I'll bring this over from the other thread.
Georgie,
Are we reading from the same Bible?
Yes...but from different perspectives....(right and wrong) :P
Are you reading closely? Because if you are I can't see how you can say James made the critical decisions at the council. Yes he was A (The)LEADER.
[1]
But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brethren, "Unless you are CIRCUMCISED according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved."
Pharisic Christians such as James, Peter, and the other disciples would have been Torah obeying Christians...this means circumcision for Jewish believers, as well as Prosylete Christians (the gentile "God Fearers" who were believers in Messiah who wanted to fully to Judaism (like the apostles).
What does it mean in Judasim to be saved? It meant that a believer will be raised to enter the Messianic kingdom...Pharisic Jews (Christians)believed that they would hold a superior postion in the Messianic kingdom.
And....that is precisely why Paul had Titus circumsized..
[2] And when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and debate with them, Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and the elders about THIS QUESTION.
Contrary to popular belief....Paul didn't go to Jerusalem to confront the elders....he was called to the carpet because he (Paul) was subverting the belief system that the Apostles were practicing....that is Mosaic Law observence..to proselyte God fearers who want to convert to Nazarene Judaism.
That would be the question of circumcision of the gentiles, Georgie. Paul couldn't resolve THIS QUESTION authoritatively. What happens regarding THIS QUESTION? Let's Check scripture Georgie. It might even tell us.
4] When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they declared all that God had done with them.
[5] But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up, and said, "It is necessary toCIRCUMSIZE THEM AND CHARGE THEM TO KEEP THE LAW OF MOSES."
No problem.....that is what the Church was practising...
[6] The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider THIS MATTER.
Have you thought about this verse...? They needed to get together to consider this...? If "circumcision" was a false issue they would have condemned it...immediately....
Once again the question put before the council in Acts 15 is regarding circumcision and the Law of Moses.
It's more of a "Law of Moses" issue...and keep in mind Paul's boy Luke is keeping the record....That's like Hillary keeping a bio of Bill.....
How does it get resolved?
7] And after there had been much debate, Peter rose and said to them, "Brethren, you know that in the early days God made choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.
[8] And God who knows the heart bore witness to them, giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us;
[9] and he made no distinction between us and them, but cleansed their hearts by faith.
[10] Now therefore why do you make trial of God by putting a yoke upon the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?
[11] But we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will."
[12] And all the assembly kept silence; and they listened to Barnabas and Paul as they related what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles.
Hmmm. Peter rises and silences them. Sounds like he is recieving respect from them. I don't see anywhere after this that circumcision is mentioned again. James then speaks.
Peter puts his two cents in.....I have no problem with that....Peter is a respected man in the council....he still isn't the final authority....think of him as an advisor to James....
13] After they finished speaking, James replied, "Brethren, listen to me.
[14] Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
[15] And with this the words of the prophets agree, as it is written,
[16] `After this I will return,
and I will rebuild the dwelling of David, which has fallen;
I will rebuild its ruins,
and I will set it up,
[17] that the rest of men may seek the Lord,
and all the Gentiles who are called by my name,
[18] says the Lord, who has made these things known from of old.'
[19] Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God,
[20] but should write to them to abstain from the pollutions of idols and from unchastity and from what is strangled and from blood.
[21] For from early generations Moses has had in every city those who preach him, for he is read every sabbath in the synagogues."
Gee Georgie, I don't see anything about circumcision and following the Law of Moses or any kind of decision that James made in that regard.
21] For from early generations Moses has had in every city those who preach him, for he is read every sabbath in the synagogues."
Thess...the Jews had a very aggressive Proselyte program....these are the gentiles that Paul found in the Synagogues throughout Asia Minor...as seen in Acts....These gentiles didn't come in to hear Paul preach...they were already there as "God Fearers" and had an interest in God through Judaic worship.
The proclaimation was made in hopes that once the Gentiles were able to cope with the laws as seen in verse 20 (milk), with the intent of following the entire Law (as applicable to Gentiles) as they grew.
He does make a statement about eating meat sacrificed to idols. That's not circumcision Georgie.
But it's not a proselyte conversion to Judaism either.....Do you think Paul enlightened the rest of the Apostles to the Circumcision issue...? Do you think Jewish Christians quit circumsizing? Consider Paul and Titus....Paul circumsized Titus himself....why? Jewish believers where required to follow Mosaic Law....Gentiles not...although if they wanted the same status, they proselyted to Judaism. Circumcision didn't/doesn't save, it identified/identifies you as being part of God's family by faith and obedience.. Abraham wasn't a Jew yet he and his family were circumcised.
