogue on the Sabbath, and stood up to read... "The Spirit of the LORD is upon Me, because He appointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor. He has sent Me to proclaim release to the captives, and recovery of sight to the blind, to set free those who are downtrodden, to proclaim the favorable year of the LORD... Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing."

Ps. 140:12. I know that the LORD will maintain the cause of the afflicted, and justice for the poor.

Is. 25:4. For You have been a defense for the helpless, a defense for the needy in his distress.

Ps. 10:14. The unfortunate commits himself to You; You have been the helper of the orphan... O LORD, You have heard the desire of the humble; You will strengthen their heart, You will incline Your ear to vindicate the orphan and the oppressed.

Is 41:17. The afflicted and needy are seeking water, but there is none, and their tongue is parched with thirst. I, the LORD, will answer them Myself, as the God of Israel I will not forsake them.

Luke 6:20-21. Blessed are you who are poor, for yours in the kingdom of God. Blessed are you who hunger now, for you shall be satisfied. Blessed are you who weep now, for you shall laugh.

James 2:5. Did not God choose the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?

Commentary:I think it's fair to say that American attitudes toward the poor-- and perhaps not just in America-- are mostly disdain and fear. They're dangerous and different. Sometimes there's a suspicion that their condition is their own fault, that they're simply lazy or inferior. Other Americans are more kind-hearted, but prefer not to look at the poor too closely; it's depressing, and they're surely not fun people to be with.

These attitudes are a world away from God's attitudes, as described in these verses. Neediness arouses compassion in God-- and action.

We may think: "Of course God loves the poor; he loves everybody." But it's not so simple as that; God's character is presented as a model for our own. If God values the poor, we have to think about what that means for us.

As long as i turn my back on the needy, The Good Lord can never work in me to help them.

 

[Rick W]

I agree stephan11. But is SO much easier and better when things are done within the laws set forth by the country we live in.

 

[stephan11]

I'm not sure where in the bible it talks about things being easier for Christians. In fact, I can remember many places concerning things being tougher, the book of James talks about it being a great joy when we have trials, for instance. I just don't see why you would stop somebody who is making barely a few dollars a day, if even that much. so the question we should be facing, i suppose, is: how do we help the needy and forget about our own selfish needs and therefore do the work of the Lord.

 

[L.C.]

Posted by antitox:

They don't have to jump the fence. But if you violate a country's borders, you deserve to be deported. Unless we enforce what was instituted for our protection, our society's infrastructure, and our country's language, we are going to lose something. And we already are.

If you didn't see my post on another thread about this, I will re-state that my two yrs at a local police dept in a small-to-mid-size city, that 30 to 40% of our arrests were illegals. Their population was a very small portion of our city, yet the arrests were astronomical in proportion.

It's all nice to hold to the idea that they want a better life, but when it comes to illegals, they continue to live the same way here that they did in Mexico. Drunks, large numbers live in small apartments, they carouse, fight, disturb the peace, drive without insurance and run into people and drive off. And we, the police, have to spend our time on calls with people that shouldn't be here instead of taking care of our citizens.

I have NO SYMPATHY for them. They are creating pockets of communities that cannot speak english, refuse to assimilate , into America's culture, don't want America's values, want a free ride (and get one), then break our laws like a bad habit. No thanks.

Wow, that's a pretty narrow view antitox, unfortunately being in law enforcement, you only see the dregs of society and have formulated an opinion based on your experiences, which are limited at best. It's ok, because it balances out, there are many Mexicans who live in tourist towns like Puerto Vallarta and Mazatlan that hold the same opinion of Americans-they carouse, fight, get drunk, and disturb the peace, add to this, they are wasteful, braggarts, loud, and also fill the prisons in those towns, the list goes on.

So what's my point? Maybe we need to be a little more broad in our perspective and thinking and try to embrace someone else's reality for a moment. I know this is supremely difficult for us as American's because we don't comprehend what it is to truly need. Take a look in your community to see who is taking the jobs "Americans" don't or won't occupy, like working in the fields. There are many "illegals" in my community who are working hard and paying taxes. They are not on any kind of free ride.

btw What is "American culture" anyway? What about Ellis Island? What kind of people entered through that port-the tired, poor, hungry, in search of a better life immigrants turned American's who preserved parts of their cultures to make this country the rich melting pot it is.

I guess "these people" are the ones Jesus was referring to when he mentioned the "least of these", or was He only referring to our fellow Americans? I am sorry for your negative experiences, but we all must make a choice to love in spite of our differences and to bear one another's burdens. Isn't that what true Christianity is all about?

 

[TyCowboy]

My stance on illegal immigration has nothing to do with my support of the poor and the dirty, nor my take on helping those who can not help themselves. I am in favor of both. That said, there are laws concerning the immigration into the United States which ought to be followed. In fact, Jesus would have us to submit ourselves to the authority which has been placed over us. So by breaking the law,they become criminals, guilty in the eyes of the government into whose jurisdiction they have just snuck. I hate sounding legalistic or harsh, but the reality is that if they would like to come over, there are perfectly legal ways to do so. They have simply opted for the illegal, which should suggest something to us of their real motive, and willfulness to violate the law.

That said, the solution is not more laws or more walls. It is very simple. We should simply begin to levy massive fines on those employers in the US who hire illegals, and to begin to actively seek them out. If we did so, it would be a very short matter of time before the job market for illegal labor would dry up, and they would deport themselves back to the various central american countries from which they came.

Ty.

 

[handy]

I do take exception to the "jobs that Americans won't do" line.

There seems to be a big move to try to convince Americans that illegals only come to work as field hands and housekeepers. Not true. Most of the men in my family were able to support their wives and families in the construction business, especially flooring and cabinets. Well, it's getting harder and harder for my brother and b-i-l's to find work because a lot of the larger companies are hiring illegals at a fraction of the cost that my brother and b-i-l's must charge in order to buy their matierials, pay their wages and cover insurance costs. And, no one was getting rich in my family, we're all strickly at the lower end of the Middle Income bracket, but nonetheless there was a time just 20 years ago where neither of my sisters, nor my s-i-l worked out of the home. Now they have to. The guys simply cannot drop their prices any lower, they cannot and still make any kind of a decent wage. Since the costs of materials go up, my guys have already dropped their own income. Yet, when a huge development project took place just up the road from my b-i-l, he didn't get one, not one of the bids in an area that he has built a reputation for the past 25 years. The day I was visiting them, my sister and I sat in a cafe, eating breakfast and watched as truck after truck filled with obviously poor, hispanic day workers headed up the road to the development.

Sure, a citizen can report it. But it doesn't do any good. Part of the problem is that our Senator Larry Craig speaks out of both sides of his mouth, giving lip service to the problem, while sitting on his hands and doing nothing about due to the powerful agricultural lobbies.