Matthew 25 supports Pre-trib

[Cyberseeker]

Okay, Im being the 'Devils advocate' here but I want to find out what other post-tribbers have to say about this. We know from Matthew 25 that Jesus Christ will divide the sheep on His right hand and the goats on His left after he returns. Matthew 25:31-34 says,

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world ...."

Then in Matthew 25:41,

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels ...."

Now if all the believers were raptured just before Jesus Christ returned, (ie. posttrib) there would be no sheep left on earth to divide - only goats.

1. How do posties respond to this argument?
2. What do posties say the sheep/goat judgement is?

 

[Hitch]

Christ returns to raise the dead, 'all who are in the graves' at the end of history.Judgment follows.

 

[Elijah674]

Okay, Im being the 'Devils advocate' here but I want to find out what other post-tribbers have to say about this. We know from Matthew 25 that Jesus Christ will divide the sheep on His right hand and the goats on His left after he returns. Matthew 25:31-34 says,
Then in Matthew 25:41,
Now if all the believers were raptured just before Jesus Christ returned, (ie. posttrib) there would be no sheep left on earth to divide - only goats.

1. How do posties respond to this argument?
2. What do posties say the sheep/goat judgement is?

Hi, where you been? (S.C. talk!;)) Have missed'ya.

Matt. 25 is a parable that has two repeats. (Eccl. 1:9-10 + Eccl. 3:15 + Gen. 41:32 Documents how God does things!:yes)

Regardless Christ gave us EXACT information in Mark 4:33-34 (+ you look them up) that He would 'expound ALL THINGS to His disciples'. OK: Where did He do that? Matt. 10:5-6 on finds the two/time repeat expounded. See verse 15! Matt. 25:10 has a closed door of probation with old Israel choosing a new leader. Matt. 23:38 found the 'HOUSE DESOLATE' of Christ. So who took over the house? We have [NO KING BUT CAESAR] was their Cry!

And pretrib? pretribJudgement had to be with the [HOUSE OF GOD FIRST] is all. No one is going anywhere yet, huh! 1 Peter 4:17 Documents that Judgement starts with who first? They were CUT OFF IN THE MIDST OF THE WEEK as the House of God. It was the Remnant who were identified in Matt. 10:5-6 on who made up the Acts Church Fold. (compare Rev. 2:5 with Rev. 3:16 + verse 9 ibid.)

But you are 100% correct that both the lost & the saved will be here when Christ returns! Also the preterist ones! It is before then that there will be a great seperation of the lost & the saved ones. 2 Thess. 2:1-4 + 666 will do this. Christ Documents that when He comes, He 'brings His reward with Him'. Rev. 22:12 It is all done except the Judgement for the executional stage which is judged during the 1000 years by the wicked lost ones record books. Eccl. 12:13-14.

--Elijah

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

This Matthew 25 text is tough to decipher as we are left to guess about when these events were to occur. Was it a continuation of the prophecy Jesus was discussing in chapter 24 that was to be fulfilled in that generation or was it speaking of a future time when Jesus would bring the Kingdom Reign to this world? Because of the following words of Jesus which reads: "When the Son of Man arrives in his glory along with all the messengers, he will sit down on his glorious throne, and all nations will be led before him. Then he will separate the people...", it would appear that the 2nd possibility is more logical, but before we reach a conclusion we must know whether these were original words of Jesus or was he repeating something spoken by the prophets of old. And if he was reinterating and thus more completely explaining something said earlier we must link them together in order to get a full understanding.
Now, let's consider Ezekiel 34, which says:
'And from among you, My sheep;</I> says Jehovah the Lord, {Look!} I'll separate sheep from the sheep among you, and the rams from the goats.'
Then the Prophecy goes on to say (in verses 20-23):
'Because of this,</I> says Jehovah the Lord, {Look!} I'll separate the strong from the weak. For, you pushed them away with your shoulders and sides, and the weak you gored with your horns… you squeezed them out and pushed them aside! So, I will rescue My sheep, and no more will they serve as [your] plunder, for I will judge between ram and ram. I will raise a shepherd for them, and he (My servant David) will tend them… he'll care for them and be their shepherd.'
So, the prophecy in Ezekiel clearly seems to be speaking of the time when Jesus (My servant David) does this separating work, which Jesus spoke of at Matthew 25:31-33. Now notice God's words that precede the description of the separating work in Ezekiel 34:13:
'Then, from the nations I'll lead them, and gather them from many regions, then bring them [back] to their land. And on IsraEl's mountains I'll graze them… in the valleys and homes of the land.'
So it is quite possible thatthe separating of the sheep from the goats in Ezekiel and Matthew isn't a separating that is to go on among the worldly nations, but of those within the lost sheep of IsraEl. It is also possible that Jesus was broadening the fulfillment of Ezekiel 34's prophecy in Matthew 25 to have an 'end of the age' fulfillment that centered around the Jews and the Sinai Covenant as well as an ultimate fulfillment that takes place after the resurrection of the just and the unjust.

 

[Cyberseeker]

Prominent pre-trib preacher John F. MacArthur uses this as an argument against post-trib. Here it is cut n' pasted from his website:

The sheep and goat judgment. In Matthew, chapter 25, at the end of the tribulation period--Matthew 25, you have a judgment occurring. We know that it is at the end of the tribulation because it discusses the tribulation period in chapter 24. We know that the "abomination of desolation" occurs in the tribulation (24:15 and all these things and so forth), and then verse 31 of Chapter 25, "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory." Now what's that? That's not the rapture is it? That has got to be the Second Coming to set up the Kingdom--"when he comes in His glory to sit on His throne."

Now the post-tribulation position says this--watch--that at the end of the seven years there is a quick rapture and a quick return--you go through the tribulation and then "up and back." There is a big problem with that and it is this: if all the regenerate people go up and come back, then how come when Christ comes back the first thing He does is separate the sheep from the goats--who are the sheep? See? Who are the sheep? They can't be Christians because there aren't any left--they all got raptured. But if you move the rapture to the beginning of the seven years, then you have a seven year period in which people will be saved that will constitute the sheep at the end of the tribulation--understand?

So if you jam it all at the end--I see that as the major problem of the post-tribulational view--where do you get the sheep for the sheep and goat judgment, because if Christ takes all of us up and comes right back, then there aren't any sheep left--it's not going to be a problem to say, "You sheep come over and go into my kingdom, and you goats here..."--there aren't any sheep left, they have already been raptured and glorified and all set. That's the first problem.​

Im interested in hearing how to rebut this logic because (lets be fair :halo) it is a fair point.

 

[Lehigh3]

Matt.25 is no different than Matt. 24, which proves Jesus' Coming was immediately after the the tribulation of those days- IOWs post-trib. proof.

Yes T.O.T, & God's promise to Abraham was that he should be the father of many nations.

"In our Lord's time it was usual to speak of the inhabitants of Palestine as consisting of several nations. Josephus speaks of 'the nation of the Galileans, often with a king of its own; so also with Samaria, Idumea, Galilee, Perea, Batanea, Albilene- all of which had at different times princes with the title of Ethnarch, a name which signifies the ruler of a nation. In doing so does no violence to the language to understand 'all the nations' of Palestine or 'all the tribes of the land.'
This view receives strong confirmation from the fact that the same phrase in the apostolic commission 'Go and teach all the nations' does not seem to have been understood by the disciples as referring to the whole population of the globe, or to any nations beyond Palestine." - The Parousia, James Stuart Russell, 1878.

 

[n2thelight]

Christ returns to raise the dead, 'all who are in the graves' at the end of history.Judgment follows.

There is noone in the graves,when we die,we instantly return to the father


Ecclesiastes 12:6 "Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern."


Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it."

 

[Hitch]

There is noone in the graves,when we die,we instantly return to the father


Ecclesiastes 12:6 "Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern."


Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it."

1. John 5:28
   Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Go away.

 

[n2thelight]

1. John 5:28
   Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Go away.

I Peter 3:19 "By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison,"

These spirits that Christ preached to in prison, where the spirits of the saints that died prior to His death on the cross.

I Peter 3:20 "Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering for God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."

Stop with the false doctrine's and I just may go away!!!!

 

[Lehigh3]

There is noone in the graves,when we die,we instantly return to the father


Ecclesiastes 12:6 "Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern."


Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it."

I think Solomon was correct in the long run. But in between his time & AD70, Daniel & faithful co. were sequestered in Hades or Sheol, awaiting their final inheritance. Awaiting for "the sons of God that they shouldn't be made perfect without us." (Romans 8)
And those sons of God were the apostles & 1st disciples before the resurrection of the dead in AD70.

Christ, who had the keys to death & hades, raised the dead in AD70. Ever since then, we do not have to wait in hades or sheol, but go right to heaven, spiritually perfected.

Now, your examples in 1 peter 3:19-20 support Christian universalism. Are you aware of that?
I do not agree.
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us[e] to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited[f] in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

What I think is being said here is an example of God having had Noah preach to those "in the flesh" ABOUT living in the spirit instead of the flesh, similar as in Peter's day the gospel was preached. But their salvation was dependent upon being converted & living in the Spirit, rather than the flesh.