Limited Atonement?

[JLB]

Going down the list of TULIP, we come to the doctrine of Limited Atonement.

This is the definition I found on Google. If someone has a different definition for Limited Atonement then please share it here.


Limited atonement" is a Christian theological doctrine that states Jesus Christ died only for a select group of people, known as the "elect," meaning that while his death was sufficient for everyone, the benefits of his sacrifice are only applied to those God has chosen for salvation beforehand; it's often considered a key part of Calvinist theology and is referred to as the "L" in the acronym "TULIP" which stands for the five points of Calvinism.

Key points about limited atonement:

Focus on the elect:
This doctrine emphasizes that Jesus' death was specifically intended to redeem only those individuals God has already chosen for salvation, not everyone in the world.


Like Unconditional Election, the phrase Limited Atonement is not found in scripture.

However, this thread seeks to see if the idea or concept of Limited Atonement is found in scripture or not.


Let’s start with the words of Jesus.


And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die. John 12:32-33 KJV

Jesus Himself plainly stated that by His crucifixion He would draw all men unto Himself.

So His intent is for all men to be drawn to Himself.


Does that automatically mean all men will be saved?


No, only those who believe in Him will be saved.

Plainly the condition for salvation is to believe.


Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12


So, like the Unconditional Election and Total Depravity, we see there is no real evidence in scripture for Limited Atonement”.


The Lord desires all men to be drawn to Himself.

The Lord desires all men to be saved.


Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Timothy 2:1-4

 

[electedbyHim]

Jesus on Limited Atonement.

John 10:11
John 10:15
Matthew 26:28
Luke 19:10
John 6:35-40

 

[Whatever]

This doctrine emphasizes that Jesus' death was specifically intended to redeem only those individuals God has already chosen for salvation, not everyone in the world.

Yes, Jesus said the same thing.

John 10:11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.
John 10:15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.

We know that Jesus talks about other people referred to as Tares or Goats. Therefore His atonement is limited to the sheep - those given to Him by the Father.

John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

Certain people were given (chosen/elected) to Jesus to lay down His life for them. It is the Father's will that Jesus lose none of these people.

If the Father gave Jesus the "whole world" of people to lay His life down for, then Jesus fails at the Father's will and looses many of those people. That sounds like blasphemy.

 

[Fish153]

I have to admit: I consider myself a "4 point Calvinist" because I could never accept the teaching of limited Atonement. Limited Atonement seems to infer that God has "chosen" some to be saved, and "not chosen" others---which really means they are consigned to hell. I believe that Jesus died for EVERY PERSON ever born in the world. Why?

"For God so loved THE WORLD, that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
For God sent not his Son into THE WORLD to condemn THE WORLD; but that THE WORLD through him might be saved". (John 3:16,17).

What makes this so hard is that I also do believe in election. I think it is clearly taught in the Bible. I believe also in Total Depravity. I don't believe anyone can come to God unless God Himself causes them to become alive (just as Lazarus was called forth from the grave physically). Acts 16 has the story of Lydia: "And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart THE LORD OPENED, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul." (Acts 16:14).

So, what I arrive at is that we cannot understand the mystery of election in full. It is hidden in the infinite wisdom of God. How could Jesus die FOR ALL, and yet only SOME be elected? It doesn't make sense to us---but it does to God. I see through a glass darkly now----some day I'll understand and see things face to face.

 

[electedbyHim]

I have to admit: I consider myself a "4 point Calvinist" because I could never accept the teaching of limited Atonement. Limited Atonement seems to infer that God has "chosen" some to be saved, and "not chosen" others---which really means they are consigned to hell. I believe that Jesus died for EVERY PERSON ever born in the world. Why?

"For God so loved THE WORLD, that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
For God sent not his Son into THE WORLD to condemn THE WORLD; but that THE WORLD through him might be saved". (John 3:16,17).

What makes this so hard is that I also do believe in election. I think it is clearly taught in the Bible. I believe also in Total Depravity. I don't believe anyone can come to God unless God Himself causes them to become alive (just as Lazarus was called forth from the grave physically). Acts 16 has the story of Lydia: "And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart THE LORD OPENED, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul." (Acts 16:14).

So, what I arrive at is that we cannot understand the mystery of election in full. It is hidden in the infinite wisdom of God. How could Jesus die FOR ALL, and yet only SOME be elected? It doesn't make sense to us---but it does to God. I see through a glass darkly now----some day I'll understand and see things face to face.

Read this, perhaps it will make sense to you.

Did Jesus Die for Everyone?

 

[JLB]

Yes, Jesus said the same thing.

No Jesus certainly did not teach the concept of Limited Atonement.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

God loves the world; all the unsaved people of the world.


For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
John 3:17

God sent His Son so that the people of the world could be saved.

 

[electedbyHim]

No Jesus certainly did not teach the concept of Limited Atonement.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

God loves the world; all the unsaved people of the world.


For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
John 3:17

God sent His Son so that the people of the world could be saved.

He did, you just deny His words.

Jesus on Limited Atonement.

John 10:11
John 10:15
Matthew 26:28
Luke 19:10
John 6:35-40

 

[JLB]

John 10:11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.
John 10:15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.

The dialog you took out of context began earlier between Jesus and the Pharisee’s that came about over the blind man He healed.

Jesus shows how people become His sheep… by believing not by being chosen for salvation.

Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when He had found him, He said to him, “Do you believe in the Son of God?”
He answered and said, “Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?”
And Jesus said to him, “You have both seen Him and it is He who is talking with you.”
Then he said, “Lord, I believe!” And he worshiped Him.
And Jesus said, “For judgment I have come into this world, that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may be made blind.”
Then some of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these words, and said to Him, “Are we blind also?” John 9:35-40


Jesus shed blood is not limited.

It’s for the people of the world to become His sheep.

It’s also for our sins, that we can confess our sins and be forgiven.

And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 2:2


Can you explain who is excluded (with scripture) from the precious blood of Jesus being a propitiation for our sins as well as the world?


JLB

 

[JLB]

He did, you just deny His words.

Jesus on Limited Atonement.

John 10:11
John 10:15
Matthew 26:28
Luke 19:10
John 6:35-40

You will have to use actual scripture to show your point of how Jesus atoning blood is somehow excluded from certain people.

You just posted some scripture references with scripture.

 

[JLB]

He did, you just deny His words.

Jesus on Limited Atonement.

John 10:11
John 10:15
Matthew 26:28
Luke 19:10
John 6:35-40

His sheep refers to people who are saved.

The way we are saved is by believing.

 

[electedbyHim]

You will have to use actual scripture to show your point of how Jesus atoning blood is somehow excluded from certain people.

You just posted some scripture references with scripture.

You will just deny His words and take it out of context anyhow.

No worries.

 

[electedbyHim]

The Arminians say, 'Christ died for all men.' Ask them what they mean by it. Did Christ die so as to secure the salvation of all men? They say, 'No, certainly not.' We ask them the next question: Did Christ die so as to secure the salvation of any man in particular? They answer 'No.' They are obliged to admit this, if they are consistent. They say, 'No; Christ has died that any man may be saved if ?' and then follow certain conditions of salvation. Now, who is it that limits the death of Christ? Why, you. You say that Christ did not die so as infallibly to secure the salvation of anybody. We beg your pardon, when you say we limit Christ's death; we say, 'No, my dear sir, it is you that do it.' We say Christ so died that he infallibly secured the salvation of a multitude that no man can number, who through Christ's death not only may be saved, but are saved, must be saved and cannot by any possibility run the hazard of being anything but saved. You are welcome to your atonement; you may keep it. We will never renounce ours for the sake of it.

Charles Spurgeon

 

[JLB]

The Arminians say, 'Christ died for all men.' Ask them what they mean by it. Did Christ die so as to secure the salvation of all men? They say, 'No, certainly not.' We ask them the next question: Did Christ die so as to secure the salvation of any man in particular? They answer 'No.' They are obliged to admit this, if they are consistent. They say, 'No; Christ has died that any man may be saved if ?' and then follow certain conditions of salvation. Now, who is it that limits the death of Christ? Why, you. You say that Christ did not die so as infallibly to secure the salvation of anybody. We beg your pardon, when you say we limit Christ's death; we say, 'No, my dear sir, it is you that do it.' We say Christ so died that he infallibly secured the salvation of a multitude that no man can number, who through Christ's death not only may be saved, but are saved, must be saved and cannot by any possibility run the hazard of being anything but saved. You are welcome to your atonement; you may keep it. We will never renounce ours for the sake of it.

Charles Spurgeon

It’s doesn’t matter what Arminians say or Charles Spurgeon.

Stick to what scripture says.

Those who believe are saved.

Those who are saved are idiomatically called His sheep

His blood what shed for our sins as well as the world.

And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1John 2:2


Ours sins = Saved people; His sheep

The world = unsaved people.


Who is excluded?

 

[electedbyHim]

It’s doesn’t matter what Arminians say or Charles Spurgeon.

Stick to what scripture says.

Those who believe are saved.

Those who are saved are idiomatically called His sheep

His blood what shed for our sins as well as the world.

And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1John 2:2


Ours sins = Saved people; His sheep

The world = unsaved people.


Who is excluded?

Those who are not saved are not the elect, Christ's blood did not cover their sins.

You argue against something you do not understand abd that is Limited Atonement.

 

[Whatever]

Can you explain who is excluded (with scripture) from the precious blood of Jesus being a propitiation for our sins as well as the world?

No amount of explaining will help you see, when all you have is "the world" stuck in your head.

 

[Whatever]

"For God so loved THE WORLD, that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

You are making the same mistake in fixating on the word "World" and "whosoever."

Here are some versions more closely aligned with the Greek.
Christian Standard Bible
16 For God loved the world in this way: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

Common English Bible
16 God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him won’t perish but will have eternal life.

The Father did not sent His Son to die for a bunch of nameless, faceless whosoevers.
Jesus tells what the Father's purpose was.

John 6:39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

You guys fixate on the word "world." Well here is the closest Jesus gets to that:

John 17:2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

The Father has given Jesus authority over all flesh (the whole world) but He only gives life to those the Father has given to Him out of the world. That is because all those the Father has given to Jesus will come to Him.
And at the end of the book (Revelation) it tells us that Jesus has saved some people out of the World.

Rev_5:9 And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation
Heb 2:10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Again, the Father's purpose was to bring many sons to glory, not everybody. These many sons were given to Jesus to redeem them by His blood and He lost none of them.

 

[JLB]

No amount of explaining will help you see, when all you have is "the world" stuck in your head.

I guess you have no explanation for the truth of the scriptures so all you have is attacking me with derogatory comments.


And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 2:2


Who would you say is excluded from His atonement for sins by this passage?

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

Going down the list of TULIP, we come to the doctrine of Limited Atonement.

This is the definition I found on Google. If someone has a different definition for Limited Atonement then please share it here.


Limited atonement" is a Christian theological doctrine that states Jesus Christ died only for a select group of people, known as the "elect," meaning that while his death was sufficient for everyone, the benefits of his sacrifice are only applied to those God has chosen for salvation beforehand; it's often considered a key part of Calvinist theology and is referred to as the "L" in the acronym "TULIP" which stands for the five points of Calvinism.

Key points about limited atonement:

Focus on the elect:
This doctrine emphasizes that Jesus' death was specifically intended to redeem only those individuals God has already chosen for salvation, not everyone in the world.


Like Unconditional Election, the phrase Limited Atonement is not found in scripture.

However, this thread seeks to see if the idea or concept of Limited Atonement is found in scripture or not.


Let’s start with the words of Jesus.


And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die. John 12:32-33 KJV

Jesus Himself plainly stated that by His crucifixion He would draw all men unto Himself.

So His intent is for all men to be drawn to Himself.


Does that automatically mean all men will be saved?


No, only those who believe in Him will be saved.

Plainly the condition for salvation is to believe.


Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12


So, like the Unconditional Election and Total Depravity, we see there is no real evidence in scripture for Limited Atonement”.


The Lord desires all men to be drawn to Himself.

The Lord desires all men to be saved.


Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Timothy 2:1-4

Limited Atonement is clearly shown in Jesus' words in John 6 and 10, especially chapter 10. Jesus' salvation is sufficient for all humans but only efficient in the lives of true believers:
Joh 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
Joh 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.
Joh 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
Joh 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Joh 10:11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me,
Joh 10:15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.

 

[Fish153]

Those who are not saved are not the elect, Christ's blood did not cover their sins.

You argue against something you do not understand abd that is Limited Atonement.

ElectedByHim/Bruce.Leiter----

I believe Charles Spurgeon was one of the greatest Preachers who ever lived. I love his sermons! But I still have to say I disagree with him on Limited Atonement. I believe that the reason HELL will be so bad for those who wind up there is that they will realize that they HAD A WAY for salvation and REJECTED IT. When they realize that JESUS DIED FOR THEM and they refused that salvation that will make Hell especially excruciating for them. I believe that the wrath placed on Jesus for each of them will return upon their own heads. They will be destroyed with everlasting destruction because they refused to accept the love of the truth that they might be saved.

If Jesus did not die for them and they wind up in Hell where is the sting and burn for having missed salvation??
It cannot be true that Jesus only shed his blood for the elect. This "consigns" people to hell. I have heard the argument that God did not "assign" them to hell, that he simply "did not choose" them for salvation. I'm sorry but that argument does not align with scripture. John 3:16,17 tells a completely different story.

As I said earlier, I'm a "4 point Calvinist" as I do not believe that Limited Atonement is scriptural.

I truly believe that because God is infinite in wisdom and in His very nature that we are unable to fully understand "election". There is a mystery in it---one that we will not understand until eternity.

 

[JLB]

Limited Atonement is clearly shown in Jesus' words in John 6 and 10, especially chapter 10. Jesus' salvation is sufficient for all humans but only efficient in the lives of true believers:
Joh 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
Joh 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.
Joh 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
Joh 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Joh 10:11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me,
Joh 10:15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Limited Atonement is not mentioned once in any statement Jesus made. Ever.