John Chapter 6

[William Putnam]

Hi William,

John 6 does make sense in relation to the last supper's bread and wine. Some of your other comments, in the light of scripture seem un-conciliatory, about the non-catholic priest (pastors) and partaking of communion. Not even Peter (nor any other apostle) were Catholic in the sense you convey as a modern Catholic. But I understand something of your resolve and devotion to the Catholic Church.

1. The matter is one of proper “credentials†that one could confect the Eucharist in the changing of bread and wine into the actual body and blood, soul and divinity of Our Lord. The Catholic position is that only Catholic priests are capable of this because they have valid Holy Orders to do this from their ordination by a bishop, who was likewise ordained by a bishop…by a bishop…by a bishop…so it goes, in a line of succession. The only Church to have valid orders outside of the Catholic Church is the Orthodox Church, since they did not alter the rite of ordination and the intent in their schism from Rome. (There are other churches who have succession as well, the “Old Catholics†is one, not knowing if your have then in Australia or not…) In any case, I cannot be “conciliatory†to those who believe they can do this, even while they do not believe in transubstantiation.

2. There is general agreement that the title “Catholic†did not come to be until circa A.D. 110, when St. Ignatius, bishop of Antioch was one of the first to use the term in speaking of the Church. As for Peter, strictly speaking, He was not “Catholic†(let alone “Roman Catholicâ€Â) simply because in those very early days in the infant church, that church certainly was not “universal,†was it? But since no other church can claim to be directly related to the only church around for the first 1,000 years of her history, when it did become “universal†by evangelization throughout the known civilized word at the time, the handle of “Catholic†became appropriate. So no, there stands Peter, in charge of the tiny sect of people called “Christians†after Pentecost, soon to begin an evangelistic explosion that amazes me to this day! Something tells me that the Holy Spirit had something to do with it…

I would urge you in turn to consider the 'priority' of the Jew and the gentile wrt the olive tree of Romans chapter 11 - again! Unless you happen to be Jewish you are a gentile like me. The best we can do is to be grafted into the cultivated olive tree (Romans 11). Thus we are a wild branch or of the wild branch genre. The 'priority' (as I like to call it) belongs to the natural branch broken off for the sake of the gentiles. In short, I (still) believe that the Catholic Church is of the wild olive branch genre, as are the protestant churches.

And all this time, I thought that the New Covenant of Jesus Christ was the “New sprout†that sprung up from the old, now fulfilled covenant of the Old Covenant of Abraham, Moses and others. And whether I am Jew or gentile, that difference is immediately erased by the waters of baptism, circumcision now relegated in importance to a medical procedure given to infant males today as a matter of pure hygiene only.

When the natural branch is grafted back (into the cultivated olive tree) the church will display 'end time glory.' Will grafting the natural branch back into the cultivated olive tree bring a level of fulfilment to the Lord's supper previously unknowable?

Romans 11 NASB

13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.
15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. . . .

24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

Well, thank you for the quote, but methinks that I am within the original “Olive branch†that sprung up from the deeper roots of Judaism and the Old Covenant, even while I am a gentile. As I look back at history of the New Covenant of Jesus Christ, there in only one “trunk†of this olive tree (that is the New Covenant that came up from Judaism) that I see.

It began at Pentecost, growing slowly at first, but spread like wildfire rapidly thereafter, still only one trunk, her “branches†were the local churches planted all over the then civilized world, yet of the same “trunk†(and in substance from that trunk) that I see only one trunk existing for the first 1,000 years. And interestingly, this rapid spread came among the Jews originally, even in Corinth and the rest of Greece, among the Jews who were there as a result of the great Diaspora.

Unfortunately, the bulk of Judaism did not follow along into the New Covenant…

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


I believe in God,
the Father Almighty,
Creator of heaven and earth;
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son,
Our Lord;
who was conceived by the holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died,
and was buried.

He descended into hell;
the third day He arose again from the dead;
He ascended into heaven,
sitteth at the right hand of God,
the Father almighty;
from thence He shall come to judge
the living and the dead.

I believe in the holy Spirit,
the Holy Catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.

Amen.

- The Apostles Creed -

 

[stranger]

William wrote:
And all this time, I thought that the New Covenant of Jesus Christ was the “New sprout†that sprung up from the old, now fulfilled covenant of the Old Covenant of Abraham, Moses and others. And whether I am Jew or gentile, that difference is immediately erased by the waters of baptism, circumcision now relegated in importance to a medical procedure given to infant males today as a matter of pure hygiene only.

I am not sure what you are referring to but my focus is Romans 11 and the cultivated olive tree, natural and wild branches, and the root. No sprouts or trunks. The same apostle who said there is neither Jew nor Greek . . . we are all one in Christ Jesus also wrote the letter to the Romans. There is no surplanting of the church intended.

Well, thank you for the quote, but methinks that I am within the original “Olive branch†that sprung up from the deeper roots of Judaism and the Old Covenant, even while I am a gentile. As I look back at history of the New Covenant of Jesus Christ, there in only one “trunk†of this olive tree (that is the New Covenant that came up from Judaism) that I see.

If you are within the original (natural) olive branch - then you are a Jew by birth not simply a child of Abraham by promise. If I may say so . . a church hermenuetic that speaks of a trunk in the illiustration of the olive tree in Romans 11 where the apostle himself is silent - needs to be revisited! There is much to revisit here for both Catholic and Protestant.

It began at Pentecost, growing slowly at first, but spread like wildfire rapidly thereafter, still only one trunk, her “branches†were the local churches planted all over the then civilized world, yet of the same “trunk†(and in substance from that trunk) that I see only one trunk existing for the first 1,000 years. And interestingly, this rapid spread came among the Jews originally, even in Corinth and the rest of Greece, among the Jews who were there as a result of the great Diaspora.

Unfortunately, the bulk of Judaism did not follow along into the New Covenant…

You acknowledge a debt to the natural branch! My concern is the mystery of Israel as portrayed in Romans 11, and the blessing that the grafting of the natural branch will bring to the church in the last days. God has the power to graft them in and it will be a blessing to you and the church and it seems this will occur after the full number of gentiles come in.