Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Is Joab good?

T. E. Smith

Romantic Rationalist
Member
Most Christians consider Joab to be a bad character. But it's a little more complicated.

For those who need a refresher: Joab was the son of David's sister (1 Chron. 2:15-16); David made him the army captain (e.g., 2 Sam. 8:16). He had two brothers: Abishai and Asahel. Asahel was killed by Abner; Joab then killed Abner (2 Sam. 2:13-3:27). Joab and his men killed David's rebel son Absalom during an attempted coup, against David's wishes (2 Sam. 18:1-33); the king grieves and Joab rebukes him. David replaced Joab with Amasa as commander, but Joab kills Amasa (2 Sam. 19:13; 20:8-13; 1 Kings 2:5). Finally, Joab offers his allegiance not to Solomon but to Adonijah, David's eldest living son (1 Kings 1:1-27). David had Solomon kill Joab; he ran into the Tabernacle, but was killed anyways.

Okay, not a favorable picture. But it needs to be balanced. Rabbinic literature is uniformly positive in its outlook. In the Mishnah, he is the ideal general, without whom David could not have succeeded. Rabbi Johanan informs us that Joab was not guilty of Abner's murder; rather, he brought him before the court, which in the gate of the city (Deut. 16:18) condemned Abner for murder of Asahel and then sent Joab to kill him. 2 Samuel 3:27 does say the killing was "to avenge the blood of his brother Asahel," but this could include a ruling by the Sanhedrin and not just personal revenge.

1 Kings 2:34 speaks of Joab's "house in the wilderness", taken by rabbis to mean that his house was generously open to everyone. Also, though Joab did rebuke David for mourning, David accepts the rebuke positively and follows Joab's advice, possibly indicating that David was wrong and Joab right. Though "the hearts of the men of Israel have gone out after Absalom" (2 Sam. 15:13), Joab remains on David's side.

Most importantly perhaps, in 2 Sam. 24, Joab struggled hard but vainly to get David to not conduct a wicked census: "May the LORD your God add to the people a hundred times as many as they are, while the eyes of my lord the king still see it, but why does my lord the king delight in this thing?" In 1 Chron. 21, we are told that "the king's command was abhorrent to Joab."

In rabbinic writings, we are told that Joab defended himself of Amasa's death because Amasa failed to execute David's order (see 2 Sam. 20:4-5). We are then told that Joab stated just before his death, "Let not Solomon condemn me to a double punishment; let him either kill me and take on himself the curses which his father uttered against me [ see 2 Sam. 3:29] or let me live and suffer from the curses only." Solomon took on himself the curses, which were fulfilled in his descendants.

The trouble is that the Torah does not judge him clearly either way, and no rabbinic statement here is necessarily inconsistent with the Torah. He was clearly a very successful commander, indicating either his wisdom or God's blessing of him, or both (either one being very positive). In light of all this, what do you all think about Joab?
 
Last edited:
Sigh. That's not what I mean. Say "faithful" if you wish. I mean, was he good/righteous/faithful like we might consider, say, David to be good/righteous/faithful?
If someone plans the death of one of his servants so that he can have his way with the now dead guy's wife, and you want to call that someone good/righteous/faithful, then know that it is you doing it, not "we".

I completely understand exactly what you are talking about. You want to talk about what is generally known as a "good person". I'm telling you there aren't any. Always trust what Jesus says over even your own understanding.
 
If someone plans the death of one of his servants so that he can have his way with the now dead guy's wife, and you want to call that someone good/righteous/faithful, then know that it is you doing it, not "we".

I completely understand exactly what you are talking about. You want to talk about what is generally known as a "good person". I'm telling you there aren't any. Always trust what Jesus says over even your own understanding.
Read 2 Samuel 22:25: "The Lord rewarded me according to my righteousness." - King David

Also, it's actually pretty easy to obey, according to Deuteronomy: "For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off" (Deut. 30:11).
 
Oh and also Genesis 6:9: "Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generation."
Luke 1:6: "And they were both righteous before God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and statutes of the Lord."
2 Peter 2:7-8: "If he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard)..."
Job 1:1: "There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job, and that man was blameless and upright, one who feared God and turned away from evil."
 
Yeah I generally don't do these conversation shifts like this. You were quite clear in your original post of what you meant.

If you want to discuss when God decrees someone righteous that is another matter entirely, but the label is for Him to apply, not you or me or anyone else, even a rabbi or any collection of rabbis.

David's level of righteousness was repaid when God killed his kid that he had with the murdered man's wife.
Lot got tanked and had sex with his daughters.
Job lived in constant fear of something happening to his children.
Actions of good people? No, but God can and does declare them righteous when He cleanses them.
Every single character that isn't Jesus that you can list from the Bible that has a righteous or blameless tag on them...has sinned.
 
Most Christians consider Joab to be a bad character. But it's a little more complicated.

For those who need a refresher: Joab was the son of David's sister (1 Chron. 2:15-16); David made him the army captain (e.g., 2 Sam. 8:16). He had two brothers: Abishai and Asahel. Asahel was killed by Abner; Joab then killed Abner (2 Sam. 2:13-3:27). Joab and his men killed David's rebel son Absalom during an attempted coup, against David's wishes (2 Sam. 18:1-33); the king grieves and Joab rebukes him. David replaced Joab with Amasa as commander, but Joab kills Amasa (2 Sam. 19:13; 20:8-13; 1 Kings 2:5). Finally, Joab offers his allegiance not to Solomon but to Adonijah, David's eldest living son (1 Kings 1:1-27). David had Solomon kill Joab; he ran into the Tabernacle, but was killed anyways.

Okay, not a favorable picture. But it needs to be balanced. Rabbinic literature is uniformly positive in its outlook. In the Mishnah, he is the ideal general, without whom David could not have succeeded. Rabbi Johanan informs us that Joab was not guilty of Abner's murder; rather, he brought him before the court, which in the gate of the city (Deut. 16:18) condemned Abner for murder of Asahel and then sent Joab to kill him. 2 Samuel 3:27 does say the killing was "to avenge the blood of his brother Asahel," but this could include a ruling by the Sanhedrin and not just personal revenge.

1 Kings 2:34 speaks of Joab's "house in the wilderness", taken by rabbis to mean that his house was generously open to everyone. Also, though Joab did rebuke David for mourning, David accepts the rebuke positively and follows Joab's advice, possibly indicating that David was wrong and Joab right. Though "the hearts of the men of Israel have gone out after Absalom" (2 Sam. 15:13), Joab remains on David's side.

Most importantly perhaps, in 2 Sam. 24, Joab struggled hard but vainly to get David to not conduct a wicked census: "May the LORD your God add to the people a hundred times as many as they are, while the eyes of my lord the king still see it, but why does my lord the king delight in this thing?" In 1 Chron. 21, we are told that "the king's command was abhorrent to Joab.
The trouble is that the Torah does not judge him clearly either way, and no rabbinic statement here is necessarily inconsistent with the Torah. He was clearly a very successful commander, indicating either his wisdom or God's blessing of him, or both (either one being very positive). In light of all this, what do you all think about Joab?
I don’t see Joan as a bad character. He stayed by Davids side, and gave him council in many situations. He was loyal.

The census David took was a violation of Torah. A good friend tells you when your doing something you shouldn’t be doing.

Joab has history, and knows the history of how Solomon was born, and what role he played in Davids relationship with Bathsheba. 1 Samuel 11:14-26

Just like David had an issue with Sauls relative Shemi, it appears Solomon took issue with Joab.

That being said, Solomon did much destruction and ruin to Israel, and I’m sure Joab, like he did with David voiced his concerns.
 
Back
Top