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Bible Study Is there a Hell?

E

evechot

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Millions of persons have been taught by their religions that hell is a place where people are tormented. No wonder that people who have been taught this often say that if hell is such a bad place they do not want to talk about it.
This raises the question: Did Almighty God create such a place of torment? Well, waht was God's view when the Israelites, following the example of peoples who lived nearby, began to burn their children it the fire? God explains in his word the Bible; Jeremiah 7:31 "They have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that had [not] commanded and that had [not] come up into my heart:.
Think about this. If the idea of roasting people in fire had [never] come into God's mind and heart, does it seem reasonable that he created a fiery hell for those who do not serve him?

would you put the hand of child over the fire of a stove to punish him? Of Course Not. If you who are imperfect would not do that, why would a Loving God do any less?
 
I just read "The Case for Faith" that delt with that topic. I highly recommend it.
 
I am new here so I hope nobody objects to me posting so soon on such a sesitive topic. Yes YHVH loves ALL His children, but He does give us freewill and if we choose separation then He will answer that prayer also.

Matthew 13:38-42 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. ...
 
I'm also new, but I have found a view that explains hell. Just to clarify, I didn't find this out myself, I found it on another website.

The last chapter of Malachi has some vital information about hell.

Malachi 4:1 "For look! The day is coming that is burning like a furnace, and all the proud ones and all those doing wickedness must become as stubble, and the day that is coming will certainly devour them, says the LORD of hosts, so that is will not leave them either root nor branch."

This passage says that the wicked will burn, but it says that they will just be destroyed.

Malachi 4:3 "And you people will certainly tread down the wicked ones for they will become as ashes under the soles of your feet."

So it seems here that the wicked will be destroyed and turned back into dust.

Hebrews 12:24 "For our God is a consuming fire."

And there it is. Hell is the wrath of God, and if you are wicked and do not pass judgement, He will destroy you. I highly doubt that He would let His creations suffer for eternity, because this is against the nature of a forever merciful and oft-loving God. However, God has (i think) said that He cannot be in the midst of sin, because He is perfect, so the solution that removes the sinner from God but doesn't result in eternal suffering is to simply destroy the body and the soul, and remove all traces of the sinner's existance.

This is the view that I believe
 
Evechot is exposing a doctrine that the churches have taught for centuries but which the Bible does not. At Jeremiah 19:4,5, God told the nation of Israel, that "they have forsaken me, and have estranged this place, and have burned incense in it unto other gods, ...they have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind."(King James Bible) Then later, at Jeremiah 32:35, God told the nation of Israel that "they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin."(King James Bible) How can God be spoken of tormenting individuals in "hell" when he himself said that this never "came into his mind" and called this despicable act an "abomination" or "outrage" ? (Encarta Dictionary)

To torment anyone is not loving, for any parent or person who does such a thing would be met with justice even by many of the world's judicial systems. God would be a hypocrite if he condemned the nation of Israel for their actions but punished people in a "hellfire". The apostle John wrote that "God is love".(1 John 4:8) The apostle Paul, while giving his defense before governor Felix, said that "there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous."(Acts 24:15) Hence, even those considered as "unrighteous"(Young's Bible, Weymouth's New Testament), "unjust"(King James Bible, Webster's Bible), "wicked"(International Standard Version, William's New Testament) will receive a resurrection from the dead, to be given an opportunity to please their Creator. The churches have distorted the meaning of "hell", thus causing many to believe in a religious teaching that defames God.

The word "hell" is used in the King James Version (as well as in the Catholic Douay Version and most older translations) to translate the Hebrew word she’ohl´ and the Greek word hai´des. In the King James Version the word “hell†is rendered from she’ohl´ 31 times and from hai´des 10 times. This version is not consistent, however, since she’ohl´ is also translated 31 times “grave†and 3 times “pit.†In the Douay Version she’ohl´ is rendered “hell†63 times, “pit†once, and “death†once.

It is, in fact, because of the way that the word “hell†is understood today that it is such an unsatisfactory translation of these original Bible words. Webster’s Third New International Dictionary, unabridged, under “Hell†says: “fr[om] . . . helan to conceal.†(This is also shown in MicroSoft Encarta Dictionary) The word “hell†thus originally conveyed no thought of heat or torment but simply of a ‘covered over or concealed place.’ In the old English dialect the expression “helling potatoes†meant, not to roast them, but simply to place the potatoes in the ground or in a cellar. Hence, as rendered in the King James Bible, Jonah, while in the belly of the fish, said: "Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God out of the fish's belly, and said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice."(Jonah 2:1,2) Jonah was "concealed" from everyone except God, but was not in a fiery place of torment.

The King James Bible, along with several others, have also rendered the Greek word Gehenna as "hell". At Matthew 10:28, Jesus shows that people are not tormented there, but rather destroyed, saying: " And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (Greek, ge´en·na)."(King James Bible) Though Jesus spoke of "fire", the Greek word he used, was not hai´des (Greek) but ge´en·na (Greek form of the Hebrew Geh Hin·nom´ ) or eternal destruction. This Greek word literally means "Valley of Hinnom", and was a deep, narrow valley, that lay to the S and SW of ancient Jerusalem and is the modern-day Wadi er-Rababi (Ge Ben Hinnom). No living persons were ever thrown there. The Bible "hell"(Greek, hai´des ) is the common grave of mankind, to be emptied of those imprisoned by it. However,the "everlasting fire" or Gehenna, means total destruction.(Matt 18:8,9; 25:41) This is divine justice.

Revelation 20:13, as rendered by the King James Bible, says that "the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell (Greek, hai´des )delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works." Thus, the Bible "hell", mankind's common grave, does not keep it's captives prisoner for all eternity, but releases them by means of a resurrection from the dead, whereas those "sent" to Gehenna never live again, but are dead forever.
 
I am pleased to see that a number of posters hold the view that the Scriptures do not teach that the lost are eternally tormented in hell-fire. I am not sure how the "eternal torment" position came into being, but I suggest that the evidence is pretty clear - the lost are indeed destroyed in the lake of fire - they are not preserved in an eternal state of suffering.

There are a wide range of arguments that can be deployed in defence of this "annihilation" position. Some of these include:

1. Frequent use of the metaphor of fire and burning in respect to the fate of the lost. And what does a fire do? It consumes away its fuel to nothing. Who has ever seen a fire which preserves its fuel. We need to respect the implications of this metaphor.

2. Abundant evidence that the words "forever" and "everlasting" are sometimes used in clearly hyperbolic senses. Such Biblical precedent undercuts the "eternal torment" implications of the very limited number of texts that support the "eternal torment" position.

3. Strong arguments can made that the "Lazarus and the Rich Man" account in Luke 16 is a parable that has nothing whatsoever to do with the state of affairs in the afterlife.

4. Incoherence of the idea that God's restored and redeemed world (Romans 8:18 and following) would somehow contain a "place" where sinners are being tormented in fire. This simply does not cohere with images of restoration, healing, and renewal that describe God's ultimate plans for the cosmos.
 
Nonetheless, it's a little hard to reconcile the idea of annihilation with many of the texts dealing not with an everlasting death, but rather an everlasting punishment.

Some texts to re-consider:

Daniel 12:1-2: Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

Matthew 25:45-46: Then He will answer them, saying, "Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me." And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

John 5: 28-29: Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs shall hear His voice, and shall come forth; those who did the good deeds, to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Drew, you said you were unsure "how the "eternal torment" position came into being". It was probably by just taking the Scriptures at their word; Scriptures such as

Revelations 20:10 "And the devil who deceieved them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

I know in these discussions of hell everyone points out that "hell" has some ambiguous definitions. However, I don't think there is any ambiguity to the definition of basanzio which means to torment, to torture, to vex with grievious pain; nor is there any ambiguity to aion which means forever.

I know it would be comforting to think that the unholy will simply be resurrected in order to receive their final death penalty, and that the eternal punishment and contempt means annilihation, but this isn't what the Scriptures teaches us will be the final judgment. The final judgment, the lake of fire, is a place of eternal torment, a place of basanzio eis aion aion.
 
Hi Handy:

I will respond to one of the "easy" ones in this post. All the other texts can be shown to not be evidence for eternal torment as well - perhaps if time permits, I will address these later.

Please do not misunderstand me. I am not suggesting that some of the texts are not consistent with an "eternal torment" position. However, the fact that they can be read that way does not mean that they cannot be read another way. And I think it is clear that many that are, in and of themselves, ambiguous, are read as supporting eternal torment only because people bring such a belief to the text.

Lets take Jesus' statement from Matthew 25:

And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life

If the text said something like "eternal punishing", then your postion would indeed be strong. But the text, as written is entirely consistent with an annihilation perspective. What is the punishment for sin? It is death (Romans 6:23), not everlasting life in torment. And how would one describe a state of affairs where the state of non-existence is never to be reversed by God? We would describe it as eternal. So it is entirely coherent to read Jesus as saying the following in Matthew 25 about the lost: "these will be annihilated in the lake of fire and their state of non-existence - which is their punishment - will last forever. I will not reverse it, I will never re-constitute them to life - in this sense, the punsishment is eternal."

People come to this text already believing that the punishment is the torment, and not death as Romans 6:23 teaches. So naturally, they conclude that the torment (the punishment) will indeed last forever. But Romans 6:23 shows that the essence of punishment is in fact death - non-existence, and not torment. How does the "eternal torment" supporter escape the implications of this? They redefine "death" to mean to mean a conscious state of separation from God.

With this kind of reworking of the meaning of words, any position can be substantiated.
 
I'll await your explanation of why basanzio eis aion aion doesn't mean torment for ever and ever.
 
handy said:
Nonetheless, it's a little hard to reconcile the idea of annihilation with many of the texts dealing not with an everlasting death, but rather an everlasting punishment.

Some texts to re-consider:

Daniel 12:1-2: Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

Matthew 25:45-46: Then He will answer them, saying, "Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me." And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

John 5: 28-29: Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs shall hear His voice, and shall come forth; those who did the good deeds, to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Drew, you said you were unsure "how the "eternal torment" position came into being". It was probably by just taking the Scriptures at their word; Scriptures such as

Revelations 20:10 "And the devil who deceieved them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

I know in these discussions of hell everyone points out that "hell" has some ambiguous definitions. However, I don't think there is any ambiguity to the definition of basanzio which means to torment, to torture, to vex with grievious pain; nor is there any ambiguity to aion which means forever.

I know it would be comforting to think that the unholy will simply be resurrected in order to receive their final death penalty, and that the eternal punishment and contempt means annilihation, but this isn't what the Scriptures teaches us will be the final judgment. The final judgment, the lake of fire, is a place of eternal torment, a place of basanzio eis aion aion.
Kinda late getting in on this. To me there is no forever punishment of anguish
It is sad to note, but nevertheless true, that most Christians do not realize there are very dramatic differences in translation from one Bible to another. We have heard so often that the "inspired" or "inerrant" Word of God is basically the same in all translations. This is just not true. But one will not see this unless they place several side by side and make some comparisons. Listed below are a few translations which we will compare to the King James Bible on the verse Matthew 26:46.
Concerning the duration of chastening, Matt. 25:46 says (KJV),
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal."
Scarlett's New Testament written in 1792 has "aeonian punishment" in place to "everlasting punishment."
"And these will go away into aeonian punishment: but the righteous into aeonian life."
The New Covenant by Dr. J.W. Hanson written in 1884 renders Matt. 25:46:
"And these shall go away into aeonian chastisement, and the just into aeonian life."
Young's Literal Translation first published in 1898 and reprinted many times since uses the following words:
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."

http://www.bestbiblestudy.org/justice.html
 
notaxbill said:
Kinda late getting in on this. To me there is no forever punishment of anguish
It is sad to note, but nevertheless true, that most Christians do not realize there are very dramatic differences in translation from one Bible to another. We have heard so often that the "inspired" or "inerrant" Word of God is basically the same in all translations. This is just not true. But one will not see this unless they place several side by side and make some comparisons. Listed below are a few translations which we will compare to the King James Bible on the verse Matthew 26:46.
Concerning the duration of chastening, Matt. 25:46 says (KJV),
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal."
Scarlett's New Testament written in 1792 has "aeonian punishment" in place to "everlasting punishment."
"And these will go away into aeonian punishment: but the righteous into aeonian life."
The New Covenant by Dr. J.W. Hanson written in 1884 renders Matt. 25:46:
"And these shall go away into aeonian chastisement, and the just into aeonian life."
Young's Literal Translation first published in 1898 and reprinted many times since uses the following words:
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."

http://www.bestbiblestudy.org/justice.html

Notaxbill, Hi, glad to see you and glad you added your thoughts to the thread.

I'm not sure what your 'side by side' comparision shows. I'm sure that you realize that aeonian means the same as "forever and ever", or as KJV puts it "everlasting". Perhaps you could explain a bit further. I would also like your explanation of what basanzio eis aion aion means if not "torment forever and ever".
 
kenan said:
it could just refer to being without Jesus for eternity

But, again everyone, basanzio means torment. Death, when defined by annihilation, means nothingness. There would be no torment in nothingness. Where does the torment come in?

This all begs the question: If those that die outside of Christ are annihilated, then why didn't Christ simply say so? Why all the 'vague' threats of eternal punishment. Most folks would think that annihilation as opposed to eternal life with God to be scary enough, when properly understood. But, Jesus used the imagery and language understood by those who stood there listening to Him preach of a place in which the fires and stench and rotteness goes on and on and on.
 
As of now notaxbill is nomore I will be bacord.

Notaxbill is for political forums and was given to me by friends.

Now for your studying pleasure

http://www.bestbiblestudy.org/eon.html

The argument against eon times is that means there is no life eternal.
This is a big misunderstanding as the above link I hope will state sufficiently.

I will post more latter of what I believe part of this means.
The above is an indepth read with scriptures.
 
I will read over it, it looks very interesting. Then I'll await your further posts.

I want everyone to understand that I'm not all wrapped up in a wrathful god cause I just want to see him stick it to good but misguided folks.

I am wrapped up however, in applying Biblical truth to what we believe about God.

As of now, unless bacord's link proves otherwise, I believe the Scriptures to teach, rather clearly, that there is eternal torment for those who reject God. I also believe that the Scriptures teach, rather clearly, that God is love. So, as of now, I have to define what love is, not on the basis of warm fuzzy kitties and mom and apple pie, but to take into account that godly love also can include torment for those who reject it.
 
Is our opinion slanted here? I've seen several comments about God eternally tormenting...I don't believe that to be the case. At the judgment, God will separate the good seed from the bad. Those that were given the chance but opted to live a life of denial and self-worship are essentially turned over to their own actions...they are forever without God and left to have their lot cast with Satan and his minions. I see God calling the final roll call here, but I don't see him making the decision to eternally do anything to anyone. What I mean is that our choice (assuming we're speaking of from a free will perspective) to follow Christ and accept the gift of grace punches the metaphorical ticket to heaven, while denial is the action which causes God to send us down "Door number 2" which leads to whatever is awaiting in the lake of fire.

While I've not added anything to the debate of the eternality of the fire, I think that the God whom we worship is less culpable for the "torment" which we would have freely chosen to endure than we have set forth in this thread. It is our own reaction to His offer of salvation which forces the hand of the righteous/sinless/supreme judge who is God, after all, let's remember that by His own divine nature He can have no part in sin, nor can sin enter into the perfection of the restored/post-rapture existence.

Ty.
 
God's justice requires that those, who according to their wish, disregards his principles and laws, are to be destroyed. Jesus, at Matthew 25, shows the difference between those who assist his spiritual "brothers" while on the earth saying: "‘Truly I say to you, To the extent that you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’(Matt 25:40) and those who were not willing, saying: "‘Truly I say to you, To the extent that you did not do it to one of these least ones, you did not do it to me.’ And these will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life.â€Â(Matt 25:45,46)

The interlinear rendering of Matthew 25:46 in The Emphatic Diaglott reads: "And shall go away these into a cutting-off everlasting; the and just ones into life everlasting." The Greek-English interlinear reading of the Greek master text by Cambridge University scholars B.F. Westcott and F.J.A. Hort,The New Testament in the Original Greek, reads: "And will go off these into lopping off everlasting, the but righteous (ones) into life everlasting."

Thus, one can either gain life everlasting under God's rulership by "doing the will of (the) Father"(Matt 7:21), or be everlastingly cut off in death. The Greek expression of "kai basanisthesontai hemeras kai nuktos eis tous aion aston aionon" at Revelation 20:10, and rendered as "and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."(King James Bible) does not mean literal torment. How do we know this ? One is that the book of Revelation was written in "signs".(Rev 1:1) Hence, just as the "wild beast" is not literal nor the the "false prophet", so likewise is the word "torment". Satan the Devil, along with the "wild beast" and "false prophet" are to be cast into the "lake of fire". The "lake of fire" has already been revealed as the "second death", not torment. These thus are cast into this "lake of fire", meaning everlasting death or "cutting-off".

At Matthew 18:34, the jailers, according to the rendering of several Bibles, are called "tormentors", for the King James Bible reads: "And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors (Greek basanízo), till he should pay all that was due unto him." This verb is derived from the Greek noun básanos, which was a Lydian stone by which gold was tried. When pure gold was rubbed against it it left a yellow streak. Hence básanos came to mean “touchstoneâ€Â, and then “examination, test, trial of genuinenessâ€Â, and, when applied to humans under examination, “inquiry by torture,†and then just “torture, torment†from various causes. Because in ancient times the prison keepers or jailers were the ones to apply this torture of prisoners under examination, the jailers came to be called basanistés, as at Matthew 18:34.
 
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