G
Georges
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In Jewish eschatology, there appears to be 2 Messiah's.
1. Messiah ben Joseph (the suffering servant). Messiah ben Joseph would die and would be resurrected during the Messianic Kingdom.
2. Messiah ben David (the conquering king). This is the Messiah that will rid Israel of it's enemies and rule the Messianic Kingdom.
The Jews consider these as 2 separate individuals. Christians rightly (I believe) recognize these as 1 individual with 2 comings. Jesus as (Messiah ben Joseph) at his first coming is the Suffering Servant. Jesus at his second coming will come as (Messiah ben David), the Conquering King.
I have been wrongly contending that Jesus was not an atonement sacrifice as he did not fill the qualifications of a "Sin", or "Passover" Sacrifice in the classical terms as given for the Passover sacrifice in the Torah.
Vic rightly challenged me on this by quoting Isa 53 (A Messianic prophetic chapter amidst a group of Messianic chapters). In particular...
Isa 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
Isa 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, [there is] no beauty that we should desire him.
Isa 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were [our] faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5 But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
Isa 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
Isa 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither [was any] deceit in his mouth.
Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Having said that...I started researching "Sacrifice" and "Atonement"...as Paul tries to tie in Jesus as the Pascal lamb....he just didn't seem to qualify.
Having said that....I came apon this article in http://www.jewishencyclpedia.com and now I'm happy that there is a Jewish explanation tying Jesus to the role as Messiah ben Joseph (the Suffering Servant) as an atonement for sin. The excerpt below is from the http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com article on atonement.
...Suffering as Means of Atonement.
Another thing considered by the Rabbis as a means of Atonement is suffering. Suffering is more apt than sacrifice to win God's favor and to atone for man (Mek., Yitro, 10; Sifre, Deut. 32; Ber. 5a). Poverty also, in so far as it reduces man's physical strength, has atoning power (Pesiḳ. xxv. 165a). Similar power was ascribed to exile (Sanh. 37b); also to the destruction of the Temple, which was held as a securityâ€â€a play on the word â€â€for Israel's life (Gen. R. xlii.; Ex. R. xxxi.; Lev. R. xi.). Above all, death atones for sin (Sifre, Num. 112; Mek., Yitro, 7). "Let my death make atonement for all my sins," say men when dying or in peril (Ber. 60a; Sanh. vi. 2). Particularly the deathof the righteous atones for the sins of the people. "Like the sanctuary, he is taken as security ["mashkon"] for the life of the community" (Tan., Wayaḳhel 9; Ex. R. xxxv. 4; Lev. R. ii.).
Suffering or Death of the Righteous.
That the death of the righteous atones is learned from II Sam. xxi. 14, which says that after the burial of Saul and Jonathan "God was entreated for the land" (Pesiḳ. xxvii. 174b). "Where there are no righteous men in a generation to atone for the people, innocent school-children are taken away" (Shab. 33b). So also does the suffering of the righteous atone; as in the case of Ezekiel (Sanh. 39a) and Job (Ex. R. xxi.).
excerpt from "Atonement" http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. ... 2&letter=A
also...as I had stated in other posts, the Jews traditionally consider that Messiah was one of the things created before the world...At the house I have a great book to have as a resource...it's title "The Messiah Texts" by Raphel Patai. In it, the book contains every scrap of information in Judaism concerning the Messiah. While reading the chapter concerning Messiah ben Joseph, there are excerpts describing God's dialoge (in heaven/pre creation) concerning his role. In the discourse God asks the pre-existant Messiah concerning the role of the suffering Messiah to which the Messiah gladly accepts the role....I will post the resource tomorrow...
I'm happy now.....except for Paul's paschal lamb reference.
1. Messiah ben Joseph (the suffering servant). Messiah ben Joseph would die and would be resurrected during the Messianic Kingdom.
2. Messiah ben David (the conquering king). This is the Messiah that will rid Israel of it's enemies and rule the Messianic Kingdom.
The Jews consider these as 2 separate individuals. Christians rightly (I believe) recognize these as 1 individual with 2 comings. Jesus as (Messiah ben Joseph) at his first coming is the Suffering Servant. Jesus at his second coming will come as (Messiah ben David), the Conquering King.
I have been wrongly contending that Jesus was not an atonement sacrifice as he did not fill the qualifications of a "Sin", or "Passover" Sacrifice in the classical terms as given for the Passover sacrifice in the Torah.
Vic rightly challenged me on this by quoting Isa 53 (A Messianic prophetic chapter amidst a group of Messianic chapters). In particular...
Isa 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
Isa 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, [there is] no beauty that we should desire him.
Isa 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were [our] faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5 But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
Isa 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
Isa 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither [was any] deceit in his mouth.
Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Having said that...I started researching "Sacrifice" and "Atonement"...as Paul tries to tie in Jesus as the Pascal lamb....he just didn't seem to qualify.
Having said that....I came apon this article in http://www.jewishencyclpedia.com and now I'm happy that there is a Jewish explanation tying Jesus to the role as Messiah ben Joseph (the Suffering Servant) as an atonement for sin. The excerpt below is from the http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com article on atonement.
...Suffering as Means of Atonement.
Another thing considered by the Rabbis as a means of Atonement is suffering. Suffering is more apt than sacrifice to win God's favor and to atone for man (Mek., Yitro, 10; Sifre, Deut. 32; Ber. 5a). Poverty also, in so far as it reduces man's physical strength, has atoning power (Pesiḳ. xxv. 165a). Similar power was ascribed to exile (Sanh. 37b); also to the destruction of the Temple, which was held as a securityâ€â€a play on the word â€â€for Israel's life (Gen. R. xlii.; Ex. R. xxxi.; Lev. R. xi.). Above all, death atones for sin (Sifre, Num. 112; Mek., Yitro, 7). "Let my death make atonement for all my sins," say men when dying or in peril (Ber. 60a; Sanh. vi. 2). Particularly the deathof the righteous atones for the sins of the people. "Like the sanctuary, he is taken as security ["mashkon"] for the life of the community" (Tan., Wayaḳhel 9; Ex. R. xxxv. 4; Lev. R. ii.).
Suffering or Death of the Righteous.
That the death of the righteous atones is learned from II Sam. xxi. 14, which says that after the burial of Saul and Jonathan "God was entreated for the land" (Pesiḳ. xxvii. 174b). "Where there are no righteous men in a generation to atone for the people, innocent school-children are taken away" (Shab. 33b). So also does the suffering of the righteous atone; as in the case of Ezekiel (Sanh. 39a) and Job (Ex. R. xxi.).
excerpt from "Atonement" http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. ... 2&letter=A
also...as I had stated in other posts, the Jews traditionally consider that Messiah was one of the things created before the world...At the house I have a great book to have as a resource...it's title "The Messiah Texts" by Raphel Patai. In it, the book contains every scrap of information in Judaism concerning the Messiah. While reading the chapter concerning Messiah ben Joseph, there are excerpts describing God's dialoge (in heaven/pre creation) concerning his role. In the discourse God asks the pre-existant Messiah concerning the role of the suffering Messiah to which the Messiah gladly accepts the role....I will post the resource tomorrow...
I'm happy now.....except for Paul's paschal lamb reference.
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