'Must learn to be before we try doing'

[MrVersatile48]

That's an attempt to summarise simply what is all too often confused here by big words & theological jargon:- :roll:

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/200 ... 33.66.html

Let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater - let's help the baby both to avoid drowning & learn to swim well :wink:

I've often said that all the 'Net forums I've been in over the past 5 years have had many more viewers than posters - often 10/20 times as many views as posts, yes? 8-)

I've often said that we need to remember that both young believers & non-believers feel drawn to investigate Christianity & read our threads, but never post - sometimes because they don't even know what questions they need to ask in order to understand & learn from what they read :multi:

As I may only have time to post links to the other related article in today's CT - (& as 3/4 nearby conversations have already almost made me forget!) - I'll just briefly give my overall impression of that first article

First, as an evangelical, the use of the words 'liturgy'/liturgical' in both the title & the text rang the alarm bells: sales experience too made me see the bulk of the article as attempting to win evangelicals' trust enough to 'play a blinder' at the end, hoping we wouldn't see that Chan's opening chapter is accurate enough, @ what the Bible teaches that the church is, that we will then swallow the sleeping draught of human liturgy & ritual in later chapters

Having trained in interdenominational evangelical Bible College & been involved in music/drama ministries going to evangelical churches of many labels, I don't accept his obviously weak assertion that folk who love God's Word & seek to base all they do on God's Word don't study & preach @ the church being the people 'called out of darkness into light, out of death into life' - not a stone edifice but 'living stones, with Christ as the Chief Cornerstone' :angel:

Maybe, before I can get back to post the other links in a reply, someone might like to explain the word liturgy (& 1/2 other words in the article that would leave the average young believer/unbeliever with glazed eyes, yes?) :robot:

All the churches I know well make sure that they advise folk to study & train before going on mission/preaching/teaching etc

Right back..

God bless!

Ian

 

[MrVersatile48]

I only had time to speed read this one - not easy with toothache & several conversations nearby:-

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/200 ... -42.0.html

I'll just say for now that the Bible does NOT teach trans-substantiation: when Jesus said, "This bread is My body..this cup is My blood", He clearly meant REPRESENTS - as He was actually standing there


Hebrews 2 & Hebrews 4 etc are very clear - Christ's atoning sacrifice was 'once-for-all' - not to be repeated as the RC false doctrine of the 'Mass' claims

Hebrews 2 (New International Version)

Warning to Pay Attention

1We must pay more careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. 2For if the message spoken by angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, 3how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation?

This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. 4God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

Jesus Made Like His Brothers

5It is not to angels that he has subjected the world to come, about which we are speaking. 6But there is a place where someone has testified:
"What is man that you are mindful of him,
the son of man that you care for him?
7You made him a little[a] lower than the angels;
you crowned him with glory and honor
8and put everything under his feet?

In putting everything under him, God left nothing that is not subject to him. Yet at present we do not see everything subject to him.

9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

10In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering. 11Both the one who makes men holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers. 12He says,
"I will declare your name to my brothers;
in the presence of the congregation I will sing your praises."[c] 13And again,
"I will put my trust in him."[d] And again he says,
"Here am I, and the children God has given me."[e]

14Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of deathâ€â€that is, the devil 15and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.

16For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham's descendants. 17For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for[f]the sins of the people. 18Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

Footnotes:

Hebrews 2:7 Or him for a little while; also in verse 9
Hebrews 2:8 Psalm 8:4-6
Hebrews 2:12 Psalm 22:22
Hebrews 2:13 Isaiah 8:17
Hebrews 2:13 Isaiah 8:18
Hebrews 2:17 Or and that he might turn aside God's wrath, taking away


Hebrews 4 (New International Version)

A Sabbath-Rest for the People of God

1Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it.

2For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith.[a] 3

Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,
"So I declared on oath in my anger,
'They shall never enter my rest.' " And yet his work has been finished since the creation of the world. 4For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: "And on the seventh day God rested from all his work."[c] 5And again in the passage above he says, "They shall never enter my rest."
6It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience. 7Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later he spoke through David, as was said before:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts."[d] 8For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day.

9There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his.

11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.

12For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. 13Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

Jesus the Great High Priest

14Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens,[e] Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess.

15For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we areâ€â€yet was without sin.

16Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

Footnotes:

Hebrews 4:2 Many manuscripts because they did not share in the faith of those who obeyed
Hebrews 4:3 Psalm 95:11; also in verse 5
Hebrews 4:4 Gen. 2:2
Hebrews 4:7 Psalm 95:7,8
Hebrews 4:14 Or gone into heaven


See 'once for all' @ http://www.BibleGateway.org search

I have the most awful toothache & no more time today


God bless!

Ian

 

[Shvibzik]

I'll just say for now that the Bible does NOT teach trans-substantiation: when Jesus said, "This bread is My body..this cup is My blood", He clearly meant REPRESENTS - as He was actually standing there

This sounds like you're rather playing semantics.... what part of "this is my Body" means "represents"?

Hebrews 2 & Hebrews 4 etc are very clear - Christ's atoning sacrifice was 'once-for-all' - not to be repeated as the RC false doctrine of the 'Mass' claims

You're absolutely right when you say that Christ's sacrifice was once and for all. The Catholic Church does not claim to repeat Christ's sacrifice. At the elevation of the host, the priest simply stands "in persona Christi" - in the person of Christ, and makes Christ's eternal sacrifice present for all those around.

The early Church obviously thought of the Mass as a sacrifice:

"Assemble on the Lord’s day, and break bread and offer the Eucharist; but first make confession of your faults, so that your sacrifice may be a pure one. Anyone who has a difference with his fellow is not to take part with you until he has been reconciled, so as to avoid any profanation of your sacrifice [Matt. 5:23–24]. For this is the offering of which the Lord has said, ‘Everywhere and always bring me a sacrifice that is undefiled, for I am a great king, says the Lord, and my name is the wonder of nations’ [Mal. 1:11, 14]" (Didache 14 [A.D. 70]).

Pope Clement I



"Our sin will not be small if we eject from the episcopate those who blamelessly and holily have offered its sacrifices. Blessed are those presbyters who have already finished their course, and who have obtained a fruitful and perfect release" (Letter to the Corinthians 44:4–5 [A.D. 80]).

Ignatius of Antioch



"Make certain, therefore, that you all observe one common Eucharist; for there is but one Body of our Lord Jesus Christ, and but one cup of union with his Blood, and one single altar of sacrificeâ€â€even as there is also but one bishop, with his clergy and my own fellow servitors, the deacons. This will ensure that all your doings are in full accord with the will of God" (Letter to the Philadelphians 4 [A.D. 110]).

Irenaeus



"He took from among creation that which is bread, and gave thanks, saying, ‘This is my body.’ The cup likewise, which is from among the creation to which we belong, he confessed to be his blood. He taught the new sacrifice of the new covenant, of which Malachi, one of the twelve [minor] prophets, had signified beforehand: ‘You do not do my will, says the Lord Almighty, and I will not accept a sacrifice at your hands. For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is glorified among the Gentiles, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure sacrifice; for great is my name among the Gentiles, says the Lord Almighty’ [Mal. 1:10–11]. By these words he makes it plain that the former people will cease to make offerings to God; but that in every place sacrifice will be offered to him, and indeed, a pure one, for his name is glorified among the Gentiles" (Against Heresies 4:17:5 [A.D. 189]).

[/i]

 

[francisdesales]

Shvibzik,

Well done...

To add:

Hebrews 2 & Hebrews 4 etc are very clear - Christ's atoning sacrifice was 'once-for-all' - not to be repeated as the RC false doctrine of the 'Mass' claims

The Church never makes the claim to be "repeating" anything. The Council of Trent specifically addressed this false charge by saying it is the exact SAME sacrifice of Calvary, presented in an unbloody fashion. Christ is eternal and the Eucharistic sacrifice is made present to men of all times. What Christ did was done by GOD, who transcends time.

Regards

 

[MrVersatile48]

Both of you speak of presenting a sacrifice

The Bible specifically says, several times, that Christ Himself made one sacrifice of Himself - then sat down at the right hand of the Father

The Greek word, tetelesthai - translated, "It is finished!" - was the commercial word for 'paid in full'

Again, when Jesus said, "This is My body...this is My blood", He obviously meant that the bread & the wine were mere symbols, because He was actually there, fully embodied in Himself

He said "eat this bread...drink this cup in remembrance of Me"
As 1 Corinthians 11 explains, we break the bread to remind ourselves that His body was broken - & drink the cup to remind ourselves that His blood was shed - to pay the penalty for all our sins

RC catechism does wrongly teach trans-substantiation & a repeated 'bloodless sacrifice' as part of its keeping folk in fear, denying them the assurance of salvation that God wants His people to have

1 John 5 says:-

Faith in the Son of God

1Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well.

2This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. 3This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, 4for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.
6This is the one who came by water and bloodâ€â€Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.

7For there are three that testify: 8the[a] Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

9We accept man's testimony, but God's testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. 10Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son.

11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

13I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

But RC dogma falsely teaches a non-existent 'Purgatory' - the cry of 'santo subito' at JP2's funeral - witnessed by over a billion folk & read about, word for word by many more - is because by RC dogma, he went to this non-existent 'Purgatory'

The Bible says, "It is appointed to man to die once & after that, the Judgement" - no place of 2nd chances

 

[Shvibzik]

RC catechism does wrongly teach trans-substantiation & a repeated 'bloodless sacrifice' as part of its keeping folk in fear, denying them the assurance of salvation that God wants His people to have

In that case, please explain what Christ meant when he said, "Unless you eat my Body and drink my Blood, you shall not have life within you." (John 6:54)