• CFN has a new look and a new theme

    "I bore you on eagle's wings, and brought you to Myself" (Exodus 19:4)

    More new themes will be coming in the future!

  • Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?

    Join For His Glory for a discussion on how

    https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/

  • CFN welcomes new contributing members!

    Please welcome Roberto and Julia to our family

    Blessings in Christ, and hope you stay awhile!

  • Have questions about the Christian faith?

    Come ask us what's on your mind in Questions and Answers

    https://christianforums.net/forums/questions-and-answers/

  • Read the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ?

    Read through this brief blog, and receive eternal salvation as the free gift of God

    /blog/the-gospel

  • Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need

    https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/

  • Focus on the Family

    Strengthening families through biblical principles.

    Focus on the Family addresses the use of biblical principles in parenting and marriage to strengthen the family.

[_ Old Earth _] Light-travel time: a problem for the big bang

  • Thread starter Thread starter Eve777
  • Start date Start date
E

Eve777

Guest
Light-travel time: a problem for the big bang
by Robert Newton

The ‘distant starlight problem’ is sometimes used as an argument against biblical creation. People who believe in billions of years often claim that light from the most distant galaxies could not possibly reach earth in only 6,000 years. However, the light-travel–time argument cannot be used to reject the Bible in favour of the big bang, with its billions of years. This is because the big bang model also has a light-travel–time problem.

The background
In 1964/5, Penzias and Wilson discovered that the earth was bathed in a faint microwave radiation, apparently coming from the most distant observable regions of the universe, and this earned them the Nobel Prize for Physics in 1978.1 This Cosmic Microwave Background (CMB) comes from all directions in space and has a characteristic temperature.2,3 While the discovery of the CMB has been called a successful prediction of the big bang model,4 it is actually a problem for the big bang. This is because the precisely uniform temperature of the CMB creates a light-travel–time problem for big bang models of the origin of the universe.

The problem
The temperature of the CMB is essentially the same everywhere5â€â€in all directions (to a precision of 1 part in 100,000).6 However (according to big bang theorists), in the early universe, the temperature of the CMB7 would have been very different at different places in space due to the random nature of the initial conditions. These different regions could come to the same temperature if they were in close contact. More distant regions would come to equilibrium by exchanging radiation (i.e. light8). The radiation would carry energy from warmer regions to cooler ones until they had the same temperature.


(1) Early in the alleged big bang, points A and B start out with different temperatures.
(2) Today, points A and B have the same temperature, yet there has not been enough time for them to exchange light.
The problem is this: even assuming the big bang timescale, there has not been enough time for light to travel between widely separated regions of space. So, how can the different regions of the current CMB have such precisely uniform temperatures if they have never communicated with each other?9 This is a light-travel–time problem.10

The big bang model assumes that the universe is many billions of years old. While this timescale is sufficient for light to travel from distant galaxies to earth, it does not provide enough time for light to travel from one side of the visible universe to the other. At the time the light was emitted, supposedly 300,000 years after the big bang, space already had a uniform temperature over a range at least ten times larger than the distance that light could have travelled (called the ‘horizon’)11 So, how can these regions look the same, i.e. have the same temperature? How can one side of the visible universe ‘know’ about the other side if there has not been enough time for the information to be exchanged? This is called the ‘horizon problem’.12 Secular astronomers have proposed many possible solutions to it, but no satisfactory one has emerged to date (see Attempts to overcome the big bang’s ‘light-travel–time problem’ below).

Summing up
The big bang requires that opposite regions of the visible universe must have exchanged energy by radiation, since these regions of space look the same in CMB maps. But there has not been enough time for light to travel this distance. Both biblical creationists and big bang supporters have proposed a variety of possible solutions to light-travel–time difficulties in their respective models. So big-bangers should not criticize creationists for hypothesizing potential solutions, since they do the same thing with their own model. The horizon problem remains a serious difficulty for big bang supporters, as evidenced by their many competing conjectures that attempt to solve it. Therefore, it is inconsistent for supporters of the big bang model to use light-travel time as an argument against biblical creation, since their own notion has an equivalent problem.
 
Scientists don't know exactly how it happened yet, but there are many possibilities. Until it is proved that none of these mechanisms could possibly explain the effect, science as no problem. OTOH, YECs most defintiely have the problem of explaining why God would deceptively create a universe that when studied 6000 years later would give all indications of having a vast age.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/creatio ... travel.asp

Attempts to overcome the big bang’s ‘light-travel–time problem’

Currently, the most popular idea is called ‘inflation’â€â€a conjecture invented by Alan Guth in 1981. In this scenario, the expansion rate of the universe (i.e. space itself) was vastly accelerated in an ‘inflation phase’ early in the big bang. The different regions of the universe were in very close contact before this inflation took place. Thus, they were able to come to the same temperature by exchanging radiation before they were rapidly (faster than the speed of light1) pushed apart. According to inflation, even though distant regions of the universe are not in contact today, they were in contact before the inflation phase when the universe was small.

However, the inflation scenario is far from certain. There are many different inflation models, each with its set of difficulties. Moreover, there is no consensus on which (if any) inflation model is correct. A physical mechanism that could cause the inflation is not known, though there are many speculations. There are also difficulties on how to turn off the inflation once it startsâ€â€the ‘graceful exit’ problem.2 Many inflation models are known to be wrongâ€â€making predictions that are not consistent with observations,3 such as Guth’s original model.4 Also, many aspects of inflation models are currently unable to be tested.

Some astronomers do not accept inflationary models and have proposed other possible solutions to the horizon problem. These include: scenarios in which the gravitational constant varies with time,5 the ‘ekpyrotic model’ which involves a cyclic universe,6 scenarios in which light takes ‘shortcuts’ through extra (hypothetical) dimensions,7 ‘null-singularity’ models,8 and models in which the speed of light was much greater in the past.9,10 (Creationists have also pointed out that a changing speed of light may solve light-travel–time difficulties for biblical creation.11)

In light of this disagreement, it is safe to say that the horizon problem has not been decisively solved.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/creatio ... travel.asp
 
Eve777 said:
Light-travel time: a problem for the big bang
by Robert Newton
Whatever the case or problem you might see it certainly doesn't not give any more validity to a God. It certainly does not give any creedence to the 6000 year earth. The city of Jericho existed around 8000 years ago. Give that 6000 year thing up.
 
cubedbee said:
In light of this disagreement, it is safe to say that the horizon problem has not been decisively solved.

There is a scientist trying to work this out, well, there are many trying to work it out, but his name comes to mind...his name is Joao Magueijo. He's trying to formulate a theory about a varying speed of light in order to help solve the horizon problem.

his book is called "Faster than the Speed of Light". Anyone interested in a good read should check it out.

He admits that his idea has no evidence as of yet.


http://www.thegreatdebate.org.uk/VSLReview1.html
 
Asimov said:
He's trying to formulate a theory about a varying speed of light in order to help solve the horizon problem.

Actually there are others working on an idea like that too, I'll see if I can find the articles tommorrow.
 
There is a scientist trying to work this out, well, there are many trying to work it out, but his name comes to mind...his name is Joao Magueijo. He's trying to formulate a theory about a varying speed of light in order to help solve the horizon problem.

QED allows light to have a vacuum velocity of light that varies. In fact, the path integral formulation depends on it.
 
Hello there everybody.I'm new to this site and chose this thread seeing as how I've always been interested in this sort of thing.I went to superstringtheory.com/cosmo/ and it explained everything very nicely.
 
(1) Early in the alleged big bang, points A and B start out with different temperatures.
(2) Today, points A and B have the same temperature, yet there has not been enough time for them to exchange light.
The problem is this: even assuming the big bang timescale, there has not been enough time for light to travel between widely separated regions of space. So, how can the different regions of the current CMB have such precisely uniform temperatures if they have never communicated with each other?9 This is a light-travel–time problem.10
See the information here is not up to date here, what Penzias and Wilson discovered was not the best resolution.
Compare:
m_d_53s_1111b.jpg

The top is a representation of what P and W saw.
The middle is what the COBE satelite picked up in the 90s.
And the bottom is what the WMAP found. These are all the same image, just at different resolutions. Notice how points at A and B are at different relative temperatures.
Here is a better resolving of the last image:
feature_inset.jpg


Argument refuted, in toto.
 
Asimov said:
cubedbee said:
In light of this disagreement, it is safe to say that the horizon problem has not been decisively solved.

There is a scientist trying to work this out, well, there are many trying to work it out, but his name comes to mind...his name is Joao Magueijo. He's trying to formulate a theory about a varying speed of light in order to help solve the horizon problem.

his book is called "Faster than the Speed of Light". Anyone interested in a good read should check it out.

He admits that his idea has no evidence as of yet.


http://www.thegreatdebate.org.uk/VSLReview1.html

I know this is late but... I have that book! I love it, he's brilliant and knows how to talk about physics in a captivating manner, much like Feynman but with less sex.
 
Back
Top