Jesus, follower of John the Baptist

[AHIMSA]

This is an offshoot from another thread:

Many historians and scholars today believe that Jesus was originally a disciple and member of the Baptist's movement. There are very probable grounds for asserting this.

Now most here will use the gospels as their evidence. However the gospels all differ on their portrait of John the Baptist. When we investigate these differences, we see that there is a substantial "embarassment" surrounding the presence of John and that its more than a "difference of perspective.

Firstly, it should be noted that both Jesus and John had problems with the pharisees, both preached a message of repentance in the face of the coming Kingdom of God and their activities both lead to execution.

Beginning with the gospel of Mark. We need to imagine, for a brief moment, that Mark is the only gospel and that we dont have any other gospels. In this gospel Jesus is baptized by John, no questions asked. John does not recognize Jesus as the Christ, and only Jesus sees the sign from heaven. In this gospel, Jesus stands in line waiting to be baptized by a prophet that preaches repetence in baptism and the coming of God's kingdom, just as though he were a sinner like everyone else. Jesus obviously has a profound spiritual experience instigated by the baptism and retreats into the desert. Now, baptism by John was the sign that a person was his follower and that they believed in his message. Note, significantly, that Jesus only begins his ministry after John has been placed in prison...as though he felt he was continuing the message in John's name.

Now there are obvious questions why the gospel writers would not want Jesus to be a follower of John the Baptist. It makes Jesus look smaller if he was, at some point, following someone. Anything that makes Jesus looks secondary is problematic to many believers. Mark, though not overtly saying Jesus followed John, certainly gives us a hint.

Many Christians had a problem with Jesus being baptized by John. People are baptized by their spiritual superiors and teachers. They started to wonder why Jesus was baptized and not the other way around, why wasn't Jesus, the Messiah, baptizing John! This is exactly how Matthew approaches the issue. Being the gospel written after Mark, he changes Mark's baptismal account which makes Jesus look subordinate. In Mattew, contrary to Mark, John knows Jesus is the Christ and says "why is it not you baptising me?". This is clearly an addition to the matieral.

Luke further subordinates John's status, in Luke, the third gospel written, John becomes the cousin of Jesus, the only gospel that records this.

Lastly, when we turn to the gospel of John, Jesus' baptism is not even narrated. The Baptist, whose speaking style is identical to the author of the gospel, proclaims Jesus the Lamb of God in a language of light verses darkness and encourages his followers to follow Jesus.

The obvious question that arises is, if John knew Jesus was the Christ when he baptized him, why did he later send disciples of his to Jesus to question him if he was indeed the Christ!? It doesn't make sense. He wouldn't need to ask the question if he knew Jesus was the Christ when he baptized him. If we stick to the model of "the baptismal embarassment" it is easily explained. The gospel authors were trying to minimize the presence of the Baptist by changing and eventually not even narrating Jesus's baptism.

Again, note that in the synoptics, Jesus only begins his ministry after his baptism and after John is placed in prison. He is initiated into John's movement, then after John is imprisoned, he carries on John's mission before it is transformed by his own unique contributions and ideas.

Of course, everyone will say each gospel is trying to show a "different perspective". These differences, however, are far too easily explained by the "baptismal embarassment" model. It explains each alteration of the material by the authors after Mark. Secondly, the differences are not simply different, but evolutionary in nature. John is successively minimalized by each successive author. Only the baptismal model explains this.

If Jesus wasn't initially a disciple of John, then why are the authors threatened by his presence? Why was Jesus baptized by John at all? Why did the authors feel the need to rework this material three times until John does little more than proclaim his inferiority, encourage his followers to follow Jesus and proclaim him the Lamb of God (when clearly, he didnt know Jesus was the Christ until his disciples asked him)?

 

[stranger]

Hi Ahimsa

Just as a resevoir is of little use when the whole countryside is flooded, scriptures are of little use to the illumined man or woman who sees the Lord everywhere.

As a matter of interest what experience or knowledge have you obtained that makes you the illumined man who sees the Lord everywhere?

And who is the Lord that you see everywhere?

If the scriptures are of little use why are you interested in Jesus' baptism by John?

In Christ: stranger

 

[Quath]

I have come to the same conclusion as well about Jesus. One pattern I notice is that earlier stories about Jesus are more mundane, less symbolic, less anti-semitic and have fewer miracles. As the stories are told later in time, Jesus does a lot more stuff that should have been recorded by Mark. This stuff is easily explained by looking at how urban legends spread and how word of mouth can distort messages.

A secular look at Jesus in history reveals a man who was more modern than some of his peers, but who was just a man nonetheless. If someone writes about David Koresh being the messiah in 20 years from now, we would have an analogy.

So this type of analysis is interesting because you can begin to trace a religion from its initial stage and see how it changes with time. From a secual point of view, Jesus became another follower of John. Jesus tried to carry forth his message. One important part of John's message was that God was coming back very soon to re-establish his kingdom on Earth. There would be the four beasts that rule and then the Son of Man would judge people worthy enough to enter the new kingdom.

Jesus believed that God may grant him the title of Son of Man (probably mentionied in secret with his core group). Jesus goes to Jeresulem. Maybe Judas got too loud with Jesus's possibly being the Son of Man. Pilate and the head Jews get word of this. Pilate finds out that Jesus is advocating the overthrow of the government and crucifies him as an insurgent. The head Jews probably did not protest too much, but any conversations were made up because none of Jesus's foillowers were there to listen.

Jesus died and was thrown into a mass grave. Due to poor communication, they thought he would be put into a tomb. They do not find him in this tomb and assume he rose from the dead.

They assume that God really did promote him to be the Son of Man. They also believe that this first resurrection is a sign of all the future resurrections to come as God comes to set up his kingdom.

As time passes and Jesus is found to be wrong that the second coming would be withing 30 years, people start to change the message as the relgion forms. The religion changes from what Jesus taught to who Jesus was.

Anyway, that is a secular viewpoint. I doubt a Christian will entertain the possibility that this is true.

 

[stranger]

Jesus submitted unto John's baptism of repentence - I love this paradox. If I was there at the time I would too.

Seasons greetings gentlemen.

In Christ: stranger

 

[AHIMSA]

Stranger,

That doesn't really confront the argument I put forward. The fact is that the gospels clearly evolve their presentation of John the Baptist in a way that consistently and successively represses his importance outside of Jesus.

Why would Jesus be baptized by an apocalyptic prophet who baptized sinners into repentence? Why would the gospel authors feel the need to minimize this?

Replies that confront the points of my argument are what is needed.

 

[stranger]

Ahimsa,

My apologies - I was sidetracked by your postscript. . . .

In Christ: stranger

 

[Solo]

1 Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God. 2 Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD'S hand double for all her sins. 3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. 4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain: 5 And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it. 6 The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field: 7 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the LORD bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass. 8 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever. Isaiah 40:1-8

1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, 2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. 3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. 4 And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey. 5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, 6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins. 7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: 9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. 10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: 12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. 13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. 14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Matthew 3:1-17

Isaiah prophesied that John the Baptist would prepare the way of JEHOVAH GOD making straight his paths. He did just that for JEHOVAH GOD, Jesus Christ. John the Baptist was a servant of JEHOVAH GOD, and according to Jesus Christ, no greater man had been born of woman than John; yet he (as a man only) would be the least in the Kingdom of God.

John recognized that he was a servant of Jesus Christ as he said to Jesus, "I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?" John recognized that his baptism was only with water, but that Jesus was mightier than him and was baptizing with the Holy Spirit. John told these folks that he was not even worthy enough to carry Jesus' shoes.

Jesus replied to John, "Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness."

All four gospels record John the Baptist as being the fulfilled prophesy of Isaiah 40, one crying in the wilderness preparing the way and making the path straight for JEHOVAH GOD, Jesus Christ. After John the Baptist had fulfilled the prophesy of Isaiah, his time on earth was done. He was murdered shortly after.

Jesus Christ is by far the focal point of the four gospels, not John the Baptist. John the Baptist was the voice crying in the wilderness, a servant to the one JEHOVAH GOD of whom he would baptize fulfilling all righteousness.

 

[PDoug]

AHIMSA,

If the only evidence that Jesus was a follower of John the Baptist, and was inferior to him, was the fact that Jesus was baptized by John, what you are putting forward is very thin. You can tell the greatness of a man by his actions first, and his words second. Christ was good, and performed many miracles, and told far more profound revelations than John the Baptist. This alone confirms that Jesus was greater than John. As for the fact that Jesus was baptized by John: how does that prove that John was greater than Jesus? Don’t you know that baptism is merely an outward show of the cleansing of someone’s soul? There is nothing in and of itself sacred of the baptismal rite. Christ’s life before the baptism bears evidence that his soul was pure long before John performed the rite.

The only thing we can infer from John’s baptism of Jesus, is the fact that Jesus endorsed John and his rite as being sound. Also, there is no indication that John went much further in his ministry than the message of repentance, and foresight of things to come. Jesus however went extremely deep by delving into many mysteries – as evidenced by his miraculous works, and the many things he said. This is consistent with the prophecy that John’s purpose was to prepare the way for Jesus: for people must first be convinced of elementary salvation, before they can be convinced of the deep things of God.

As for John at a later point having doubts about Jesus: Jesus’ actions and words bore witness of who he was, and the fact that John had doubts at some later point, spoke more of the condition of John’s faith, than of Jesus’ superiority to him.

For what it is worth, the following is an account of John’s baptism of Jesus:

The Aquarian Age Gospel of Jesus, the Christ of the Piscean Age

Chapter 64

THE news reached Galilee, and Jesus with the multitude went down to where the harbinger was preaching at the ford. 2 When Jesus saw the harbinger he said. Behold the man of God! Behold the greatest of the seers! Behold, Elijah has returned! 3 Behold the messenger whom God has sent to open up the way! The kingdom is at hand. 4 When John saw Jesus standing with the throng he said, Behold the king who cometh in the name of God! 5 And Jesus said to John, I would be washed in water as a symbol of the cleansing of the soul. 6 And John replied, you do not need to wash, for you are pure in thought, and word, and deed. And if you need to wash I am not worthy to perform the rite. 7 And Jesus said, I come to be a pattern for the sons of men, and what I bid them do, that I must do; and all men must be washed, symbolic of the cleansing of the soul. 8 This washing we establish as a rite--baptism rite we call it now, and so it shall be called. 9 Your work, prophetic harbinger, is to prepare the way, and to reveal the hidden things. 10 The multitudes are ready for the words of life, and I come to be made known by you to all the world, as prophet of the Triune God, and as the chosen one to manifest the Christ to men. 11 Then John led Jesus down into the river at the ford and he baptised him in the sacred name of him who sent him forth to manifest the Christ to men. 12 And as they came out of the stream, the Holy Breath, in form of dove, came down and sat on Jesus' head. 13 A voice from heaven said, This is the well-beloved son of God, the Christ, the love of God made manifest. 14 John heard the voice, and understood the message of the voice. 15 Now Jesus went his way, and John preached to the multitude. 16 As many as confessed their sins, and turned from evil ways to ways of right, the harbinger baptised, symbolic of the blotting of sins by righteousness.

The following is an account of John’s later doubting of Jesus

The Aquarian Age Gospel of Jesus, the Christ of the Piscean Age

Chapter 103

8 Now, in his prison by the Bitter Sea the harbinger had heard of all the mighty works that Jesus did. 9 His prison life was hard, and he was sore distressed, and he began to doubt. 10 And to himself he said, I wonder if this Jesus is the Christ of whom the prophets wrote! 11 Was I mistaken in my work? Was I, indeed, one sent from God to pave the way for him who shall redeem our people, Israel? 12 And then he sent some of his friends, who came to see him in his prison cell, up to Capernaum that they might learn about this man, and bring him word. 13 The men found Jesus in his home, and said, Behold the harbinger sent us to ask, Are you the Christ? or is he yet to come? 14 But Jesus answered not; he simply bade the men to tarry certain days that they might see and hear. 15 They saw him heal the sick, and cause the lame to walk, the deaf to hear, the blind to see; 16 They saw him cast the evil spirits out of those obsessed; they saw him raise the dead. 17 They heard him preach the gospel to the poor. 18 Then Jesus said to them, Go on your way; return to John and tell him all that you have seen and heard; then he will know. They went their way.

 

[cyberjosh]

That doesn't really confront the argument I put forward. The fact is that the gospels clearly evolve their presentation of John the Baptist in a way that consistently and successively represses his importance outside of Jesus.

You forget that John's own disciples started complaining to John that Jesus and his disciples were baptising, and it is then that John points out that he must step aside for Jesus because he was the man he was preparing everyone for all along. John declared himself to be the voice in the wilderness declaing to the people to prepare the way for the Lord to travel, similar to the Essene claim. He was clearly preparing for someone greater than himself and he said he was not the Prophet, the Messiah, or Elijah, he was just that voice in the wilderness, though also the greatest man yet to be born of a woman.

 

[Quath]

I think it should be pointed out that the New Testament was written by followers of Jesus and not John. If John's followers had written about him, I am sure he would have accredited with many miracles as most religious figures at that time were.