Learning from the Day of Judgement

[JLB]

“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
“Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
“Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:31-46



Please share your thoughts from this passage as well as others that talk about the Day when the Lord returns, and we give an account of the free gift we were given.






JLB

 

[JLB]

PeterJens

Matthew 25:31-46 is an explanation to the parabolic teaching that starts in Matthew 24:45.


Jesus sums up His Olivet Discourse, which is the answer to the question His disciples asked Him privately.


Whenever He spoke in parabolic fashion, He gave an explanation to His disciples afterward when they were away from the crowds.

Of course there were exceptions, but here alone with them on the mount of Olives He freely answered their question which asked —

“Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”


The parable that is contextually linked to
Matthew 25:31-46 is the previous one which begins in verse 14, and is called the parable of the talents.


It’s about His servants, and what they choose to do with the free gift of His life that each one was given in different measure.

The result and answer is found in Matthew 25:31-46



JLB

 

[PeterJens]

PeterJens

Matthew 25:31-46 is an explanation to the parabolic teaching that starts in Matthew 24:45.


Jesus sums up His Oliver Discourse, which is the answer to the question His disciples asked Him privately.


Whenever He spoke in parabolic fashion, He gave an explanation to His disciples afterward when they were away from the crowds.

Of course there were exceptions, but here alone with them on the mount of Olives He freely answered their question which asked —

“Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”


The parable that is contextually linked to
Matthew 25:31-46 is the previous one which begins in verse 14, and is called the parable of the talents.


It’s about His servants, and what they choose to do with the free gift of His life that each one was given in different measure.

The result and answer is found in
Matthew 25:31-46



JLB

Amen.

Jesus is saying need demands an answer. It is hard to know exactly which answer and how, but caring, loving, bending down and listening is listening to what is in Gods heart. When people suffer, He suffers, when problems come, He feels them.

But if this is righteous judgement, without repentance, then is no mercy.
Once you feel anothers pain, you can begin to see why we should help. Wealth builds a barrier which says I deserve privilege and ease, while others suffer. But in truth we can only reach out from the wealth we have to bring others into a good relationship with us and God. The illusion is that wealth determines the successful from the failure, where Jesus shows it is those who can reach out and help lift up another who is truly rich, full and overflowing in their hearts, while the man who turns away, and walks on is alone and poverty stricken in their hearts.

The way of the world is to make self different from the ordinary, the way of the Kingdom is to make oneself like the ordinary and show one cares, deeply. One way leads to death, and the other to life.

 

[JLB]

Amen.

Jesus is saying need demands an answer. It is hard to know exactly which answer and how, but caring, loving, bending down and listening is listening to what is in Gods heart. When people suffer, He suffers, when problems come, He feels them.

But if this is righteous judgement, without repentance, then is no mercy.
Once you feel anothers pain, you can begin to see why we should help. Wealth builds a barrier which says I deserve privilege and ease, while others suffer. But in truth we can only reach out from the wealth we have to bring others into a good relationship with us and God. The illusion is that wealth determines the successful from the failure, where Jesus shows it is those who can reach out and help lift up another who is truly rich, full and overflowing in their hearts, while the man who turns away, and walks on is alone and poverty stricken in their hearts.

The way of the world is to make self different from the ordinary, the way of the Kingdom is to make oneself like the ordinary and show one cares, deeply. One way leads to death, and the other to life.

Here is the context of Matthew 25:31-46 as taught in the parable of the talents.


“For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them.
Matthew 25:14


When we begin to understand that those on His right hand and on the left are all His servants that were given a measure of His life, and expected to bear fruit, or as the parable says, to take what He has given to us and produce more, then it takes on a very different meaning.


Most people argue that those on His left are unbelievers.





JLB

 

[PeterJens]

I play internet war games, learning skills etc. It is always the group power over another group. People talk about the war of Armagedon as if it is something to fear.

But this is the war, the reality of power and authority.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, "Come, gather together for the great supper of God,
18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great."
19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army.
20 But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshipped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulphur.
21 The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.
Rev 19:17-21

This is not a war it is a slaughter. You do not fight the Lord of hosts.
It is not a fair war, it is a war of the insane and the mad. The only reason why the war can even be started is because God desires that those that might be saved are saved. It is not because of weakness, because of fragility, but because of strength, hope and a willingness to do everything to give everyone a chance. It is because of the nature of the Kingdom and the Lord that this is how things are, though sinful man and satan believe it is weakness that can be exploited and used, little do they realise it demonstrates why such an approach is doomed to death and failure.

If I do 99 great things, but one that destroys, the one undoes all that went before. Destruction may be very unlikely, and only a small chink in the armour, but it is fatal. While one rides the 99 great things all seems right and wonderful, like the fool on the hill in his mansion, feeling none can touch him. What is the point of the 99 when they come to dust and ashes, unless the one can be resolved through walking with God.

It seems strange to give up the 99 to resolve the one, yet the one is what matters and has eternal consequences.

 

[Christ the King]

The scripture that comes to my mind is from Revelation 20:11-15

Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

This confuses me as well.

When a person dies their either saved or their not, heaven or hell.
But here it says the dead come up from Hades
In Hebrew this was Sheol and was meant to be abolished when Christ died on the cross

The Greek word Hades is also sometimes translated as hell.
But if we take that definition we have the dead coming up from hell to be judged when hell is meant to be eternal.
Then hell itself gets thrown into the "lake of fire" which is hell.
Doesn't make sense to me

Who are the dead that we read about here?

 

[JLB]

Who are the dead that we read about here?

We know that they are not the dead in Christ.

The dead in Christ are resurrected at His coming.


But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15



JLB

 

[PeterJens]

The scripture that comes to my mind is from Revelation 20:11-15

Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

This confuses me as well.

When a person dies their either saved or their not, heaven or hell.
But here it says the dead come up from Hades
In Hebrew this was Sheol and was meant to be abolished when Christ died on the cross

The Greek word Hades is also sometimes translated as hell.
But if we take that definition we have the dead coming up from hell to be judged when hell is meant to be eternal.
Then hell itself gets thrown into the "lake of fire" which is hell.
Doesn't make sense to me

Who are the dead that we read about here?

You are right about simple definitions.
It appears everyone is resurrected.
The dead are given punishments for their behaviour on earth.
After a period of time, hades itself is destroyed, the place of punishment.

Either those resurrected are destroyed in the lake of fire, the second death or because they are written in the lambs book of life and live with Jesus forever.

As Gods people have been washed clean and their evil deeds forgotten there is no punishment for them in hades.

Some have suggested in effect the saved go to be with Jesus straight away, which in a sense is like waking up and starting a new day. Whether the timing or point matters I do not know.

Some want to suggest everyone is tormented forever, except this is only true definitively for those who worship the beast and have the mark.
There is an outstanding issue of children, who are born outside believing families, and have no imputed holiness, so therefore are doomed to destruction. They do not knowingly sin, so can then be punished for something they are not responsible freely for? And can a none responsible individual be tortured eternally for something outside their responsibility?

Some would argue destruction means atheists get what they want, oblivion. What is missed is oblivion is their belief system, but when you know God and His reality, the impact is truly shattering. Scripture suggests our response to knowing God but not being born of Him, is weeping and gnashing of teeth, ie total personality collapse. A husk which does not function or hold together. A panic attack without end.

 

[Christ the King]

To me it seems there are two ways a person could interpret the final judgement
Im sure there are even more interpretations but i'll just lay out the two which i see

1/ When we die we will either go to the kingdom of God or to Hades (there could be a judgement or not but thats another discussion). I think this is the most widely believed. Then at the last judgement all the people on earth will be judged as well as the dead in Hades. This is basically what the CCC says as well

2/ When we die we go into a state of sleep and will only wake up when the final judgement comes. This is what rev 20 sounds like to me.

We know that they are not the dead in Christ.

The dead in Christ are resurrected at His coming.

Is it fair to say that you believe we "go to sleep" when we die?

I had a really good look at that passage you quoted. Its a good one
I looked at the whole part from 13-18 in NIV, ESV and ERV... (i just can't do KJV)
I like to read different versions as you can pick up other things sometimes.

The passage clearly speaks of the souls who are dead/asleep in Christ
I read some commentaries on it. One was totally describing this sleep.
The other two were very vague.

The thing is I know that there is scripture that also supports the belief that we can go to heaven when we die as well. It's hard to discern the truth here in what seems to be a biblical contradiction

What do u guys think JLB and PeterJens ?

 

[PeterJens]

To me it seems there are two ways a person could interpret the final judgement
Im sure there are even more interpretations but i'll just lay out the two which i see

1/ When we die we will either go to the kingdom of God or to Hades (there could be a judgement or not but thats another discussion). I think this is the most widely believed. Then at the last judgement all the people on earth will be judged as well as the dead in Hades. This is basically what the CCC says as well

2/ When we die we go into a state of sleep and will only wake up when the final judgement comes. This is what rev 20 sounds like to me.




Is it fair to say that you believe we "go to sleep" when we die?

I had a really good look at that passage you quoted. Its a good one
I looked at the whole part from 13-18 in NIV, ESV and ERV... (i just can't do KJV)
I like to read different versions as you can pick up other things sometimes.

The passage clearly speaks of the souls who are dead/asleep in Christ
I read some commentaries on it. One was totally describing this sleep.
The other two were very vague.

The thing is I know that there is scripture that also supports the belief that we can go to heaven when we die as well. It's hard to discern the truth here in what seems to be a biblical contradiction

What do u guys think JLB and PeterJens ?

My view is whatever God ordains is ok with me.
Paul talked about meeting Jesus when He returns.

As ones emphasis as to timing etc varies, and this does not affect ones walk or salvation, I just say amen to meeting Jesus. What concerned me was those who preached tribulation and fear, so you should come to Christ now to avoid the beast and persecution by being raptured. Being fearful of God is a good thing, but keeping a nice secure life style to the end seems nothing like Jesus's heart.

Equally those who want a date, or hunting out the lawless one, miss the point the church always faces persecution, suffering and enemies, but in Jesus we overcome.
God bless you

 

[JLB]

Is it fair to say that you believe we "go to sleep" when we die?

No sir.

Concerning the dead in Christ...

Our body dies.

Our spirit man, goes to be with the a Lord.


For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 2 Corinthians 5:1-3




JLB

 

[JLB]

I had a really good look at that passage you quoted. Its a good one
I looked at the whole part from 13-18 in NIV, ESV and ERV... (i just can't do KJV)
I like to read different versions as you can pick up other things sometimes.

The passage clearly speaks of the souls who are dead/asleep in Christ
I read some commentaries on it.

The passage from 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 does not refer to “souls who are asleep“.


But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18


The term “those who sleep in Jesus” is a reference to the dead in Christ.

Dead or “asleep” refers to the physical body, which will be resurrected when the Lord returns, so Paul uses the word “sleep”, to indicate that the body will “wake up” when the Lord resurrects it at His coming.


The spirit man of the dead in Christ is in heaven present with the Lord and not “asleep”.


Verse 13 tells us this —


But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. Vs 13


They are not asleep, but will return with Christ, to receive their resurrected bodies, or as Paul says to the Corinthians, to be further clothed with immortality; a body that is immortal, which has replaced the one that was mortal.


For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 2 Corinthians 5:4


again


So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 1 Corinthians 15:42-44




JLB

 

[Christ the King]

Ok thanks for that explanation JLB

So what your saying is that we remain as spirit with our Lord
Then on the final judgement we will receive new bodies and enter into the new heaven which follows the last judgement in Revelation 21

What about Hades? Do u think it's hell or a resting point for some?
Can a soul go to hell after death or is it only on the final judgement?

And what do you make of the new heaven and earth?
Will some people be consigned to another life in this new earth?

 

[JLB]

Ok thanks for that explanation JLB

So what your saying is that we remain as spirit with our Lord
Then on the final judgement we will receive new bodies and enter into the new heaven which follows the last judgement in Revelation 21

What about Hades? Do u think it's hell or a resting point for some?
Can a soul go to hell after death or is it only on the final judgement?

And what do you make of the new heaven and earth?
Will some people be consigned to another life in this new earth?

All great questions.


The Day of Judgement for His people is when He returns.

We will all stand before Him on that day to be judged according to our deeds, which you just read about in Matthew 25:31-46


Other scriptures that talk about this are...


But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God. Romans 2:5-11


Key Passage:

God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
• but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath

again


Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences. 2 Corinthians 5:9-11


Key Passage:


For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.



The judgement of the wicked is accomplished after the 1000 years.






JLB