Is God Torah

[manichunter]

Is God Torah?

Joh 1:1 -In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jesus is the Word.

Joh 5:39 - "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
Scripture are all about Jesus

Mt 4:4 -But He answered and said, "It is written, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God."'
Scripture come from out of the heart of God since from the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

Lu 4:32 -And they were astonished at His teaching, for His word was with authority.
Of course His word had authority, He is the Word.

Joh 15:7 - "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
Jesus abides in us by Spirit an Torah in our heart as illustrated below.

Jer 31:33 -But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
Eze 36:27 - I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

Joh 14:26 -"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
Jesus sent the Spirit to teach us His Word, not a new Word, but things God has already spoken.

2Ti 3:16 - All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
What Jesus put in it us is for our instruction, but it has to be set free from the bondage of carnality through mortification and sanctification. All Scripture is God breathe.

Ga 3:22 - But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
All of the First Covenant Scripture was given to mankind for instruction and convinced man as a transgressor.

A few words to consider-
Greek- "Word and Scripture"
Rhema (Word)- that which is or has been uttered by the living voice, thing spoken, word
Logos (word) - a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea, doctrine, teaching
Graphe (Scripture)- the Scripture, used to denote either the book itself, or its contents
Gramma (Scripture)- letter, of sacred learning
Nomos (law)- anything established, anything received by usage, a custom, a law, a command

Hebrew- "Word and Scripture"
imrah (word)- word of God, the Torah
amar (word)- to say, speak, utter
Kathab (Scripture)- a writing, document, edict
Towrah (law, commandment)- law, direction, instruction
Mitsvah (Commandment, ordinance)- commandment
Dabar (Commandment/Word)- speech, word, speaking, thing

Most of these words share common meanings between them. The original word for Law in Greek does not mean all the things the word for Law in the Hebrew means. Torah adds the meaning of discipleship like a master or father would hand down to a pupil or son by means of instructions for conduct or directions our life should follow.

What I am trying to say is that Jesus is the Word of God. Hence everything that He has spoken came from the heart of God. All Scripture is God breathed. Hence is the Torah God and God the Torah, as Jesus is the Word and the Word is Jesus?

 

[manichunter]

I am personalily talking about Jesus who is the word, hence the entirety and totality of all Scripture (The Word/Rhema) as we like to religiously say. Jesus is called the Word of God, hence everything spoken by God is about Jesus. It is a description of His person, character, office, and nature. We cannot selectively separate elements from the whole by personal choice and still have truth. This is where the stuggle is. How to reconcile the elements and aspects of God that I am not in agreement with?

Some examples christians say:
Some people say if God is love, then why is their so much violence?
Some people say if God is merciful, then why am I suffering so badly?
Some people say if God is Torah, then why is there so much lawlessness?
Some people say if God is good, then why did my brother have to die?

Lu 21:33 - Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
Nothing of Jesus' word is passing away.

Joh 12:49 - For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.
Everything spoken by Jesus came from the Father.

Mt 10:20 - for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.
The same should go for us.

 

[manichunter]

Okay context LOL. What type of priesthood does the old Mel represent in the context of this passage. I will study it all from the Greek context. What type of priesthood is reflected, one of flesh and blood or one of spirit.

Greek Word for change in the text is Metathesis and it means either change, removing, translation. Which one fits here, is up to you to seek the Holy Spirit about. I am going to go with translate. The priesthood was translated from one of flesh (Levi) to one of spirit (Christ), hence, the applicable Torah was translated from flesh to spirit as well. How could Christ be a eternal spiritual priest with no Torah is non-starter.


Hebrews 7: 1-3 1 For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, 2to whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all, first being translated "king of righteousness," and then also king of Salem, meaning "king of peace," 3without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually. (He was the foreshadowed witness of Christ eternal and spiritual priesthood) Hence, why his lineage is not known and his days are not recorded because he meant to reflect Christ. He represent Christ's eternal office and role of intercession over all man.

Hebrews 7:11-17 11 Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron? 12For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law. 13For He of whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no man has officiated at the altar.
14For it is evident that our Lord arose from Judah, of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood. 15And it is yet far more evident if, in the likeness of Melchizedek, there arises another priest 16who has come, not according to the law of a fleshly commandment, but according to the power of an endless life. 17For He testifies:
"You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek."
(Levi were a fleshy priesthood that administered fleshly commandments and ordinances) Christ is a spiritual priest who administers spiritual commandments and ordinances as illustrated in Matt 5. Levi was a foreshadow as well of Christ's functions and intentions towards us as High Priest.

Hebrews 7:22-28 22by so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant. 23Also there were many priests, because they were prevented by death from continuing. 24But He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood. 25Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
26For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; 27who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people's, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. 28For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever.
(Christ who was the lamb slain before the foundation of the world revealed the spiritual realities of mankinds needs by bringing them out of shadows and into revelations that have become obtainable through His Spirit)

Hey did learn something new from the Holy Spirit in this study and response to your question. Everytime Jesus said "I say to you", He was establishing a command. He was establishing spiritual torah by elevating the revelation of torah and correcting man's errors.

Matt 5:31, 32 31 "Furthermore it has been said, "Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.' 32But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality F17 causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery. (Here Christ sets the record straight concerning divorce) (This was a command that says bump what you heard, this is what I say to you as your God)

Mt 5:18 -For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.(Christ back this command up with a double gaurantee, He must have known that people would trash His Torah again as the Hebrews had done) Mt 5:20 - For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. (Well this was impossible, hence no man shall be justified by the Torah)

Mt 5:28 - But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. (Here he elevates the commandment to a higher reality of motives and secret thoughts) (The physical torah never applied or addressed a person's motives and secret thoughts, just actions)

Mt 5:34 - But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God's throne; (I am telling you to say yes or no, thats it)

Mt 5:44 - But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, (Christ says that you are no longer excused for loving with the love of mankind, but now you have to love with the love of God which leaves no remove for hate) The first covenant never addressed hate as sin. However, those they have matured in love in the second covenant can go beyond the infant type of love of mankind to love even their enemies.

 

[manichunter]

Yes the law changed in the sense of a translation taking place from one viewed in a fleshy sense to that of spiritual. This what I have been saying all along that the Torah was not passed away or done away with, but transfigured into the same thing of a spiritual priesthood.

How could Christ be a high priest without a spiritual Torah. Only the devil would be interested in the saints being spiritually lawless.

Christ called us to a royal spiritual priesthood as well to give spiritual sacrifices. Not in the same sense of the esrthly sacrifices but spiritual sacrifices that were foreshadowed by the earthly sacrifices. This is why Paul said the following and he was being literal in his spiritual meaning:
Php 2:17 -as a drink offering on the sacrifice and service of your faith, I am glad and rejoice with you all.

So few no what He means out of ignorance of the fleshly Torah which was the shadow. Well you cannot put it own spiritual if it is not seen first from its shadow. However, we are all called to a be burnt offering, meal offering, and peace offering in the spiritual which is our reasonable service.

The problem is our carnality. A lot of saints have been taught a learned bias and hate against anything related to teaching and instituting anything related to the fleshly Torah. Hence, their is an automatic disdain and rejection in some saints against it that causes a lack of investigating the subject matter. We others teach that Torah is passed away or done away with, then they strip the saints of their means of making proper spiritual sacrifices.

However, what could be understood is that Jesus actually raised the standard of our expected conduct not lowered it. In Matt 5:17-19, the Greek for fulfilled is better translated (Pleroo-to complete and fill in).

Christ in the following passeges then explains and instructs people how He fulfilled the fleshly Torah by expecting more out of our conduct. He was establishing Spiritual principles of Torah on top of the fleshly Torah.

Matt 5: 21 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, "You shall not murder, F13 and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.' 22But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause F14 shall be in danger of the judgment. (Now we can murder in our heart by hate, when before there was no law against this) Now Christ established the true intent by Spiritual Torah bying keeping the old and building on it an elevated understanding.

Matt 5: 43 "You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbor F19 and hate your enemy.' 44But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, F20 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47And if you greet your brethren F21 only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors F22 do so? 48Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

(Now Christ fills in the fleshy Torah by establishing a new principle of divine love on top of carnal love. Under the old Torah one was allowed to hate his enemies, but that was a immature form of love. Christ now expects us to be as the Father in the manner of love. I can see Christ in these versus wanting to finish with, be ye holy as Your Father is Holy.)

He spends the next few chapters explaining spiritual torah in its new application built upon the fleshly torah. He makes the direct commands of, "I say to you."
__________________

 

[BobRyan]

What I am trying to say is that Jesus is the Word of God. Hence everything that He has spoken came from the heart of God. All Scripture is God breathed. Hence is the Torah God and God the Torah, as Jesus is the Word and the Word is Jesus?

Jesus is the Word.
Jesus is God
The Torah is the Word of God

The function of the Word is to convey information, Law, Character, Love, etc

When Jesus speaks -- God has spoken.

in Christ,

Bob