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[_ Old Earth _] Is ID really creationism rebranded?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Snidey
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Snidey

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This is a video interview with a member of the legal team that won an easy victory in the Dover trial:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUB8Mv1SaKQ

Their main task was trying to demonstrate that those central players in the creationist movement, upon losing court cases in the 1980s, did not make an effort to concoct a new theory to explain the diversity of species, but rather changed around the terminology so that they could pass off creationism as something else.

They did prove this, and they did it in a fairly simple way - by comparing drafts of a popular creationist/ID textbook before creationism was struck down and after. In doing so, they found instances of the word "creationism" being simply replaced with "intelligent design," without the definition changing. And most damningly, the phrase "cdesign proponentsists" was found in a book. What is this odd phrase? It's the result of someone failing to properly copy and paste the phrase "design proponents" over the word "creationists."
 
Keep in mind ID in it's essence makes no claims for or even mentions Christ. A deist may well embrace ID but leave Christ totally out of the picture. I don't have time to expand on this (have to get ready for work) but let it be known that not all Christians uphold all the ideas put forth by ID.
 
My point is not about how ID can be defined. Obviously it's a more vague term than creationism - it leaves room for panspermia, in the eyes of some.

What I am more interested in is whether the origin of the term "intelligent design" was a disingenuous one, one specifically designed as a legal loophole to get around the fact that creationism had been banned in schools. This evidences that that is indeed the case.
 
Potluck said:
Keep in mind ID in it's essence makes no claims for or even mentions Christ.

True - but Darwinists on this board go to court room documents where judges are duped into unwittingly censoring thought in highschools in favor of atheist drawinist dogma when they want to "define something" in science.

As opposed to the Discovery Institute's actual definition for ID science.

From “Discovery Instituteâ€Â
http://www.intelligentdesign.org/whatisid.php

What is intelligent design?
Intelligent design refers to a scientific research program as well as a community of scientists, philosophers and other scholars who seek evidence of design in nature. The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection. Through the study and analysis of a system's components, a design theorist is able to determine whether various natural structures are the product of chance, natural law, intelligent design, or some combination thereof. Such research by observing the types of information produced when intelligent agents act. Scientists then seek to find objects which have those same types of informational properties which we commonly know come from intelligence. Intelligent design has applied these scientific methods to detect design in irreducibly complex biological structures, the complex and specified information content in DNA, the life-sustaining physical architecture of the universe, and the geologically rapid origin of biological diversity in the fossil record during the Cambrian explosion approximately 530 million years ago.

And of course we see that it is not YEC -- not even remotely.

But for devotees to atheist darwinism - the main point is that "it is not atheism" and that is all it takes to get believers in atheist darwinism "going".

Bob
 
Snidey said:
This evidences that that is indeed the case.

All I see is atheists fearful that any amount of REAL science that is ALLOWED in the class room without being required to pander to the dogma of atheism -- is a threat to the atheist religion.


Intelligent Design:

Academic Freedom to “follow the data where it leads†EVEN if it leads to a conclusion (such as Intelligent Design) that does not pander to the central doctrines and dogmas of atheists"

Certainly that is NOT YEC -- but shudder shudder shudder -- it is also NOT atheism!! fear! Oh my!

Bob
 
This is what everyone is talking about. Two posts, neither addresses anything presented in the OP. Slightly related rhetoric does not a relevant post make.
 
The OP asks the question IS ID really Creationism...

the "gloss over all details that merely serve as inconvenient facts getting in the way of a good story" set of antics being employed by devotees to atheist darwinism here lead them to conclude that any post that simply deals factually and objectively with the subject WHAT IS ID -- "contains nothing of interest".

Apparently the devotees to atheist darwinism can "only hear themselves talking"

How sad that Patterson should be proven right AGAIN on this thread.

The objective unbiased reader SEES in my post above the GAP between ID science and the faith-based statements of devotees to atheist darwinism as well as the faith based statement of YEC Christians.

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=33062&p=392365#p392344

The objective unbiased reader ALSO SEES the gap between the way atheist darwinist devotees NEED to "spin ID" and what is actually being said about it in the DISCOVERY INSTITUTE's pages.

Again this is easy enough to read and "get" -- not sure why the darwinists are bent on pretending the points are getting past them.

As for the text book and "words replace by ID" -- surely the atheist has the shudder shudder - conspiracy knee jerk reaction. And I am not arguing that atheists need to be "less concerned" that ID SCIENCE is not atheism's DOGMA. They need to be concerned that in fact SCIENCE is not always going to befriend ATHEISM when it is given Academic FREEDOM to follow the data.


Bob
 
Here's a really good video I watched just a couple of days ago, it explains categorically why Intelligent Design is not science but rather just a new term for creationism. It raises several fundamental problems which exclude ID from being proper science and makes mention to the Dover trial where Intelligent Design was thrown out in the supreme court for being creationism by a Christian Judge.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRdVHudd ... h_response

Intelligent Design is not "freedom to follow the data where it leads", that's what SCIENCE does, and has been doing since the end of the dark ages. Intelligent Design is freedom to lie to the public that there is:

1) Actually a debate going on in the scientific community between the supporters of ID and ToE.
2) Any direct evidence in nature who's only conclusion is design.

The final proof really that ID is thinly veiled creationism is that a Christian, a Jew or a Muslim can support Evolution (and many, many do), but an atheist cannot support ID. No form of science picks who's allowed to support it based on their religion - Except Intelligent design.

Anyhow, nice video, kudos to that woman for taking the fight to the Creationists. Have a look at the video I linked, it's really quite neat in it's summations.
 
Good, concise video. BBC actually did a little documentary on the Dover trial that was pretty interesting. Gave the ID side (Behe, Dembski, and a couple of others) a decent amount of time to say their piece but generally taking the (correct) position, as I'd expect a lot of Brits to, that ID is an outgrowth of fundamentalist Christianity in America rather than some considerable sect of the scientific community.
 
The evidence showing that a creationist textbook had simply been altered to remove "creationism" and to add "intelligent design" (in at least one place an error documented the alteration) was sufficient to show ID is merely repackaged creationism.

And the motive is simple enough. Creationism, as a religion, is prohibited from public schools as a subject. Is it possible to argue that ID is creationism, with all the religion squeezed out?

I suppose so, but the Wedge Document, by the Discovery Institute inadvertently admits that ID is also a religious doctrine.

They didn't want that document to become publicly known, of course, but they bungled it and leaked it by mistake.
 
Although it is entertaining to watch darwinists "talk to themselves about what they imagine ID science to be".

It is actually "instructive" to observe what ID scientists themselves say about it.

Obviously.

======================================================

Potluck said:
Keep in mind ID in it's essence makes no claims for or even mentions Christ.

True - but Darwinists on this board go to court room documents where judges are duped into unwittingly censoring thought in highschools in favor of atheist drawinist dogma when they want to "define something" in science.

As opposed to the Discovery Institute's actual definition for ID science.

From “Discovery Instituteâ€Â
http://www.intelligentdesign.org/whatisid.php

What is intelligent design?
Intelligent design refers to a scientific research program as well as a community of scientists, philosophers and other scholars who seek evidence of design in nature. The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection. Through the study and analysis of a system's components, a design theorist is able to determine whether various natural structures are the product of chance, natural law, intelligent design, or some combination thereof. Such research by observing the types of information produced when intelligent agents act. Scientists then seek to find objects which have those same types of informational properties which we commonly know come from intelligence. Intelligent design has applied these scientific methods to detect design in irreducibly complex biological structures, the complex and specified information content in DNA, the life-sustaining physical architecture of the universe, and the geologically rapid origin of biological diversity in the fossil record during the Cambrian explosion approximately 530 million years ago.

And of course we see that it is not YEC -- not even remotely.

But for devotees to atheist darwinism - the main point is that "it is not atheism" and that is all it takes to get believers in atheist darwinism "going".

Bob
 
XolotlOfMictlan said:
The final proof really that ID is thinly veiled creationism is that a Christian, a Jew or a Muslim can support Evolution (and many, many do), but an atheist cannot support ID. No form of science picks who's allowed to support it based on their religion - Except Intelligent design.

All I see is atheists fearful that any amount of REAL science that is ALLOWED in the class room without being required to pander to the dogma of atheism -- is a threat to the atheist religion.

Hint: Christians Jews and Muslims have no "rational fear" of ID.


Intelligent Design:

Academic Freedom to “follow the data where it leads†EVEN if it leads to a conclusion (such as Intelligent Design) that does not pander to the central doctrines and dogmas of atheists"

Certainly that is NOT YEC -- but shudder shudder shudder -- it is also NOT atheism!! fear! Oh my!

Bob
 
lol @ calling ID "not even remotely" like creationism. That's a good one.

You constantly claim that we dodge your points. It's a pretty serious case of projection, and here are a couple examples:

First, you never actually address the fact that a lot of evidence points to the term intelligent design being a legally-oriented rebranding of creationism. If textbooks literally had the two terms switched, that not only means some very lazy corruption was involved in trying to dodge SCOTUS decisions on the part of top creationism proponents, but that even those writing the textbooks see the terms as interchangeable.

Second, how many people have pointed out how ridiculous your "definition" of ID is? It does not actually come even remotely close to defining the term. It doesn't even make any sense as a definition. It says it's the freedom to follow the data where it leads, even if it leads to a conclusion such as intelligent design. THE TERM IS IN THE DEFINITION. The definition itself doesn't even speak to the core of the idea. It also presents no facts or evidence, it's just rhetoric. Please stop using it as a definition.
 
ID does not recognize the God of the bible as the designer but rather only that there must be intelligence, could be from anywhere, that directed the creation of the universe and all within it.
I know who my creator is. I do not deny Jesus Christ.

John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

As soon as an atheist questions Genesis the discussion is no longer about ID but swings from ID to the debate that has been going on since the Darwinism became popular. Nothing new here. Old topic.
Do I believe intelligence was involved. Yes, but I will not deny the Creator.

"Is ID really creationism rebranded?"
Not in my book. I refuse to deny Christ.

Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

BobRyan said:
And of course we see that it is not YEC -- not even remotely.

I agree with Bob on this. I not only believe in God but I believe God. I not only believe in Christ but I believe Christ. And from what I see so does Bob.

"Following the data where it leads" shifts sovereignty from God to man.
 
YEC is only different from ID in theory. The idea that "this looks designed" doesn't necessitate a young earth, but the correlation between believers of the two ideas is so ridiculously high that the connection is clear. They are terms and beliefs that stem from the same movement. ID is not necessarily Christian, but it's a term almost exclusive to the Christian world, at least in America.

What does your refusal to deny Christ have to do with creationism being rebranded into ID? Do you have anything that actually refutes the notion? So far there's a lot of "well this just is not the case" when it's pretty clear that when the idea of ID was spawned, it was as a method for overcoming Supreme Court rulings on creationism.
 
Do Christians believe intelligence created the universe? You bet. It's not hard at all to see how ID has become equated with Christianity. Nor is it difficult to understand why many Christians endorse ID without really understanding what it is they are endorsing... the outright denial of God the Creator and Jesus Christ.
So when someone speaks of a huge difference between ID and Christianity few people can understand why that person claims such a thing.
As I said before, ID excludes Christ and God the Father no less. Yes, there is a big difference.

If you want to put the two together that's your choice but it's certainly not my belief.
:smt102
 
Two things.

1. You've still avoided the whole point of the origins of the actual term and the efforts by leading creationists to simply replace the two terms in common use in order to exploit a legal loophole. You speak as if it's a coincidence that the two terms are now associated, when in fact it's a direct result of people who believe in creation creating the other term to get creation into schools. This not only speaks to the reality of the connectedness of the two concepts, but the ethics of those in the movement.

2. In no way is ID a rejection of Christ, that is ridiculous.
 
Snidey said:
Two things.

1. You've still avoided the whole point of the origins of the actual term and the efforts by leading creationists to simply replace the two terms in common use in order to exploit a legal loophole. You speak as if it's a coincidence that the two terms are now associated, when in fact it's a direct result of people who believe in creation creating the other term to get creation into schools. This not only speaks to the reality of the connectedness of the two concepts, but the ethics of those in the movement.

I hardly believe anyone can deny the courts found Pandas and People to be fraudulent.
But ID has not been banned anymore than evolution has been banned when fraud was exposed within it's circles of influence.

Snidey said:
2. In no way is ID a rejection of Christ, that is ridiculous.

Does ID support Jesus Christ?

Mat 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
 
An analogy written to shed light into ID’s identity as creationism or science . . . 8-)

The tiny figures scaling the monolith carefully examined its weather torn surface; certainly there was something creative at work in these features and patterns throughout the mountainside. As Royand observed the work from his distant position he saw that each of the four distinct forms had similar features, and the complexity of pattern revealed design, though the data input thus far remained inconclusive. This dead planet was very likely razed by random implosions and had exhibited no earlier known signs of life. However, the research would continue until all avenues of exploration for these phenomena were discovered. It remained the honoured work of their planet’s intrepid intellects to scan the cosmos for all intellectual signs of life. As the excavators worked Royand sought the sky for the familiar band of light which reminded him of home. It was a long way across that band and he would not see his green planet, Simaril, ever again. Still, they were certain now, that the cosmos held the mysteries to origin.

What if?

Intelligent Design advocates are asking a seemingly harmless question: Can objects in which nothing is known about how they arose, exhibit features that reliably signal the action of an intelligent cause? What if humans became extinct leaving few signs of their pre-existence, and aliens visiting the earth discovered Mount Rushmore in largely the same condition as it is now? What about this rock formation would provide convincing evidence that it was due to a designing intelligence, not merely to wind and erosion? Would signs of an intelligent cause mean that the origin was God?

Two differing approaches~

Creationists start with the premise that God created, and deduct a Designer. ID inducts the arrangements of preexisting materials that point to an intelligent cause. Therefore, creationism and ID are quite different. Designed objects like Mount Rushmore exhibit characteristic patterns that point to a designing intelligence. In arguing the design of natural systems, Intelligent Design theorists are more modest than the design arguments of natural theology known as creationism, and a modest approach to new information is a common tact among the empirical sciences. A theologian might point to nature and say, “Clearly, the designer of this ecosystem prized variety over neatness.†A design theorist doing design-theoretic research on that ecosystem might reply, “Although that’s an intriguing theological possibility, as a design theorist I focus on the informational pathways capable of producing that variety.â€Â

Science is data, calculated and sifted, and slowly understood, no gambling is allowed.

What has kept ID outside the scientific mainstream since the rise of Darwinism has been the lack of precise methods for distinguishing intelligently caused objects from unintelligently caused ones. In studying and analyzing a system’s components, a design theorist may determine whether various natural structures are the product of chance, part of natural law, have an intelligent design, or some combination of the same. Chance and design are integrally different, because design must be specifically complex, while any complexity in chance is a matter of probability. An improbable event is not sufficient to eliminate chance; by flipping a coin long enough, one will witness a highly complex or improbable event. Sound reason attributes this to nothing other than chance. The important thing about specifications is that they are found objectively prearranged and not arbitrarily imposed on events after the fact. Accordingly, specified complexity is a reliable empirical marker of intelligence in the same way that fingerprints are a reliable empirical marker of a person’s presence. Further, design theorists argue that neither purely material factors nor random variants can adequately account for specified complexity.

What does ID claim?

Intelligent design’s central claim is that only intelligent causes adequately explain the complex, information-rich structures of biology and that these causes are empirically detectable. To say intelligent causes are empirically detectable is to say that well-defined methods exist, which when based on observable features of the world, can reliably distinguish intelligent causes from undirected natural causes. Many special sciences have already developed such methods for drawing this distinctionâ€â€notably forensic science, cryptography, and archeology. Essential to all these methods is the ability to eliminate chance and necessity.

Just how scientific is ID?

The advocates of ID base their arguments on biological and physical data generally accepted in science. They use the same kinds of analytical methods as other scientists. ID scientists “observe†the types of information produced when intelligent agents act, then “rigorously test†objects which have those same types of informational properties commonly known to come from intelligence. Last, they seek to establish what “scientific hypothesis†can be drawn from the evidence. ID has applied these scientific methods to detect design in four areas of nature thus far. These include; irreducibly complex biological structures, the complex and specified information content in DNA, the life-sustaining physical architecture of the universe, and the geologically rapid origin of biological diversity in the fossil record during the Cambrian explosion.

What written proof and acceptance does ID have, if any?

It has been claimed here that design theorists do not publish their work in appropriate peer-reviewed journals, a practice in scientific inquiry called formal disclosure. However, the scientists inquiring into intelligent design have published their work in a variety of appropriate technical venues, including peer-reviewed scientific journals, peer-reviewed scientific books (some in mainstream university presses), trade presses, peer-edited scientific anthologies, peer-edited scientific conference proceedings and peer-reviewed philosophy of science journals and books. A simple search for these documents may be found on the discovery.org website available to the public.

Every man who throws mud at another loses part of the ground he is standing on. :roll:

The result of blowing the creationist whistle has been wide spread defamation. The media and many within the respectable science community have succeeded in painting these scientists as God-pushers and barring their theory from scientific recognition in courts of law. The resulting intolerance and prejudice bans ID from ever being considered legally acceptable as a competing teleology for evolution in fields of science. This is blatant misuse of the separation of church and state clause. It is clear from U.S. Supreme Court precedents that the Constitution permits both the teaching of evolution as well as the teaching of scientific criticisms of prevailing scientific theories. The current legal judgment over whether competing teleology’s may be taught in the science classroom is not the most recent media-hyped case, Kitzmiller v. Dover, as it has not been appealed to any higher court authority than the case of Edwards v. Aguillard (1987).. In which the Court explicitly stated: “We do not imply that a legislature could never require that scientific critiques of prevailing scientific theories be taught.†Therefore as the law states, it is entirely legal to teach intelligent design alongside evolution in the classroom, but not in Dover.

Just how Darwinist was Darwin?

Finally, to the Darwinist; Darwin’s greatest achievement was to show how the structured complexity of organisms could be attained apart from a designing intelligence. ID therefore, directly challenges Darwinism and other naturalistic approaches to the origin of life. Yet, if Darwin had known what we now know about molecular biology with gigabytes of coded information in DNA, cells rife with tiny machines, and the highly specific structures of certain proteins, would he have found his own theory convincing? I believe he may have desired to find the fair results, his own writings confirm this. “A fair result can be obtained only by balancing the facts and arguments on both sides of each question.†(Charles Darwin) Certainly, his fair-minded approach is not only clinical and scientific, but would suppose questioning his own theories for the sake of balance in good science.

Adding my bucks worth to this pot. :-D bonnie
 
BobRyan said:
XolotlOfMictlan said:
The final proof really that ID is thinly veiled creationism is that a Christian, a Jew or a Muslim can support Evolution (and many, many do), but an atheist cannot support ID. No form of science picks who's allowed to support it based on their religion - Except Intelligent design.

All I see is atheists fearful that any amount of REAL science that is ALLOWED in the class room without being required to pander to the dogma of atheism -- is a threat to the atheist religion.

Hint: Christians Jews and Muslims have no "rational fear" of ID.

Why did you even bother to quote me when your reply doesn't even address my point?
Hint: Christians, Jews and Muslims don't have a rational fear of evolution either.
It's only the fundies that have a real problem accepting evidence.

The only thing athiest scientists are afraid of is exactly the same as what Christian scientists like DonExodus2 from Youtube (http://www.youtube.com/user/DonExodus2) are afraid of: That something that is patently not science can be taught in public schools under the veil of being science, polluting the fountain of knowledge with rubbish that is proven to be false.

We'd be equally scared if the Flat Earth Society started trying to get it's views taught in public schools. Their argument is roughly on par with yours and they have the additional skill of being able to create a reasonably convincing (albiet flawed) scientific argument (ie. One that involves facts and explanations of phenomena) as to why the earth is flat when challenged on it. No-one's managed to do that here.
Their major undoing is that they resort to the "IT'S A CONSPIRACY!!!" line to explain part of their case, and tying yourself to that is a loser right from the start which has never ever worked once. Hello Ben Stein!

I might add at this stage that my point still stands unchallenged:
XolotlOfMictlan said:
The final proof really that ID is thinly veiled creationism is that a Christian, a Jew or a Muslim can support Evolution (and many, many do), but an atheist cannot support ID. No form of science picks who's allowed to support it based on their religion - Except Intelligent design.

ID =/= science.
 
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