Jesus Ain't So Good ! So How Could He Be God?

[Consecrated Life]

Don't think I know how to reply to this Obfuscation. All I was trying to show is that people like the rich young ruler will run to anybody ,,,,,

Jesus was not like "ANYBODY"
Not like ANYBODY who came before Him or ANYBODY who has come since .
The Word of God reveals that even those who hated Him and swore to murder Him knew He was not like "ANYBODY"

John 7:44- 46
And some of them would have taken him; but no man laid hands on him.
Then came the officers to the chief priests and Pharisees; and they said unto them, Why have ye not brought him?
The officers answered, Never A man spake like this man.
Mark 15:39
And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Re:

Jesus Ain't So Good ! So How Could He Be God?​

Jesus says that "there is none good but one, that is, God " and God alone.

Mar 10:18
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

So what was Jesus purposely telling us about Himself in this proclamation ?

In neither verse is Jesus saying he is not good although that is the implication. So let's assume the implication is true.

Long answer: Study the "hypostatic union" and you might be better informed.

Short Answer:
What does "good" mean: Goodness in creatures can only be derived because a creature being made of nothing, and therefore cannot be good, but by participation from another and thus the only source of goodness is God and no individual is good in themself. That being said...
Jesus is both the son of man and the Son of God; He is the God-man. Christ has two natures: divine and human.
For example: His divine nature cannot die while his human nature can. His divine nature is everywhere while his human nature in confined in space and time. When Christ speaks he can speak of his human nature or his divine nature.

Anything that is true of the human or the divine nature is true of the person of Christ. Thus Jesus can say, “Before Abraham was, I am” (John 8:28). He does not say, “Before Abraham was, my divine nature existed,” because He is free to talk about anything done by His divine nature alone or His human nature alone as something that He did as in Luke 2:11 “For to you is born this day [human nature] in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.” Author unknown

Aside: of course many abuse Christ's statements about his two natures to portend ideas like: Christ is not God ... or as this thread suggests: Christ is not good.

 

[JLB]

God .

John 14:9
Jesus saith unto him..... he that hath seen me hath seen the Father.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Re:

Jesus Ain't So Good ! So How Could He Be God?​

In neither verse is Jesus saying he is not good although that is the implication. So let's assume the implication is true.

Every time I read of this encounter Jesus had with the young man I can't help thinking that Jesus is speaking as much for the benefit of the disciples & the crowd that is around them as He is for the young man .
It is obvious to me from some of the comments in this thread that the context in which Jesus makes this statement is given 0% consideration.
That context from which He is speaking is as one who is commonly known by one and all to have restored sight to the blind, hearing to the deaf, is regarded by King Herod to be John the Baptist come back from the dead, has raised Jarius's daughter from the dead, has fed the 5000 with a couple of fish, has caused two thousand swine to throw themselves into the sea rather than be indwelt by the Legion of demons He has commanded to be gone from a possessed man.
Has commanded even the elements of the earth to obey Him:

Mar 4:41
And they feared exceedingly, and said one to another, What manner of man is this, that even the wind and the sea obey him?

For me this Almighty resume that Jesus was established throughout the land shines a completely different light on His statement that would not exist otherwise.
For me , It is His known history that is the key that gives insight to His meaning .
I also can't help thinking that Christ had a little bit of wry smile on His face when He said :
Mar 10:18
Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

 

[Abby-Joy]

Thank You WalterandDebbie.,
Allow me to drill down just a little deeper into your answer.
So is your understanding that Jesus was saying about Himself that :
1.) He was not "good" ?
or
2.) He was not "God" ?
or
3.) He is None of the above ?

Mar 10:18
.... Why callest thou me good?

He didn't say either. He didn't say He wasn't good. Nor did He say He wasn't God. He simply asked, "Why do you call me good?" See, most people didn't believe Jesus was God, and Jesus was getting to the heart of what this young man believed about Him by asking a question.

 

[Consecrated Life]

He didn't say either. He didn't say He wasn't good. Nor did He say He wasn't God. He simply asked, "Why do you call me good?" See, most people didn't believe Jesus was God, and Jesus was getting to the heart of what this young man believed about Him by asking a question.

Interesting then isn't it that the young man never answered Jesus's question , "Why callest thou me good" ?
He seems like a pretty impulsive young man .
Strange that he completely neglected to follow up Jesus's question with an answer .

 

[Runningman]

First things first.
Tell me why you believe that Jesus didn't literally mean that He existed before Abraham did ?

Jhn 8:58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

In John 8:56, Jesus said, "Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see My day. He saw it and was glad.” How did Abraham know about Jesus' day? By faith. He knew about it in the same way Hebrews 11:10 says Abraham was looking forward to a city without foundations, architected by God.

Abraham knew about Jesus' day because God had told him about it, and he believed it by faith. Though Abraham could not literally see the Jesus' day, he still believed it. God had plans for Jesus' coming before Abraham was alive. So in God's plan, Jesus existed even before Abraham. Jesus being in God's plan has been in place long before Abraham was.

 

[Consecrated Life]

In John 8:56, Jesus said, "Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see My day. He saw it and was glad.” How did Abraham know about Jesus' day? By faith. He knew about it in the same way Hebrews 11:10 says Abraham was looking forward to a city without foundations, architected by God.

Abraham knew about Jesus' day because God had told him about it, and he believed it by faith. Though Abraham could not literally see the Jesus' day, he still believed it. God had plans for Jesus' coming before Abraham was alive. So in God's plan, Jesus existed even before Abraham. Jesus being in God's plan has been in place long before Abraham was.

I see.
So Jesus was a just a little confused in His detailing His pre-planned existence .
A more accurate description by Jesus then would be:

John 8:58
"Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I was pre-planned "

 

[Runningman]

I see.
So Jesus was a just a little confused in His detailing His pre-planned existence .
A more accurate description by Jesus then would be:

John 8:58
"Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I was pre-planned "

That seems to be the case, yes. We use the Bible's internal witness to interpret it. If we want to have a pre-existence of Jesus it would require him saying or doing anything pre-existence. Please quote the verse where Jesus said or did anything before he was born.

 

[Consecrated Life]

That seems to be the case, yes. We use the Bible's internal witness to interpret it. If we want to have a pre-existence of Jesus it would require him saying or doing anything pre-existence. Please quote the verse where Jesus said or did anything before he was born.

Yes . let's move on.
When Jesus claims:

Luke 10:18
"And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven."

Jesus could not have meant that He literally saw Satan's fall.
Jesus's well established custom of purposely deceptive phrasing being what it is .
He is quite the sly & slippery fellow isn't He ?

 

[Runningman]

Yes . let's move on.
When Jesus claims:

Luke 10:18
"And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven."

Jesus could not have meant that He literally saw Satan's fall.
Jesus's well established custom of purposely deceptive phrasing being what it is .
He is quite the sly & slippery fellow isn't He ?

Why is your default position that, if not literal, then Jesus is lying? Is it possible Jesus had a vision? Yes?

Again, please quote something that sets Jesus in the Old Testament saying or doing anything.

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Jesus says that "there is none good but one, that is, God " and God alone.

Mar 10:18
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

So what was Jesus purposely telling us about Himself in this proclamation ?

Hello Consecrated Life, Reading a little further: The Sanhedrin Tries Jesus

Mark 14:53-65​

53 And they led Jesus away to the high priest: and with him were assembled all the chief priests and the elders and the scribes.​

54 And Peter followed him afar off, even into the palace of the high priest: and he sat with the servants, and warmed himself at the fire.
55 And the chief priests and all the council sought for witness against Jesus to put him to death; and found none.

56 For many bare false witness against him, but their witness agreed not together.
57 And there arose certain, and bare false witness against him, saying,
58 We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.
59 But neither so did their witness agree together.

60 And the high priest stood up in the midst, and asked Jesus, saying, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?
61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

63 Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witnesses?
64 Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death.
65 And some began to spit on him, and to cover his face, and to buffet him, and to say unto him, Prophesy: and the servants did strike him with the palms of their hands.
Read full chapter

John 10:22-42​

​

King James Version​

​

The Opposition At The Feast Of Dedication In Jerusalem​

22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.
23 And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch.
24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

30 I and my Father are one.

31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
39 Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,
40 And went away again beyond Jordan into the place where John at first baptized; and there he abode.
41 And many resorted unto him, and said, John did no miracle: but all things that John spake of this man were true.
42 And many believed on him there.
Read full chapter

John 8

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Read full chapter

Love, Walter

 

[Consecrated Life]

Yes . let's move on.
When Jesus claims:

Luke 10:18
"And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven."

Jesus could not have meant that He literally saw Satan's fall.
Jesus's well established custom of purposely deceptive phrasing being what it is .
He is quite the sly & slippery fellow isn't He ?

Why is your default position that, if not literal, then Jesus is lying? Is it possible Jesus had a vision? Yes?

I can name many publicly well known & respected Christian expositors /authors who will tell you that Jesus is literally saying He saw Satan's fall.

Luke 10:18
"And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Yet there is no well known respected Christian Expositor or author who has ever lived that you can name who agrees with you that Jesus is not speaking literally about seeing Satan's fall.
None !
And you can't name one if your life depended on it .
I'm just curious , why do you think that is ?

 

[Runningman]

I can name many publicly well known & respected Christian expositors /authors who will tell you that Jesus is literally saying He saw Satan's fall.

Luke 10:18
"And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Yet there is no well known respected Christian Expositor or author who has ever lived that you can name who agrees with you that Jesus is not speaking literally about seeing Satan's fall.
None !
And you can't name one if your life depended on it .
I'm just curious , why do you think that is ?

Luke 10:18 isn't saying that Jesus existed in the beginning and saw Satan fall. Indeed, there was a war in heaven in the beginning.

However, if you you will look closely at Revelation 121:-7 you'll observe that there are two different wars. The first war is in Revelation 12:1-4 in which Satan "swept his tail" taking 1/3rd of the angels with him to earth. This is why demonic possession and oppression happens sometimes. However, this didn't exclude Satan himself from going back to heaven at this point, hence he is the "prince of the air.

Now if you will look at Revelation 12:7, you will see a different war in heaven, with the Satan back in heaven, this time fighting with Michael the angel. By verse, 8 it says of Satan "...no longer was any place found in heaven for him and his angels." Then in verse 9 Satan is "...hurled to Earth. " This is a future event in which Satan "falls like lightning from heaven." After Satan falls to earth like lightning is when the future Great Tribulation begins. You can read about it in Revelation 13.

So when Jesus said, "I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven." He's referring to a future event. Satan hasn't been completely expelled from heaven yet. Hence you will read stuff like Job 1 & 2 where Satan goes to heaven to talk to God sometimes, particularly in order to accuse people before the throne of God.


Sorry for the long post, but this was necessary to really lay the foundation so the context of Luke 10 can be understood correctly.

All of that being said, Jesus is referring to a vision in Luke 10:18; Satan's fall hasn't literally happened yet.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Luke 10:18 isn't saying that Jesus existed in the beginning and saw Satan fall. Indeed, there was a war in heaven in the beginning.

However, if you you will look closely at Revelation 121:-7 you'll observe that there are two different wars. The first war is in Revelation 12:1-4 in which Satan "swept his tail" taking 1/3rd of the angels with him to earth. This is why demonic possession and oppression happens sometimes. However, this didn't exclude Satan himself from going back to heaven at this point, hence he is the "prince of the air.

Now if you will look at Revelation 12:7, you will see a different war in heaven, with the Satan back in heaven, this time fighting with Michael the angel. By verse, 8 it says of Satan "...no longer was any place found in heaven for him and his angels." Then in verse 9 Satan is "...hurled to Earth. " This is a future event in which Satan "falls like lightning from heaven." After Satan falls to earth like lightning is when the future Great Tribulation begins. You can read about it in Revelation 13.

So when Jesus said, "I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven." He's referring to a future event. Satan hasn't been completely expelled from heaven yet. Hence you will read stuff like Job 1 & 2 where Satan goes to heaven to talk to God sometimes, particularly in order to accuse people before the throne of God.


Sorry for the long post, but this was necessary to really lay the foundation so the context of Luke 10 can be understood correctly.

All of that being said, Jesus is referring to a vision in Luke 10:18; Satan's fall hasn't literally happened yet.

I can name several well known Christian speakers and writers who say that Jesus is saying He literally saw Satan's fall.
But you cannot name any well known Christian Minister , writer, speaker that has ever lived who agrees with your view .
None !
Why do you think that is ?
Does the church you attend share this view you have of Luke 10:18 ?

 

[Runningman]

I can name several well known Christian speakers and writers who say that Jesus is saying He literally saw Satan's fall.
But you cannot name any well known Christian Minister , writer, speaker that has ever lived who agrees with your view .
None !
Why do you think that is ?
Does the church you attend share this view you have of Luke 10:18 ?

The only commentators and scholars who would agree with your position are Trinitarian. You don't cross me as a Trinitarian. However, yes there are commentators who do agree with what the Bible says regarding Jesus' vision of Satan falling. I just showed you the scripture from Revelation 12. Commentary is useless without foundation. Where did Jesus pre-exist saying or doing anything in the Old Testament?

 

[Consecrated Life]

The only commentators and scholars who would agree with your position are Trinitarian. You don't cross me as a Trinitarian. However, yes there are commentators who do agree with what the Bible says regarding Jesus' vision of Satan falling. I just showed you the scripture from Revelation 12. Commentary is useless without foundation. Where did Jesus pre-exist saying or doing anything in the Old Testament?

Good .
Let's each Name a well known Christian Author , speaker, pastor alive or dead who agrees with our differing view as to whether scripture says Jesus literally saw Satan's fall .
I'll start by naming Billy Graham .
Your turn ?

 

[GodsGrace]

None according to scripture.

Jesus was tempted in every way yet without sin. Was God tempted to sin in every way?


I never said that nor do I believe it's inferred.

Here's what was said in post no. 24:

I can lend some perspective on this. When Jesus referred to God as the only one who alone is good, Jesus is referring to objective goodness, not that others can't be good in their own sense. "God is light and in Him is no darkness." Jesus can be tempted to sin while God can't be tempted nor can God sin.

When did Jesus sin?
If He never sinned, then, by your own admission, He is God.


The above might be confusing, so....
YOU said that Jesus NEVER sinned.
YOU said that God cannot sin.

Thus,,,,Jesus is God.

And, in fact, you'd be right.

ONLY GOD CANNOT SIN.
JESUS NEVER SINNED.
JESUS IS GOD.

 

[Runningman]

Good .
Let's each Name a well known Christian Author , speaker, pastor alive or dead who agrees with our differing view as to whether scripture says Jesus literally saw Satan's fall .
I'll start by naming Billy Graham .
Your turn ?

Who is "well-known" isn't necessarily a good guide for what makes a commentary credible. There are a lot of many well-known commentaries that don't agree with your interpretation of Luke 10:18. I'll list a few below:

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Pulpit Commentary

I kept reading, but no need to make an exhaustive list. Actually seems your interpretation is a minority opinion even among Trinitarian commentators.

Now let's get back to what we had already been discussing about the Bible: Where did Jesus pre-exist saying or doing anything in the Old Testament?

 

[Runningman]

Here's what was said in post no. 24:

When did Jesus sin?
If He never sinned, then, by your own admission, He is God.


The above might be confusing, so....
YOU said that Jesus NEVER sinned.
YOU said that God cannot sin.

Thus,,,,Jesus is God.

And, in fact, you'd be right.

ONLY GOD CANNOT SIN.
JESUS NEVER SINNED.
JESUS IS GOD.

You seem to be having a conversation with me about something I never said nor agree with. Not sinning does not make someone God. What makes someone God is their inability to sin or be tempted by sin. That's not Jesus.