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Nephilims

Lewis

Member
The verses below has given many trouble including me. About angels mating with human women. Some people say they did, some say they did not. I would like you all to look at this link and tell me what you think. now I have heard both sides through the years, so let me hear from you all
http://www.wordoftruthradio.com/questions/50.html


Genesis 6

1And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

2That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

3And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

4There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
 
Two views come to mind.

FIRST
Gen. 6:1-2 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

Does Jude have anything to add?: And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Evan as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Gen. 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. What does it mean, 'giants?' How are giants related to the end times? The passages reads, 'and also after that.' What do you make of that?

Num. 13:33 And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight. And lets not forget about Goliath.

http://www.khouse.org/articles/1996/43/
http://www.khouse.org/articles/1997/110/
http://www.khouse.org/articles/1997/22/

Really, what do you think the days of Noah were like?

When the Bible tells us Noah was perfect in his generations (tamin=without blemish, physical perfection, and not moral. Ex. 12:5; 29:1. Lev. 1:3, 10; 3:1, 6; 4:3, 23, 28, 32; 5:15, 18; 6:6; 9:2, 3; 14:10; 22:19; 23:12, 18. Num. 6:14; 28:19, 31; 29:2, 8, 13, 20, 23, 29, 32, 36. Ezek. 43:22, 23, 25; 45:18, 23; 46:4, 6, 13) do you believe he was morally pure or physically pure? And what do you base this on?


SECOND
John Gill wrote,

Noah was a just man; not only before men, but in the sight of God; and not by his own works of righteousness, for no man is just by them before God, but by the righteousness of the promised seed, the Messiah; for he "became heir of the righteousness which is by faith", Heb_11:7 the righteousness which was to be brought in by the Son of God, and which was revealed to him from faith to faith; and which by faith he received and lived upon, as every just man does, and believed in as his justifying righteousness before God; though he also lived a holy and righteous conversation before men, which may rather be intended in the next part of his character:

and perfect in his generations; not that he was perfectly holy, or free from sin, but was a partaker of the true grace of God; was sincere and upright in heart and life; lived an unblemished life and conversation, untainted with the gross corruptions of that age he lived in, which he escaped through the knowledge, grace, and fear of God; and therefore it is added, that he was holy, upright, and blameless "in his generations": among the men of the several generations he lived in, as in the generation before the flood, which was very corrupt indeed, and which corruption was the cause of that; and in the generation after the flood: or "in his ages" (w), in the several stages of his life, in youth and in old age; he was throughout the whole course of his life a holy good man."

Gen 6:4 - There were giants in the earth in those days,.... That is, in the days before the sons of God took the daughters of men for wives, in such a general manner as before declared, or before the declension and apostasy became so universal; even in the times of Jared, as the Arabic writers (n) understand it, who say that these giants were begotten on the daughters of Cain by the children of Seth, who went down from the mountain to them in the days of Jared, see Gen_5:20 the word "Nephilim" comes from a word which signifies to fall; and these might be so called, either because they made their fear to fall upon men, or men, through fear, to fall before them, because of their height and strength; or rather because they fell and rushed on men with great violence, and oppressed them in a cruel and tyrannical manner; or, as some think, because they fell off and were apostates from the true religion, which is much better than to understand them of apostate angels, whom the Targum of Jonathan mentions by name, and calls them Schanchazai and Uziel, who fell from heaven, and were in the earth in those days:

and also after that, which shows that the preceding clause respects giants in former times:

when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, came into their houses and chambers, and lay with them:

and they bare children unto them, or giants unto them, as may be supplied from the former clause; for the sense is, as there were giants before this general defection, so there were at this time, when there was a mixture of the Cainites and Sethites; which were the offspring of the sons of God, or posterity of Seth, mixing with the daughters of men, or the posterity of Cain; for this is not to be understood after the flood, as Aben Ezra, Ben Melech; and so they are described in the following words:

the same became mighty men; for tallness and strength, for power and dominion, for tyranny and oppression:

which were of old: like those that were of old before; or who in after times were spoken of, as in the days of old:

men of renown, or "of name" (o); whose names were often made mention of, both for their size and for their wickedness; they were much talked of, and extolled for their exploits, and even wicked ones: they were famous men, or rather infamous; for some men get a name in the world, not for their goodness, but for their greatness, and sometimes for their great wickedness; which sense is countenanced by what follows: that there were giants in these early times is confirmed by the testimony of many Heathen writers; such were the Titans that made war against Saturn, begotten by Ouranus, who were not only of bulky bodies, but of invincible strength, as Apollodorus (p) relates, and Berosus (q) speaks of a city about Lebanon, called Enos, which was a city of giants, who were men of vast bodies, and of great strength, inventors of arms and music, were cannibals, and exceedingly debauched.

(n) Elmacinus & Patricides apud Hottinger, p. 235, 236. (o) אנשי השם "viri nominis", Montanus. (p) De Origine Deorum, l. 1. p. 14. (q) Antiqu. l. 1. fol. 5. 2. vid. Horat. Carmin, l. 2. Ode. 19. Ovid Metamorph. l. 1. Fab. 1.

_______________________________________

According to the note in my Reformation Study Bible on Gen. 6:2, "These have been identified as Sethites [the traditional Christian interpretation], as angels [the earliest Jewish interpretation; cf. Job 1:6], and as royal tyrannical successors to Lamech who gathered harems [porposed by rabbis of the second-century ad]. All three interpretations can be defended linguistically. On the surface, the first interpretation best fits the immediate preceding context [a contrast of the curse-laden line of Cain with godly line of Seth], but it fails to explain adequately how "daughter of men" refers specifically to Cainite women. The second view has ancient support, but seems to contradict Jesus' statement that angels do not marry [Mark 12:25] and does not explain why the focus is on mortals [v. 3] and the judgement on them [vv.5-7]. The third interpratation best explains the phrase "of all whom they chose" [12:10-20; 20:1; 1 Sam. 11] but lacks as much ancient support. The best solution is probably a combination of the last two. These human offspring are also the spiritual offspring of Satan [3:15], empowered by demons [cf. Deut. 32:17]

NOW, since then I've had to reconsider. Can angels procreate, are they male nor female or are they spirit beings? Who were these "giants?"


Peace,

jm
 
Lewis,
Thanks for the cool link!
I tend to agree with their conclusion. The reference that you posted seems to me to speak of an unequal yoke. Believers in God married to pagans.
1Cr 15:33 Do not be deceived: "Bad company corrupts good morals." (NASB) That got Solomon in trouble too.
I also agree with their statements about angels, and the term "sons of God".
Just a thought ~ the pagans in this situation could have been demon possessed~~~

teu25.gif
 
Does Jude have anything to add?: And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Evan as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
That is key Scripture.
 
We KNOW that WE ARE the Sons of God that accept God into our hearts and are obedient to Him. There WERE Sons of God THEN as well. Now, WHO were these Sons of God? Simple really, they WERE the descendants of Adam and Eve. Those that KNEW God. Those WHO contained the 'Breath of Life'.

Daughters of men seems to confuse MANY. We see that Noah was PERFECT in his 'generations'. This is NOT as confusing as many seem to find it. Noah was a DIRECT descendant of Adam and Eve without ANY mixing of blood-lines From Adam and Eve all the way up to Noah. And the REASON that Noah was chosen to 'start over', was the 'blood line'. His was PURE. While ALL the other descendants of Adam and Eve had gone 'outside' their blood lines by the time of Noah, the line that produced Noah HAD NOT.

The 'tricky part' is WHO were the 'daughters of men'? This is simple too. But, one must put aside the traditional teachings of the churches and actually READ The Word in order to discern this. It's SO simple and SO obvious that most are unable to 'see it' clearly for the sake of 'tradition'.

Moses was TOTALLY limited to the UNDERSTANDING of his time. No study of ANYTHING. No outside knowledge other than what was revealed by God. And even this was probably only barely understood at the time. Someone could sit me down and go over mathematical formula in detail, but, until I had an understanding of it, it may as well be a foreign language. This is NO different than the understanding of Moses concerning MUCH of God's Word. He wrote it down but much was NOT understood.

Prophecy is almost ALWAYS thus. It is RARELY meant for those that 'offer' it. It is meant to be understood to BE God's Word ONCE IT HAS BEEN FULFILLED. Daniel understood only a small part of what he offered. John understood little of what he offered. For 'what' these offered was meant for a time much later than the one in which they lived.

No different than the words offered by Moses concerning Noah. But there IS understanding to be grasped. It just takes a 'less than traditional' aproach. A much SIMPLER aproach and a willingness to 'see' the 'truth'.

MEC
 
Lewis W said:
The verses below has given many trouble including me. About angels mating with human women. Some people say they did, some say they did not. I would like you all to look at this link and tell me what you think. now I have heard both sides through the years, so let me hear from you all
http://www.wordoftruthradio.com/questions/50.html

What's the touble? I think your link addresses this very well. The people of wicked cultures were corrupting the people of good cultures. So God wiped the human population away and started over with Noah's family.

The sons of God, daughters of men, and the giants were all humans.
 
Poke said:
Lewis W said:
The verses below has given many trouble including me. About angels mating with human women. Some people say they did, some say they did not. I would like you all to look at this link and tell me what you think. now I have heard both sides through the years, so let me hear from you all
http://www.wordoftruthradio.com/questions/50.html

What's the touble? I think your link addresses this very well. The people of wicked cultures were corrupting the people of good cultures. So God wiped the human population away and started over with Noah's family.

The sons of God, daughters of men, and the giants were all humans.

The 'neat thing' if you accept this understanding is that there was 'no need' for a 'world wide' flood. There was ONLY a 'need' to destroy those that were of the lineage of Adam and Eve. Those that 'did not' KNOW God were NOT 'the problem'. The 'problem' was those that DID have the blood of Adam and Eve flowing in their veins. For the cause of 'mating' with 'others' did their 'hearts become EVIL continually'. Those that 'didn't' know God were NOT, nor have they EVER, been held to the 'same' level of accountability as those that DO. And 'how far' do you really believe that the direct descendants of Adam and Eve had migrated over fifteen hundred years or so? Even two thousand years?

MEC
 
Here is my thing, did angels really mate with human women ? Now if I can remember right, angels are huge, they are giants. But also the word giant in the Hebrew is the word naphal, which means to fall. Now people like Theodore H Epp, thinks that these were not angels because in that day people called robbers or bandits, Giants, because the word Giant is naphal which means to fall. And they were saying that these giants would fall upon the people. Meaning robbing them hurting them and so forth. So that is part of what Epps, thinks. And he also pointed out that Jesus said angels neither marry or are given in marriage. And Jesus did say that. So now can you see where the problems come in at ? And then on the other hand many, and I mean many think that the angels did mate with human women. My thing is, that angels have to get permission from God to do such, unless these were the demonic angels that were cast to the earth, so take your pick.
 
Lewis W said:
The verses below has given many trouble including me. About angels mating with human women. Some people say they did, some say they did not. I would like you all to look at this link and tell me what you think. now I have heard both sides through the years, so let me hear from you all
http://www.wordoftruthradio.com/questions/50.html


Genesis 6

1And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

2That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

3And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

4There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

The passage definately DOES teach that these beings mated with earth women. Now, whether that really happened is another question, (along with a lot of other stuff in the bible), but as far as whether Gen.6 alludes to this (supposed) event I feel there is no question. This is gone into detail in the book of Enoch. Jude mentions it also. Most churches teach the "sons of God" were only human, which makes the whole passage rather pointless. The churches probably feel that to teach what the passage really intends sounds a bit too much like a headline from one of those nutty supermarket tabloids :popcorn: For whatever reason, they shy from it.
 
Perhaps the 'reason' that it is not taught MORE clearly is 'lack' of understanding. What if the 'truth' is that there were TWO separate groups of humans. One creation that did NOT know God and another that did. And it was 'this' mating that brought about the wicked hearts refered to? No need for fantastic tales of 'angels mating with women'. Just a simple inbreeding of God's chosen with 'others'. Nothing new and something that we have examples of through out the History of the Hebrews/Jews.

And all one need do to have an 'actual understanding' of what I offer is READ Genesis. Leave behind the church teachings and simply READ The Word and it becomes aparent that what happened IS what happened. It's man's understanding tainted with centuries of 'church teaching' that has clouded the 'truth'.

But, if you are too lazy to read, I have a question for you; Exactly WHAT does it mean by Noah being PERFECT in his generations. I KNOW the answer to this and it's too simple. Just DIFFERENT than what the churches have taught. The truth often IS.

MEC
 
"The first, amd oldest belief, is the sons of God were fallen angels who consorted with human women, producing giant offspring called nephilim. This view was widely held in the world of the 1st century BE, and was supported by Flavius Josephus, Philo, Eusebius, amd many of the Ante-Nicean Fathers including Justin Martyr, Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Tertullian, Irenaeus, Athenagoras and Commodianus" (http://www.aristotle.net/~bhuie/gen6sons.htm)
 
BradtheImpaler said:
"The first, amd oldest belief, is the sons of God were fallen angels who consorted with human women, producing giant offspring called nephilim. This view was widely held in the world of the 1st century BE, and was supported by Flavius Josephus, Philo, Eusebius, amd many of the Ante-Nicean Fathers including Justin Martyr, Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Tertullian, Irenaeus, Athenagoras and Commodianus" (http://www.aristotle.net/~bhuie/gen6sons.htm)

And MOST of these were likely influenced by their previous pagan understanding of Greek and Roman gods who DID EXACTLY as this belief would indicate. There is MUCH interaction throughout mythology of the gods intermingling with humans PHYSICALLY. Many of the heros of mythology were the product of god/human relations. So it comes as NO surprise that this may have been 'carried over' into Christianity.

But, back to the question of Noah being perfect in his generations. This statement is PERFECTLY obvious. Noah was a DIRECT descendant of Adam and Eve. NO other blood mingled with his. THAT IS EXACTLY WHY he was chosen to 'start over'. He was the ONLY one left, (other than Lot perhaps), whose lineage had NOT been broken through the mating with 'others'.

Now, the NEXT pertinent question; WHO were the 'others'? Angels? Doubtful. For there is LITTLE to even INDICATE such. The MOST LIKELY scenario is that they were 'other' PEOPLE. Humans. Men that had NO communion with God. These that had 'other' gods and DID NOT know the 'true' God. And for this reason those that HAD known God were able to be 'led away' through 'other' belief systems. Spiritual adultery of sorts. And this angered God. Allowing Him to make the decision to 'destroy' ALL who had gone outside their bloodlines, and 'starting over' with Noah who's blood was pure. And we kNOW that the 'life IS IN the Blood'. More to it than biology, it is just as much a matter of the BLOOD being PURELY of A PEOPLE. The Hebrews/Jews were commanded to be 'separate' as a PEOPLE. No different than what happened previous in the situation to which we refer.

MEC
 
No need for fantastic tales of 'angels mating with women'. Just a simple inbreeding of God's chosen with 'others'. Nothing new and something that we have examples of through out the History of the Hebrews/Jews

But Imag, Nephilim keep popping up in the OT (in "those days", before the Flood, "and also after that") There were (supposedly) whole tribes of them that Joshua wiped out and they appear to have been genetic mutants, literal giants. The context of the whole issue indicates that there was a non-human gene introduced into the human race, producing giant, hybrid freaks, which God destroyed in the Flood and later through the Israelites.
 
And this 'mutant' gene has made apearances in our generation. There is still the 'normal' size of adults and the random 'Shaq's' that appear at times. To us, these ARE GIANTS. But what evidence do we actually have that these are mutated from ANGELS? We do have evidence that the Sons of God are those that KNOW God and BELIEVE in Him. We ARE able to BE the Sons of God OURSELVES. No angels there.

Look, the Bible was written for those that ARE willing to ACCEPT it. NO OTHERS. To them, it is JUST another book. There are distinctly TWO separate groups of humans on this planet according to the Word. There are those that BELEIVE, and then there are those that DON'T. When we begin to 'truly understand' this, our understanding goes BEYOND the mere words of the Bible.

MEC
 
Imagican said:
And this 'mutant' gene has made apearances in our generation. There is still the 'normal' size of adults and the random 'Shaq's' that appear at times. To us, these ARE GIANTS. But what evidence do we actually have that these are mutated from ANGELS? We do have evidence that the Sons of God are those that KNOW God and BELIEVE in Him. We ARE able to BE the Sons of God OURSELVES. No angels there.

Look, the Bible was written for those that ARE willing to ACCEPT it. NO OTHERS. To them, it is JUST another book. There are distinctly TWO separate groups of humans on this planet according to the Word. There are those that BELEIVE, and then there are those that DON'T. When we begin to 'truly understand' this, our understanding goes BEYOND the mere words of the Bible.

I'm not saying there is any evidence any of this actually happened, I'm saying that the writers of the bible believed it happened - that the "sons of God" in Gen.6 were fallen angels that fathered giant hybrids. According to the generally accepted measurement of the biblical cubit, Goliath, for example, was over 2 feet taller than Shaq. The Israelites reported that the "sons of Anak" made them look like "grasshoppers" by comparison. What was it about these "sons of God" that made their offspring gigantic? And why was God so upset over "non-mutants" that he flooded the earth and later had the Israelites exterminate them again?
 
I'm not saying there is any evidence any of this actually happened, I'm saying that the writers of the bible believed it happened - that the "sons of God" in Gen.6 were fallen angels that fathered giant hybrids. According to the generally accepted measurement of the biblical cubit, Goliath, for example, was over 2 feet taller than Shaq. The Israelites reported that the "sons of Anak" made them look like "grasshoppers" by comparison. What was it about these "sons of God" that made their offspring gigantic? And why was God so upset over "non-mutants" that he flooded the earth and later had the Israelites exterminate them again?
Angels are huge beings, so their offspring would be huge. But I have come to the conclusion that it was angels that mated with these women of earth. And Jude makes it clear as a bell.
 
Angels are huge beings, so their offspring would be huge. But I have come to the conclusion that it was angels that mated with these women of earth. And Jude makes it clear as a bell.

Well, I agree with you that's what Jude indicates (as to whether it's a myth, that's besides the immediate point) He says certain angels left their first estate/abode/home (depending in translation) and were involved in an incident that he then equates with sexual immorality. The correlation to Gen.6 is unmistakeable. Furthermore, he quotes the Book of Enoch on another subject, lending credence to that book, and it is that book (Enoch) which goes into detail about the Gen.6 occurence, even to the giving of the names of the angels involved and the location they "came down".
 
Now guys, show me WHERE there are ANY angels refered to as The Sons of God. And I too have read much of the Apocrapha and find MUCH of it to be frought with words that I can put NO better description on than 'old wives tales'. I am sure that those that wrote them 'meant' well. But it is pretty obvious that much of it was speculation, guesses, fantasy wishes, and legends. For one to accept these books invalidates many of the ones that were chosen to be placed in the Bible, (perhaps that's why quite a few of them were denied such an important place).

MEC
 
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